AD #1114 – OEMs Oppose EV Mandate, GM Builds EV Motor in U.S., War Between Metals

April 17th, 2013 at 11:56am

Runtime: 9:11

Two groups that represent every automaker selling vehicles in the United States file a petition to prevent a California mandate for electric cars and plug-in hybrids. GM starts building electric motors for the Spark EV at its plant in Baltimore. The steel and aluminum industries fight over which material is the most cost effective at reducing weight in cars. All that and more, plus host John McElroy responds to your comments and questions in this week’s edition of You Said It!


Visit our sponsors to thank them for their support of Autoline Daily: BorgWarner, Bridgestone and Dow Automotive Systems

»Subscribe to Podcast | iTunes | Zune | RSS | Listen on Phone Stitcher | YouTube

Welcome to Autoline Daily. And now, the news!

The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers and the Association of Global Automakers, which represent every automaker selling vehicles in the United States, filed a petition to prevent the California Air Resources Board from implementing its mandate for electric cars and plug-in hybrids. California wants 1.4 million sold in the state by 2025. Next year alone, the major automakers have to sell 60,000 electrics in California. Here’s my Autoline Insight. They can’t sell that many. As I’ve been saying for over a year, this mandate is a sales disaster for the auto industry. And it’s a global problem. They don’t sell well anywhere despite massive government subsidies. Another thing. Are EVs really that green when you measure their life-cycle carbon footprint? There’s a very interesting study that came out of Norway two months ago that points out it takes an enormous amount of energy to manufacture and recycle batteries and the power electronics in EVs. It says that the carbon footprint of EVs are barely better than gasoline powered cars in many situations and no better than diesels. The study was printed in the Journal of Science and you can find a link to it at the top of this story.

Even so, automakers have to proceed with EV development. GM started building electric motors at its plant in Baltimore. Before that, the motors were imported, but GM was awarded government funding to help build the motors in the U.S. They go in the new Spark EV, which is made in Korea, and goes on sale in June.

Speaking of General Motors, it topped Volkswagen in global sales during the first quarter of the year. GM’s sales hit 2.36 million units, a gain of 3.6 percent. Last week VW reported it sold 2.27 million vehicles in the first quarter. Toyota hasn’t reported its sales figures yet, so we’ll have to wait and see who the number one automaker is.

The steel and aluminum industries are fighting over which one is the most cost effective to reduce weight in cars. WorldAutoSteel, a group that represents global steel manufacturers, released a report saying steel frames in the near future can be as lightweight as aluminum and meet crash standards at a cost similar to today’s steel prices. At the same time, the aluminum industry says it can reduce body mass by 40 percent while helping to improve fuel economy by 18 percetn when combined with other mass savings and design changes.

There are plenty of American consumers that want and need a mid-size pickup truck. However, currently they can only choose between the Toyota Tacoma and Nissan Frontier. In an effort to win some of those consumers, General Motors announces it will return to the mid-size truck market next year with two trucks, it says, will be different in size than the Tacoma. We believe the truck will be a refresh of the Colorado that it builds in Thailand, which is the second largest pick-up market only to the U.S.

OK. It’s time for the Autoline Poll, except this installment is less of a poll and more of a quiz. We’re wondering how many people can correctly answer this standard test question from the DMV: You are approaching a school bus that has stopped on the other side of a divided highway. Do you (one) Stop and wait for it to load or unload children, (two) Stop, check for children, then proceed, (three) Stop and wait until the flashing red lights go off, or (four) Watch for children and be ready to stop. Answer by clicking the link under today’s show on, but NO CHEATING, this isn’t an “open book” test! We’ll reveal how many of you answered correctly on Friday’s show, and we’ll tell you how you scored compared to a survey conducted by

Coming up next, it’s time for You Said It!

Jim Kidd has heard us talking about autonomous cars and wants to know, “Where is the money for the autonomous car infrastructure going to come from?” Jim. The beauty of autonomous cars is that they don’t really need any infrastructure to operate. They can operate out on the street all on their own. You can enhance their autonomy with infrastructure, like diverting them away from traffic jams, but it’s not necessary. Besides, I believe we’ll see start-up companies providing services like that, not state or local governments.

C-Tech says, In regards to airbag recall: “Is there another airbag supplier in Japan? Given what reputation means in Japan and in the auto industry, could this mean a change in suppliers?” I’m guessing there is another supplier in Japan, but I don’t who that is. The one thing that is amazing in this airbag recall is how the Japanese automakers are crapping all over their supplier Takata. I have never in my life seen the Japanese OEMs so blatantly blame a supplier for a problem. I’m sure TRW in the United States and Autoliv out of Sweden and knocking on their doors to sell them as many airbags as they want.

Seth wants to comment on Ford gaining hybrid market share. “Ford could gain a lot more hybrid market share if were more serious about hybrids, and built more of them. I went by my local Ford dealership to test drive the C-max hybrid, and I was informed they didn’t have any on the lot. I passed by a Toyota dealership which had at least 15 prii on the lot. This is what I mean by Ford is not taking hybrids seriously.” Seth, automakers build to market demand, to what people are actually buying. The C-Max is a brand new vehicle that will take some time to build traffic. The Prius is the best selling hybrid in the world with 50 percent market share. The C-Max has 64 days of inventory, while the Prius has 73.

Roger T also has something to say about hybrids. “I have to disagree with many, as I believe hybrids are going to take off at some point. What I think car companies are doing wrong is that they’re not focusing on products people really enjoy.” I don’t know Roger, car companies are all about making money. They will build and sell more of whatever people are buying. And now they have the flexibility in their manufacturing plants to switch production to the hottest selling vehicles.

M360 watched Autoline After Hours last week and it changed his mind about blowers. “I loved your show about superchargers. I all along thought turbochargers were the way to go, but now I’m not so sure. Taking the load off the crankshaft is good.” You’re right M360 that is a good show, packed with lots of information on the future technology coming to superchargers. Only one problem. The Eaton Corporation has something like 95 percent market share in blowers and the car companies do not like to rely on a single source for a critical technology. This will either slow supercharger sales down or encourage other companies to get into the business.

Thanks for your comments and questions, we really like getting them. And speaking of that, remember to get your questions in early tomorrow for Autoline After Hours since we’ll be going live at 3:30 pm Eastern Time instead of our normal 6 pm. Our guest is David Johnson from Achates Power with their radically different engine design, so get your questions in early.

And that wraps up today’s show. please join us again here tomorrow.

Thanks to our Partners for embedding Autoline Daily on their websites: Autoblog and

Copy and Paste to send this poll to a friend:

83 Comments to “AD #1114 – OEMs Oppose EV Mandate, GM Builds EV Motor in U.S., War Between Metals”

  1. HtG Says:

    Did you mean to say, ‘wait for the red lights to begin flashing?’ “Go off” is a little ambiguous.

    Here’s a more real world example; You’re approaching an intersection where you have a STOP sign. As you stop, a pedestrian listening to his iPod is approaching the crosswalk in front of you without looking at your car or you. Do you wait for him to stop walking or acknowledge you, or do you proceed normally, risking the pedestrian’s safety? Answer; you give up and sell your Miata, because “frack it all to hell, that’s the last straw.”

    I’ve got more of these test questions, John. Guess what all the answers are.

  2. G.A.Branigan Says:

    I congratulate GM for bringing back the mid size twins.Want to own that segment? Want to kick the toyota tacomas ass? How about nissan’s frontier? Easy to do GM………….offer a diesel option right away.You already own 50% of VM Motori.Let’s get it done.Be first…..for a change.

  3. HtG Says:

    The correct answer to the bus question is whenever you’re in an area where there may be small and immature people, you drive carefully and scan for anyone wandering into the road, especially from around cars.

  4. HtG Says:

    Bring on the autonomous cars please, my work here is done.

  5. Phoenix Mark Says:

    Hey, GM what about the compact truck market, no competition there. And, yes GAB is right bring a diesel to the party.

  6. motorman Says:

    With the car US companies loosing $$$ on every EV they sell I don’t think they want to push them. This is all about making sure the envirowackos don’t bypass their other cars when when they are shopping for a new car EV or not. Remember when GM had a reputation of only building gas guzzler cars and trucks and it hurt their sales with the envirowackos.

  7. pedro fernandez Says:

    Had a conversation today with a 25 yr veteran car broker/salesman/manager about the business of used cars and he implored that I get a Toyota vehicle to replace mine when the time comes, he also showed me a list of over 150 trade-ins his bosses wanted him to take to auction and there were no Civics, Accords, Altimas, Camrys, or Yaris only one Mazda 2 the rest were gas guzzlers or Korean and European stuff that no one wants to buy used, according to him.

  8. HtG Says:

    Here’s what gets star internet commenter, HtG, all Herb Tarlek Torqued Up. Not all carcos have the same requirements for EVs. From Autonews…

    “California, the largest U.S. auto market, is requiring General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co., Chrysler Group LLC, Toyota Motor Corp., Nissan Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co. to sell a combined 60,000 plug-in, battery-electric and fuel-cell cars in the state through 2014.

    By 2018, the state’s zero-emission vehicle rules will extend to Hyundai Motor Co., Kia Motors Corp., Daimler AG, Volkswagen AG, BMW AG and Mazda Motor Corp.”

    Plus, it’s a nonsense that nuclear is environmentally friendly or economically viable. Just ask Amory Lovins, Autoline regular.

    The only thing that keeps me sane is the fact that Cali has unique weather due to the Pacifac and the mountains, which traps emissions. God Bless Ronald Reagan, CARB founder.

    (sorry about today’s sarcasm, HtG in a bit of a mood)

  9. HtG Says:

    7 can you talk about that a bit more, Pedro? Why buy a Toyota? People are rejecting certain makes?

  10. Earl Says:

    What’s with this Toyota Hi-Lux….sure a lot of them sold around the world. If Toyota or Scion can sell ‘two holers’ on wheels there just has to be a market for Hi-Lux’s

  11. Enn Norak Says:

    Regarding light-weight steel vs. aluminum, I’ll take aluminum every time unless the steel referred to is heavily galvanized or rust-free stainless steel. Thin steel subframes on unibody cars will quickly rust out rendering the vehicle unsafe at any speed.

  12. Buzzerd Says:

    I agree with you Branigan and don’t forget to give it at least a 61/2 foot box, you know something large enough to actually haul something.

  13. G.A.Branigan Says:

    @ 12: Yup.With the tailgate down,I can still haul 4×8 sheets of sssstuff ;}>

    @ Earl: The toyota hilux suffers the same malady as the taco does here…long in the tooth,no viable upgrades,and the same old tired diesel with again,no up grades.I know some folks from down under have moved on to better non-toyota ‘utes’.

  14. ColoradoKid Says:

    Poll Question ;

    In Colorado the law specifically states you stop until the bus driver has a) turned the flashing lights off … or more often ….b) the Driver has retracted the folding STOP sign all school buses in CO are required to have ..

    This poll is more than a bit problematic as no two States DMV’s have the exact same rules for much of anything beyond the basics


    8 – HtG – you want a real problem when it comes to CA and their EV mandates ?

    Try the fact that like CA’s water supply …. they Purchase some 75% of their electricity from other states ….. CA being firmly entrenched in the ” Not in My Backyard …. But in yours .. its Fine ” mentality

    Like to place a wild guess where a fair percentage of CA’s water & electricity . comes from ? …. Hint ; Same State that recently told CA where to stuff it when they tried to demand more and at a lower price last year ;-)


    GM’s ( cough ) sales success ; A bit of Perspective

    First off GM did not PASS VW … but is barely ( and I do mean barely ) staying in front of them by the skin of their Hens Teeth .

    Second – Have a look at VW’s sales vs GM’s 20 years ago . GM back then was Top Dog on the block with VW – Audi barely being a blip on the radar . Even Toyota back then was just beginning their ascent

    Now look at things . VW is closing down on GM like a hellbound freight train with Casey Jones 8) at the controls .. Toyota is and has been #1 for quite awhile … with GM languishing somewhere towards the bottom end of second … rapidly approaching third and below .

    That place a bit of perspective on todays news ?

  15. Kit Gerhart Says:

    …but Hilux is still the vehicle of choice for war lords in “third world” countries.

  16. Chuck Grenci Says:

    Agreeing with ‘G.A.’ on the diesel option (if bringing in the midsize pickup), also if they bring back two, one should be smaller than midsize (as the original concept was intended).

  17. C-Tech Says:

    @ #15 Well if the warlords could get F-150′s….

  18. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Even the Hilux keeps getting bigger. The current one is about the same width as the outgoing Colorado/Canyon, about 69 inches. Hilux was only ~64 inches wide as recently as 1988.

  19. C-Tech Says:

    Pedro is driving the Toyota bandwagon.

  20. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The F-150′s probably wouldn’t be as, well, bulletproof as the Hilux.

  21. Chuck Grenci Says:

    GM score ‘best interior’ for two vehicle (in the Wards interior awards); the XTS and the Spark. Congrats to them (should make Peter D. happy; he called it after test driving the XTS).

  22. ColoradoKid Says:

    HtG – Why buy a Toyota you ask ?

    Simple . Because unlike anything offered by the domestics as well as the foreigners it’ll out last its owner ( if maintained ) be reliable ( and if it isn’t unlike everyone else Toyota WILL stand behind it ) hold its value ( try doing that with any domestic ) and generally speaking be just a good drivable car and a good value for the $$$ ( unlike say a Hyundai/KIA that pretends to be but in fact is a cheap pile of parts on wheels )

    BTW HtG … as to that ‘ new ‘ ( cough hack ) Protean motor hub technology … forgot to mention ….. it isn’t ( new in the slightest ) Ferdinand Porsche did it over a century ago ( 1900 – 1905 )

    Truly when it comes to the automobile these days …. there is Nothing New under the Sun … or as Alex Moulton was once quoted as saying ; ” Its like they keep reinventing the Model T only now in carbon & fiber titanium

  23. ColoradoKid Says:

    17 …… they’d say a resounding NO THANKS as the F150 wouldn’t last six months in the conditions the Hilux is exposed to in those areas .

    Suffice it to say not even a US Overlander choses an F150 over a Toyota ….. precisely because …. like those war lords ( or lords of war ) your life is dependent on the vehicle you drive …. and no one’s going to trust their lives in those situations to an F150

  24. Drew Says:

    7. Every dealership decides which trade-ins to keep for their used lot and which to send to auction based on the likely shopping patterns and sales potential. That is, there is a bit of parochialism — a customer who may not afford a new Brand X, may be retained by offering a CPO Brand X.

    So, I would be careful about interpretting the words from the 25-year salesperson.

  25. HtG Says:

    22 I was interested in what Pedro heard from the person moving the iron, CK.

  26. pedro fernandez Says:

    HtG his point is that the network of dealerships he works for (about 15 of them) send to auction whatever they don’t think they can sell, and keep what sells well, that is why there were none of those cars I mentioned on the bye bye list, I mentioned a used Korean or domestic small car for me and he told me under normal use ok, but with my amount of driving and miles I pile on, I should stick with Toy or Honda or even certain Nissan models would be fine, he traded in a BMW 6 cause it cost over a grand to replace a valve cover gasket, so he got himself an ES 350 used of course! BTW he offered to help me find at auction either an Yaris or Corolla when I’m ready!

  27. pedro fernandez Says:

    This guy went from sales to manager to broker over a 25 yr period. I think he has enough experience and knowledge at the retail end of the business.

  28. ColoradoKid Says:

    25 – Mea culpa

  29. pedro fernandez Says:

    People still are looking for something that will be usable after the 6 yr loan is paid up, he even suggested that if I don’t care about looks, to buy a damaged by hail car (half the price of a comparable car) and just replace the glass and the hell with the sheetmetal. That would be hard for my wife to accept, I wouldn’t have any problems with it.

  30. HtG Says:

    28 tsariiight, CK. :)

    “…when you’re ready…,” huh, Pedro. But sheezus, a grand for a cover gasket on the BMW? I think it’s an hour labor and a 50 dollar parts kit on a Miata. Run for your lives!!!!

  31. Buzzerd Says:

    C/K for a guy who wants us all to believe you’re the all mighty auto expert I’m surprised you continue to spout old tired lines about how much better toyota is than all the other brands. Give it a rest already.

  32. C-Tech Says:

    It is true that Toyota and Honda have built a reputation for reliability, there are some a few vehicles in each line I would stay away from used because of the type of owner modifications you’ll likely to find on them. I also believe there will be a few domestic vehicles which people will find a used car steal becuase they are reliable transportation (if not exciting) and do not carry a Toyota or Honda nameplate.

  33. pedro fernandez Says:

    Well. it is a BMW and those parts ain’t cheap I guess, that is why he bailed out at 65k miles even though he says it was an incredible driving experience, then go down to a mundane ES, ou have to wonder!

  34. pedro fernandez Says:

    Recent case I know of, young guy buys a 5-6 yr old Sonata, great condition, low miles, really good price, happy as a strip club talent scout, then BOOM!!! engine blown, car to junkyard had it only 18 mos.

  35. ColoradoKid Says:

    Buzzerd – For a guy trying in vain to contradict me or prove me wrong the hard core Facts & Statistics have you at the very Wrong end of the stick site mate … so give it a rest yourself good sir lest I need to offer up a bit of mustard or ketchup for that foot you’re about to swallow ;-)

  36. ColoradoKid Says:

    #32 …. +1

  37. C-Tech Says:

    Depending on the dealership, and whether they are part of a chain, really determines what gets kept or sent to auction. I worked at one dealer that sent NOTHING to auction. It was sold on a new car lot or “reconditioned” and sold on the “budget” (read BHPH) lot.

  38. pedro fernandez Says:

    #35 that is why every mechanic, broker, I’v ever spoken to steer me towards another Toyota and away from others, the broker from today told me that even the Mazda 2 which I like, was “una mierda” (I think CK gets this) and here I thought it was a possibility for the next Pedro Mobile.

  39. C-Tech Says:

    @ #34 My cousin swears by Hyundai. He has had 4 and was and early adopter. His Sonata has 200K on it.

  40. pedro fernandez Says:

    #37 this chain is called Germain and they got about a dozen stores in SW Fl luxury and regular brands as well, I believe they also have stores in Ohio, this guy was telling me that there is mucho money in Naples and they cater to a well-off clientele.

  41. ColoradoKid Says:

    This is going to hurt GM’s back pocket … big time I’m afraid ;

    IMO if I were running the show ( GM ) I’d take the full monty hit now and close down Opel/Vauxhall completely . Sure short term it’d hurt like ___ but in the long run GM would benefit from not having that Opel/Vauxhall anchor hanging around its neck

  42. kevin Says:

    why make a hybrid that goes from 38mpg to getting 44mpg I mean who really wants to drive them. Take a SUV or pickup and double the around town mileage and it will sell especially work trucks.Hell i might stay off the highway and use the back roads more, leading to less rush hour traffic on freeways.LOL Where is the common sense.

  43. C-Tech Says:

    @ #41 Let me pose this question to you, not a criticism, to get yours and others feedback. If GM were to close the plants and just launch Opels/Vauxhall vehicles sourced from around the world, would Europeans accept it? This cuts their costs, eliminates duplicate vehicles and keeps a present in Europe. What is yor opinion?

  44. HtG Says:

    41 When I heard GM was going to be spending $5B on Opel, severance and plant closing was one thing I thought.

  45. HtG Says:

    42 They don’t look at industry as only there to make money. It’s about social cohesion as well. The unions are on the board for Pete sake.

  46. HtG Says:

    42 Oh, and saving the bankers’ bacon while tossing everyone else into the austerity pit. How could I leave that out?

    (yes, bad mood today)

  47. C-Tech Says:

    Isn’t this the second time California bureaucrats have tried to impose an electric car mandate on manufacturers?

  48. Kit Gerhart Says:

    There are two “most boring car in the world” Impalas at my condo with over 250K miles, and from what the owners say, both have been reliable. One has the 3800 engine, and the only semi-major problem has been a water pump. The other has a 3.5, part of the engine family notorious for manifold gaskets failing, and getting coolant in the oil. That happened once on his car, but he caught it before there was any engine damage. Other than that, no major problems with either car.

  49. Kit Gerhart Says:

    42, Kevin says:
    “why make a hybrid that goes from 38mpg to getting 44mpg I mean who really wants to drive them.”

    In the case of a Prius, if you have quite a bit of stop and go driving, you get 45 mpg under conditions that similar size cars with conventional power trains get about half that. In highway driving, the percentage advantage in fuel economy is smaller, but it is still substantial.

    As far as “who really wants to drive them,” quite a few people want to, and are among the most satisfied car owners around. This also applies to Fusion and Camry hybrid owners.

    Yeah, a pickup of SUV with a serious hybrid power train, like a scaled up version of what Toyota and Ford use in cars, would be great for people who have a reason to drive pickups and SUV’s in stop and go driving.

  50. Mike Says:

    Last time I needed a new vehicle I went to the Ford place and asked for a simple 5 speed manual, 4 cylinder Ranger. The salesman says “Oh… Well…no one buys that truck!” Err…I do. I wanted the 29 mpg, the utility and the reliability. GM cancelled the Colorado/Canyon after it flopped as a replacement for the S-10. I think the problem here is that the OE’s do not want to be in what they see as low margin vehicles.They make out a lot better on the 4WD versions and the extended cab versions but by the time they get there you might as well have bought a full size.

  51. G.A.Branigan Says:

    kalifornia can mandate anything they want to except the most important part….making people buy the damn things,(ev’s).They are too expensive,and charging up in cally will only get tougher with more that need charging.As CK pointed out,cally talks out of one mouth for clean this and clean that,yet don’t produce what they need.Water=Colorado River AZ,Electric=Palo Verde Nuke plant AZ.

  52. G.A.Branigan Says:

    Were I to want a car,I would look at the Cruze diesel,or the Ford Focus.And probably go with the Cruze diesel.Just saying….

  53. john897 Says:

    I read somewhere that the looks of the new Colorado and Canyon has not been publicized, yet….and that it will not look like anyone has seen, yet. In any case, it’s claimed it will look much different than the existing models. So much that it may get different names.

  54. Kit Gerhart Says:

    New names would be advisable, given the not-so-good reputation of the previous Colorado/Canyon.

  55. ColoradoKid Says:

    The Compact Luxury SUV surge ;

    And yet another enters the fray ..

    Yes … we knew this was on the horizon … but here it is in its ‘ official ‘ form .

    Though as this and many articles have been saying …. these ( not wagons Kit … sorry ) are the wave of the future Worldwide .. I’m none too pleased about Mercedes tossing this into the mix . Why … is …. to put it simply …. like many others I fear this move ( as well as several others coming down the pike ) will only serve to cheapen Mercedes image in this ultra badge conscious country of ours


    #43 – A most excellent question C-Tech …. one I’m surprised no one else has asked/is asking . The sad fact is …. though I’m sure the GMophiles on site would be loath to admit this is that OPEL/Vauxhall sales have been in the toilet for over a decade . Truth of the matter is in Jolly Old ( UK ) Vauxhalls are looked down upon as the ‘ White Trash ‘ ( their words not mine ) alternative whereas in Germany and the EU OPEL has been little more than a Sidebar and an automotive laughing stock … so truth be known I doubt if GM were to shutter both ….. do a Ford and simply have the GM brand worldwide … no one ( other than the employees ) would miss them one bit or care .

    Sad fact also is its the same in Australia with Holden .. no one cares anymore ( with the additional factor of the Aussie government not caring even less and cutting off all subsidies )

    Would EU/UK buyers accept the GM brand though assuming GM did close down OPEL/Vauxhall ? At this point with their economy rapidly on the wane ….. I doubt it short term …. long term though would be purely dependent on GM finally getting its act together as Ford is slowly doing ( other than Lincoln ) and coming up with products that are TRULY World Class … rather than the one round of pretense after another they’ve been feeding us ( US w/Cadillac/Chevy/GMC/Buick ) and them ( EU/UK/AUS w/Opel/Vauxhall/Holden )

    IMO of course … ;-)

  56. ColoradoKid Says:

    C-tech – 47 – Yup ! Nice bunch of fascists those hard core California ‘ socialists ‘ are rapidly evolving into …. aren’t they ;-)

    Oh …. but wait a minute … Fascists and Socialists are one in the same in one respect . Both think THEY know best how you should run your life … and will take any steps needed to enforce their viewpoint . As mi Italian Bisnonno used to say ” The Only thing worse than a Fascist is in fact … a Socialist ”

    Basta . Va bene’ Ciao 8)

  57. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I guess since Mercedes now wants to compete with Hyundai with the CLA, they need a “crossover” to go with it. Kind of sad.

    As far as Opel/Vauxhall’s troubles, and Ford having all those world-class products, take a look at that link posted yesterday:

    Ford is doing even worse in Europe than GM. I agree, though, that GM has too many brands in Europe, and they should probably forget trying to sell any North American products in Europe, except specialty cars like Corvette.

  58. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I, for one, am very glad those California fascist/socialists decided years ago that it would be nice if we could semi-safely breath the air in American cities, and not have our eyes water if we stepped outside. When GM owned half the market, and Ford and Chrysler owned most of the rest, they sure as hell weren’t going to clean up the air without being forced to, and California led the cleanup, followed by the rest of the U.S., and then by the rest of the developed world.

    Yeah, they have gone too far at times, including now, but we can thank them for a lot. IMHO, or course.

  59. Alex Kovnat Says:


    I too, am shocked, angry and opposed to this kind of arbitrary dictating of public preferences. I see nothing but harm coming out of this demand by California’s state government. Are they not satisfied that they forced a 50+ CAFE mandate upon our entire country? Is there no limit to their appetite for power? And speaking of power: Is California willing to accept nuclear power to meet the demand for kilowatt-hours that a vast increase in electric car usage would lead to? Or do they expect windmills to supply all the electricity they need?

    I ask members of the entertainment community who support the above mandate: Are YOU willing to drive around in (not just purchase) an electric vehicle? Or do you think you’re too good to have to do what you expect from us common, everyday folk?

  60. Bob In Atlanta Says:

    John – How about having C/K as a guest on AAH some evening? (Just a random thought probably best left unwritten.)

  61. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The automakers opposed emission controls too, and seat belts, and safety glass, and dual circuit brakes. I could go on.

    As far as power, most electric cars are charged overnight, when there is less load on the grid and generating stations than at other times. Unless there are more electric cars than anyone projects, the current electric grid in CA will be ok, if other electric usage doesn’t increase too much.

    As far as entertainment people, some of them will drive electric cars, just as some of the drive Priuses, and others drive Rolls-Royces.

  62. G.A.Branigan Says:

    @ Kit: Don’t say the electric grid in CA. will be okay,even at night.I know different from experience,especially in the summer and they go through their rolling blackouts.The more ev’s charging (or trying to charge) at night,the more grid overloads will happen UNTIL the infrastructure is overhauled,as with most cities.

  63. G.A.Branigan Says:

    Southern cally taxes more then one source (power plant)for energy.It is a big mess,and the hell of it is,it’s getting bigger.I personally don’t care if they blow all their fuses and roast their liberal asses off,lol.It is their mess,one of their own making.

  64. W L Simpson Says:

    # 11, the CUV full length box beams are dipped, not sprayed.I had to buy full lengths to replace the front 3 ft . 2010 Terrain had squarely
    T- boned a semi dually wheel.

  65. HtG Says:

    My Bad, Off Topic

    Today, I scared someone driving toward me as I came around a turn. I was late apexing and had placed my inside tire very close to the yellow double line. All under control, I saw them for a good distance, but to the other person I think it looked like I was coming right them.

    Don’t scare people.

  66. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Yeah, they will probably need to have rates based on time of day, to encourage people to charge cars truly “at night,” as in during “bed time,” and after the prime AC period. If people charge their electric cars from after bed time until before dawn, the CA grid will be fine, given that the number of plug-in cars will be a very low percentage of the fleet for many years to come.

  67. Kit Gerhart Says:

    They don’t have rolling blackouts at 2:00 am.

  68. Paul Phelps Says:

    Regarding the lack of EVs and Hybrids on many lots:
    My dealer indicated there’s a large investment required for a dealership to be allowed to sell these vehicles. They have to train their mechanics, buy special test gear and install a charging station before they can order vehicles that there is little market for. Why bother?

  69. ColoradoKid Says:


    Actually …. they do .. rather regularly come the height of summer .. except at night they’re called ‘ brown outs ‘ or ‘ power outages ‘ in order to appease the deluded masses there

    And as a reminder … CA Purchases some 75% of their electricity from other states specifically because they don’t want power plants in their own back yards … Yours or mine’s just fine … but not theirs . Which is 60% of the reason CA is on the verge of total bankruptcy despite all their so called billions in revenue

    CA is IMO a ” Victim Mentality ” State … e.g. Looking to everyone else to finance and solve Their problems ( pollution etc ) rather than do something about it themselves ( build mass transit in LA area etc )

    CO recently was the first of many states to come to tell CA exactly where they could shove it … we needing OUR electricity and water more than their rapidly decreasing money.. Oregon and WA being next up on the list as everyones patience is wearing thin when it comes to CA

    Personally ….. I lived there …. far too long IMO …. made the most money I’ll probably ever make for the rest of my life ….. but I’ll guarantee you there’s not enough money on the entire planet to get me back to that 8th level ( for politically correct- drug addled – deluded – pie in the sky -self proclaimed victims ) of Dante’s Inferno

    California – As Gallager so often has said … its like a bowl of granola … cause …

    ” What aint Fruits & Nuts .. is Flakes “

  70. ColoradoKid Says:

    61 – BTW … thats a myth/bold faced lie being put forth by the proponents and supporters of EV’s that has no basis in Fact what so ever

    ConEd , PG&E , NEG&E etc etc across the nation have proven that myth to be nothing more than abject propaganda on the part of the EV faithful

  71. ColoradoKid Says:


    + 1 !!!

    and …..

    No they are not willing to accept ANY form of power plant in their backyards ( I’m in the entertainment business and can state that for a fact )

    And yes they do ( think they and their state are a hell of a lot better than you )

    Also I’ll be posting a question today for John and the ALD team related to the CA debate that I really hope they’ll take the time to research/answer … if there is an answer to be had

  72. HtG Says:

    68 “It’s about who can do what to whom,”-Lenin

  73. Kit Gerhart Says:

    There may have been a few overnight blackouts during the worst of the market manipulation of the early 2000′s, but people I know in CA have never experienced them, either in southern CA, or the Bay area.

    Yes, we well know what you think of electric cars.

  74. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Regarding “not in my back yard,” I am amazed that NIMBY seems not to apply with fertilizer plants in Texas. When seeing those pictures, I couldn’t believe they would put that facility right in a town, near homes, schools, and a nursing home.

    Around 30 years ago, an ammonia distribution facility was being built in central Indiana near me, and they made it a point to put the facility away from homes, etc.

  75. C-Tech Says:

    @ #73 Please keep in mind, Houston and much of Texas has little, if any zoning laws.

  76. G.A.Branigan Says:

    Less then a year ago:

  77. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The possible blackouts are during the daytime and evening, not during the middle of the night. There is plenty of power capacity from 11:00 pm to 6:00 or 7:00 am, so that is when EV’s should be charged. If you would need to charge during mid-day, you are not the right customer for an EV in CA.

  78. G.A.Branigan Says:

    @ Kit: yes,you are right….up until there are thousands of ev’s plugged in from 2300hrs till 0600 hrs.Which is the point I have tried to make.Their power ‘system’ is taxed pretty much to max…..right now.Even during those hours you cited they have brown-outs,not out right power outages,which btw cause more damage then power spikes.

  79. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Yeah, I agree. There will be a problem if there are hundreds of thousands of EV’s, but as we all know, that is not going to happen any time soon.

  80. G.A.Branigan Says:

    Not even ‘hundreds of thousands’…..just thousands,and that is not inconceivable in cally,our most populated state.

  81. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Thousands, if they are all in the same community. Hundreds of thousands, if they are scattered around the state.

    Also, the situation would be much worse if a lot of people “fast charge” them at around the same time, pulling lots of power, as opposed to slow charging them over 6-8 hours.

  82. G.A.Branigan Says:

    Another thing Kit,with all the sunshine in that state solar would be great for a charging system (using storage batteries)could really offset the grid drain too.Unfortunately that is a luxury only the well to do can afford.

  83. stas peterson Says:

    Why would I want to ask the self-educated marxist Amory, aka the mass murderer, Lovins a damn thing?

    That jackass, ruined the PGNV when he demanded that it be built out of carbon fiber and raised the price by $500K/copy,making it wholly impractical.

    But his real stupidity was to convince Mao Tsetung that to rapidly industrialize China he should order the peasants to stop farming, and build “backyard blast furnaces” instead.

    Mao did so, and produced ptoduced tons of slag and some 20 million peasants starved to death that next winter.