AD #1201 – VW Wants Diesel Incentives, Detroit Electric Delayed, Jeep #1 Chinese Import

August 26th, 2013 at 11:56am

Runtime: 7:30

Volkswagen is ticked off that American legislators will not provide any incentives for diesel vehicles. Detroit Electric had planned on building its SP:01 sportscar by now, but according to reports production will be delayed. Jeep passes one major German automaker as the #1 importer into China. All that and more, plus how the shape and size of a car’s badge can impact styling.

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Welcome friends to a brand new week of Autoline Daily.

VW WANTS U.S. DIESEL INCENTIVES
We start off today talking about diesels, specifically in the U.S. market. Volkswagen is ticked off that American legislators will not provide any incentives for diesels even though they can play a critical role helping automakers meet CAFE regulations and reduce CO2 emissions by 30 percent. Anna Schneider, the vice president of government affairs at Volkswagen of America, points out that unlike plug-in hybrid or electric cars, there are no federal tax incentives to buy diesels. None from the states, either. Plus, the federal tax on diesel fuel is 6 cents higher than it is on gasoline. Heck, she points out, you can’t even drive in the high occupancy lanes. And the way the EPA calculates fuel efficiency favors hybrids over diesels. Even so, Anna Schneider admits she doesn’t see any legislative action coming that would help diesel sales.

DIESELS GROWING FAST
Even so, diesel sales are growing fast. So far this year they hit 278,000 vehicles up more than 10 percent, which means they’re growing faster than the overall market. Last year there were only 20 different vehicles that offered a diesel engine. Before this year is out there will be 40 models and by 2017 there will be 60. By comparison there are already 52 hybrid, plug-in and electric models in the U.S., according to Ward’s.

AUDI’S NEW V6 DIESEL
Audi is introducing a redesigned V6 diesel in the U.S. market. With thin wall castings, a magnesium oil pan, hollow camshafts, a squatter head and fewer chain drives, it’s 55 pounds lighter than the version it replaces. It also puts out 15 more horsepower, hitting 240 hp, and 22 more pound feet of torque, hitting 428 lb-ft. A high-pressure injection system using piezo injectors actually uses five separate injections to minimize noise and improve emissions. I just got a chance to test drive this engine in the A6, the A7 and the Q5 and can attest that this is a remarkably quiet, efficient and powerful engine.

NISSAN ADDS ANOTHER HYBRID
Nissan is going to offer hybrid versions of the next-generation Murano and Rogue. According to Green Car Reports, the new versions of the cars are expected to go on sale sometime next year but the hybrid models likely won’t show up until 2015. Not many other details are known but they are expected to have the same hybrid system as the Pathfinder Hybrid, that supercharged system with the 2.5 liter gasoline engine.

DETROIT ELECTRIC DELAYED AGAIN
Back in March when the Detroit Electric nameplate was revived and it debuted its SP:01 sportscar, we were told the company would be building the car by now. But according to the Detroit News, that’s not happening yet. Detroit Electric has not finalized an agreement for a manufacturing facility. And one company executive suggests its negotiating with another company that could impact its business strategy and timing, whatever that means. We’ll let you know what’s happening as soon as we hear about it.

JEEP #1 CHINESE IMPORT
Jeep is turning into a hot brand in China. In fact, more Jeeps are now imported to China than any other brand. In fact, Jeep just passed BMW. Overall, imported vehicles were up close to 20 percent in July surpassing 120,000 units. And that despite a hefty tax on all imported vehicles, with an additional tax on those made in the USA.

Hey, did you ever think about how the shape and size of a car’s badge can dictate the front end styling? It’s all got to do with Cadillac’s desire to redesign its badge and that is coming up next.

BADGE LOGO IMPACTS STYLING
On Autoline After Hours last week, Bob Boniface from the Cadillac design studio was talking about how they might redesign the Cadillac logo and it triggered a discussion about how a logo can actually impact the styling of a car. Take a look.

(Clip about how a badge logo can impact styling can only be viewed in the video version of today’s show.)

You can catch that entire interview at Autoline.tv, and then join us this Thursday when Jeff Luke, the chief engineer for the Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra stops by the studio.

But that wraps up today’s report. Thanks for watching, we’ll see you tomorrow.

Thanks to our Partners for embedding Autoline Daily on their websites: Autoblog and WardsAuto.com

90 Comments to “AD #1201 – VW Wants Diesel Incentives, Detroit Electric Delayed, Jeep #1 Chinese Import”

  1. Mike Says:

    I suspect the lack of incentives on diesel passenger vehicles is something of a legacy from the GM disaster of the early 80′s. The public perception of diesels orginates from that time and includes “smelly, black soot, clanky, and messy”. For diesels to really take off, that perception will need to change. In talking to friends recently, the fact that the diesel fuel is more expensive had more visibility than the 30% fuel economy increase that comes with it. Mike

  2. G.A.Branigan Says:

    LOL….looks like my (diesel) world is vastly improving.The new technology they are putting into them is,at least for me,#1 in ‘WOW’ factor.

  3. Ron Paris Says:

    No government incentives on diesels? Here’s a novel concept: why not remove incentives on all forms of electrified vehicles as well and let everyone fight it out on a level playing field in the marketplace. BTW VW, the fact that diesel sales are growing at 10% per year in the US is not much of an argument for more government meddling!

  4. Brett Says:

    Gosh, I wonder if the “Free Market” would’ve ever brought us seat belts, emission controls, or decent fuel mileage? Without all that pesky “government meddling”, I’d have to guess… never.

  5. G.A.Branigan Says:

    @ Mike: With all the different forums and places I read about the automotive world,very few ever mention that ‘GM disaster’.In fact,the younger crowd never heard of it.I seriously doubt that it is holding anyone back from buying one.And at 278k in sales so far,I would say most people don’t give a damn about it either.

  6. pedro fernandez Says:

    You want incentives on diesel? why not cut back some taxes on the fuel itself, make it as cheap as unleaded reg and it won’t be a deterrent for people looking to buy a diesel powered vehicle.

  7. ColoradoKid Says:

    Incentives this … incentives that ….. WTH ever happened to the so called Free Market system where you put a product out at your own expense and if it fails ….. T.S. …. Elliot !

    ————

    Detroit Electric – Lets face it . I’ve got a better chance of becoming more famous than ol Slow Hand and having a bigger car collection than Jay Leno than Detroit Electric has of ever even having their joke of a car make it to the market place …. never mind actually succeeding

    ———

    Ron Paris #3

    ” the fact that diesel sales are growing at 10% per year in the US is not much of an argument for more government meddling! ”

    +1 … and then some !!!!!

    ——-

    Cadillac – Yeah …. like redesigning the freakin emblem on the snout’ll help what is still an over priced EU/Jap wanna be’s sales .

    Hows about addressing the REAL issues Cadillac ( and GM in general ) instead of wasting a lot of time and ( our ) money with irrelevant fluff !

  8. ColoradoKid Says:

    6 – Double +1 !!!!!

  9. Tony Gray Says:

    I kind of like the way the Caddy logo mirrors the grille design. Not too bad. And I was earlier bemoaning the loss of the crest.

  10. G.A.Branigan Says:

    @ #3: Obamaination loves electric cars and hybrids.That’s why he wanted incentives.he neither knows,nor cares that they can and will put a strain on our ancient electric grid,lack of charging stations etc/infrastructure and so on.

  11. Kit Gerhart Says:

    re. diesels,
    What the U.S. needs is for the refineries to adjust diesel vs. gas capacity so diesel will cost about the same as regular, rather than 10%+ more than regular, as is now typical. Also, other companies need to join VW, and the automatic sedan-only Cruze in selling high mpg diesels in the U.S.

    I guess there are a lot of diesels now on the market, but most of them are big trucks and SUV’s that are thirsty, even with the diesels.

  12. Kit Gerhart Says:

    36,
    Yeah, the tax should be the same, but the 6 cents a gallon difference is insignificant.

    The big difference is that the refiners have excess capacity for making gasoline vs diesel. It takes a little more crude to make a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gas, but not as much more as the prices reflect.

  13. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Oops, meant #6, not 36.

  14. pedro fernandez Says:

    Isn’t diesel fuel made from left-over petroleum from gasoline refineries? if so I don’t get wy it has to cost so damn much!

  15. Kit Gerhart Says:

    #4, Brett +10

  16. Wim van Acker Says:

    #1, #5: perception in the 80′s and those who remember those years are undoubtedly related to GM’s poorly performing diesel powered vehicles. But, for the current potential buyers in their 20′s, 30′s and early 40′s reality and therefore perception is BMW, Mercedes and Audi diesel powered premium cars and SUV’s with phenomenal performance, ride and handling.

    Based on those merits over time I expect the share of diesel powered vehicles to become significant in the U.S. market. Especially if government incentives on hybrids are reduced (my preference) or incentives for diesel powered vehicles are introduced.

  17. Lex Says:

    If GM is willing to redesign the Caddy Logo, what about the Chevy Logo? That Bowtie in any color or size is just old looking! Why not adapt the Chevy Corvette racing flags or a simple Global Logo like the ones used on the Chevy Geo vehicles as a new logo for the Chevrolet Brand. I Think men do not have a problem with the current Chevy Bowtie Logo. Chevy’s racing heritage and Nascar make it cool for men. However, I believe most women feel it denotes low prestige vehicles IMO.

    Circular Logo’s like Mercedes Benz, BWM and Audi are more desirable to women. Even the new Infinite Q50 and it’s circular logo and sleek muscular styling are attractive to the female consumers. I believe it is well known that women have a major influence in what vehicles and bands are purchased for the American Household.

  18. Kit Gerhart Says:

    #14,
    The refineries have “cracking” reactors to make more gasoline from the crude, and there is not enough diesel/jet/heating oil stock left to have the right mix of fuels.

    As far as actual processing and additives, it is more expensive for gas than diesel, but you need the right mix of base stock of the fuels.

  19. Jon M Says:

    Well I can’t say I’m ticked-off; however, I have to agree with Anna Schneider’s take on the incentives–that is, the lack thereof–on diesels. I would possibly buy one if the vehicle I wanted had the option. Diesels are certainly a worthy alternatives to hybrids and EVs. My guess is that the current government is still trying to convince us that WE ABSOLUTELY WANT a hybrid/EV and/or they still envision the smelly, obnoxious diesels of yore. Regardless, for all I know incentives on diesels may have the same effect they do on hybrid/EVs. It just makes sense to me to offer the same or similar incentives on diesels.

  20. pedro fernandez Says:

    In my 60 yrs I have yet to meet anyone who purchased any vehicle based on a logo, I could care less what the heck the Toyota logo looks like, as long as the vehicle satisfies my needs.

  21. ColoradoKid Says:

    G.A. Branigan

    A little DC insiders info ….

    ObamaClaus and his Democrat cronies aren’t just ” in love” with EV’s …. they are to a number personally heavily invested in them … ;-) *

    Don’t get me wrong … I aint no Republican or Tea Party mind you … but what the Dems are doing with OUR money when it comes to EV’s and why has me up in arms !!!

    * this is a matter of public record …. if you know where to look …

  22. G.A.Branigan Says:

    Offhand I would say that for folks that live and work in and around a city would be prone to a hybrid.I would also say that folks that live out in the country would be more inclined to buy a diesel as they are more familiar with their attributes.And finally,with a diesel there is no ‘lack of infrastructure’ to worry about along with range anxiety.

  23. Lex Says:

    When Diesels powered vehicles are only marginally more expensive than Gasoline powered models will you see an increase in sales for North America. Currently the climate is that diesel powered vehicles and diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline powered vehicles and gasoline which is not a winning combination to most American consumers.

  24. ColoradoKid Says:

    20 – And yet another + 1 plus for today . Racking em up left and right this morning ( here ) Pedro !

  25. Bradley Says:

    Subaru please sell your diesel in the united states.

    Chevy Bow Tie, it is distinguishable and simple. Typically I like logos with those traits. For some reason I want to agree it needs a redo.

  26. Ron Paris Says:

    Yes Brett (#4), I’ve thought it over and, like you, I’m SO glad the government rushed in and saved us all from ourselves in the nick of time. Guess I just lost sight of how stupid and helpless we all are for a moment there!

  27. pedro fernandez Says:

    This logo thing reminds me of this particular Youtube auto reviewer who makes a big deal about what the key looks like, if the glove box is damped and lined with felt, if the window has auto up and down, soft touch dash etc etc such insignificant crap that I can’t believe people really care about!

  28. M360 Says:

    #20 – I agree with you. Such a discussion of the proper emblem or logo seems to be another waste of time and money. But consider the source. They are used to wasting time and money.

  29. ColoradoKid Says:

    #23 …………….. except for Mercedes Benz who’ve actually brought over the GLK 250D at a – lower – cost than its gasoline sibling ….

    Doesn’t do much for the price of diesel fuel unfortunately … along with the loss of a spare tire due to the location of the Urea tank … as well as the additional cost of replacing the urea …. which in combination is what convinced me not to trade the gasoline version in on one

    ——–

    Bradley – 25 – All bets are …… Subaru will ;-)

  30. Kit Gerhart Says:

    #23,
    Also, when companies other than VW sell “affordable” diesel cars in a variety of body styles, there will be a lot more sold.

    If Toyota sold a car with the Prius body and a ~2 liter, ~140hp diesel, it would get 60+ mpg at moderate highway speed, and still get 50+ at 75-80 mpg. They could probably sell a car like that for $2K less than they can sell the Prius hybrid. I would certainly consider a car like that, and I suspect a lot of people would buy a Camry diesel, if they sold it in the U.S. A lot of people just don’t trust VW, and they are about the only game in town with diesel cars, except for the much more expensive stuff from BMW, Audi, and Mercedes.

  31. Kit Gerhart Says:

    20, 24,
    Come on, we all know that people buy Benzes for the three pointed star, and BMW’s for the roundel.

    No, CK, I’m not talking about you. From things you’ve said, I know you would rather not have the star be so conspicuous.

  32. Kit Gerhart Says:

    28,
    ..and the 350 is still peppier and quieter, is it not? And the 350 is even available RWD.

  33. pedro fernandez Says:

    I do know of one logo which gets stolen often around here and that is the red Honda logo which has some meaning to the tuner crowd and they love to steal it whenever they get a chance to do so!

  34. Kit Gerhart Says:

    31,
    ..but the diesel GLK does get substantially better mpg than the gasser, 33% better combined EPA rating, 28 vs 21.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34302&id=34232

  35. HtG Says:

    The article on VW and diesel indicates that the govt is motivated by tech that will reduce CO2 and oil dependence. That’s why diesel won’t get much luv, and their lobbyist may have met an immovable force. My strategery mind wonders if Ms. Schneider is having trouble getting VW corporate to start making better donations to a few re-election campaigns.

  36. pedro fernandez Says:

    Perhaps re-starting that Pa assembly plant to build diesel Rabbits for the No American markets.

  37. Wim van Acker Says:

    #14: the following may be too much information, so please disregard if it is.

    Crude oil is hundreds of millions of years old. Straight-chain molecule chains are stable that long, anything else, such as circular molecular chains, is not. Diesel fuel consists solely of straight-chain molecules, gasoline consists of a blend of straight-chain and circular chain molecules. Petroleum or crude oil is a blend of straight-chain hydrocarbon molecules, ranging from one carbon atom (methane, or natural gas) to hundreds (bitumen, or “asphalt). Diesel fuel is a petroleum distillate and gasoline has to be made by adding the aromates (circular molecule chains through converting straight-chain molecules into circular molecules. Diesel fuel is a fraction of straight-chain molecules with seven or eight carbon atoms (please note that I graduated as an engineer in 1983 and this is just what I remember, so I may be off a few carbon atoms). Gasoline is produced by adding the circular molecule chains through either catalytic conversion or catalytic cracking of petroleum distillates.

    In itself it is easier to produce diesel fuel than gasoline, but that does not mean that diesel fuel should therefore be cheaper than gasoline: there are highly complex transfer pricing issues in oil refining depending on the alternative purposes of different distillation fractions. Two of those alternative purposes are: 1 serving as a feedstock for the plastics production (such as PE (poly-ethylene and PP (poly-propylene)) and 2 serving as a feedstock for jet fuel. But there are many more aspects to this beyond those two.

    In case you continued reading to this point: I hope it sheds some light on this topic, probably rather showing the complexity of this than offering simple solutions. And once more, I studied this long ago in the early 80′s as just a part of studying chemical engineering.

  38. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Here is part of why diesel costs more than gas in the U.S.

    “The U.S. refining infrastructure is designed for optimum efficiency in producing gasoline. From a typical 42-gallon barrel of oil, the refining process delivers around 18 to 21 gallons of gasoline and 10 to 12 gallons of distillate (diesel fuel) plus some other refined products. Refinery yields can be tweaked but to produce significantly more distillate they would need to undergo significant upgrades costing billions.”

    To read more, see:

    http://blog.gasbuddy.com/posts/Why-diesel-costs-more/1715-485481-832.aspx

  39. ColoradoKid Says:

    #33 Yeah but Kit … when you do the math as we have … as well as factor in the inconvenience of not having a spare tire it’d take one at 24,000 miles a year average over 15 years just to break even with the added cost of diesel and urea replacement ( Expensive ! ) So especially at the mileage I accrue annually I’d be being very Penny Wise & Pound Foolish to move into the GLK250D …. not to mention despite all the hype to the contrary …. even the Mercedes diesels are louder ( outside and in ) than their gasoline counterparts

  40. G.A.Branigan Says:

    Here’s some nooz: http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2013/08/tata-motors-floats-tuff-truck-concept.html

    I hope they do bring it in,and it sells good too.Why? Because then other ‘quality’ OEM’s will see that the compact pickup truck market is really here,as it’s always been.

  41. Gene Says:

    It is my understanding that the additional tax on diesel fuel is/was to offset the damage to the road infrastructure caused by increased truck traffic as well as loads….Keep in mind the lower or non-existant tax rate for off-road diesel and farm implements.

  42. G.A.Branigan Says:

    @ # 37: Thanx,I enjoyed the read.I will add that bio-diesel would be,and is in fact what people should look at.Case in point: The new Ram 1500 3.0L diesel is factory rated at B20.Unlike today’s gas/ethanol blend,diesels don’t loose mpg’s from running a bio-diesel blend.In fact it’s better for the entire engine/fuel system/and the reduced/cleaner emissions too.And it doesn’t require food stock to make the bio-diesel.

  43. Kit Gerhart Says:

    #39,
    I suspect if I got something like a GLK, not likely, but possible, especially if I drove less, I’d probably get the 350. The difference in fuel cost wouldn’t amount to much if you only drive 6K miles a year, and the same power train in the GLK350 seemed really nice in a friend’s E350 I drove a while back.

  44. Kit Gerhart Says:

    #42,
    Do you know if there is any reason that Ram diesel couldn’t run B100, except maybe in cold climates where it might coagulate at low temp?

  45. pedro fernandez Says:

    Thanks for the explanation, but I remember diesel always costing less than gas and then seemingly overnight it became the most expensive fuel next to non-ethanol regular available in some stations nowadays,

  46. ColoradoKid Says:

    45 … cont ….. which kind of begs the question …..

    Why is diesel less expensive in the EU/UK than gasoline ?

    ——-

    43 – Yeah …. its one heck of a power plant and especially in conjunction with the 7 speed tranny and Mercedes driver adaptable Throttle /Shift Points ( it adapts both automatically ….according to how aggressive you’re driving at the moment ) its pretty much seamless on the flats as well as our 10,000 ft passes

    BTW I’ve been averaging right about 23-24 mpg consistently since we got it …. guess I’m not all that aggressive most of the time ;-)

  47. G.A.Branigan Says:

    @ Kit: I have no idea Kit. Maybe Mr.Van Acker can offer up an answer.

  48. G.A.Branigan Says:

    Here’s an article I just found: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2013/08/2015-chevy-colorado-gmc-canyon-to-get-diesel-power.html

    Now this is what I would want,the 2.8L diesel.Maybe I’ll end up buying me another chebby after all ;}>

  49. ColoradoKid Says:

    G.A. Branigan

    One major league problem …. well two with that TATA baby P/U ;

    1)Nice as it may look ….. reliability and quality wise it makes a Yugo look good in comparison

    2) Doing business with India’s manufacturing segment due to the extreme differences in cultures , morals and the definition of what a contract is and the meaning behind it is at best …. inadvisable

    Remember the Mahindra debacle of a couple of years ago ? Thats barely the tip of the iceberg . Trust me !

  50. ColoradoKid Says:

    What I want is that EU Ranger based SUV Ford’s got on offer over there that they keep thinking we don’t want !

    Simple ….. Small footprint …. Straightforward ….. No 3 pointed star on the hood giving the impression there might be an @$&hat inside …. damn good looking IMO … from all I’ve read pretty doggone dependable and rugged ….. and … if they’d bring it here …. American as well !

    That and/or if Ford won’t do it … the Toyota Hilux and its SUV variants

    But … everyone in the business ( or at least ALL the bean counters ) are convinced we don’t want small BOF P/U’s and SUV’s … just like they’re convinced we don’t want wagons either …. Hmmmn …

    I truly have learned over the decades to despise Bean Counters as a whole . Truly . When things are good … they make em bad … when things are bad … they make em worse ….

  51. G.A.Branigan Says:

    @ CK: I am very familiar with the ‘mahindra debacle’,I have not forgotten either. I didn’t say that I want that tata at all.What I do want is other people to buy them showing the ‘quality’ oem’s that the compact PU market is in fact alive and well here in the USA.We just need something to buy.

  52. Kit Gerhart Says:

    46,
    Diesel is less expensive in the UK/EU partly because tax on it is a little lower, but also, I suspect, because the refineries are configured to produce lots of diesel, and less gas.

    The thing that impressed me most about the E350′s powertrain, was how smooth and seamless everything worked. It was peppy, but I barely even felt the part-throttle downshifts. I never floored it, but I suspect full throttle downshifts are very smooth and rev-matched too.

  53. pedro fernandez Says:

    #46 I still think it has to do with the fact that almost 100% of diesel fuel is consumed by commercial vehicles in the US and thus they figure the cost of fuel will just get passed on to the consumer, you know, $hit runs downhill!

  54. Kit Gerhart Says:

    #47,
    The reason I mention cold issues, is that the “very unofficial” B100 (filtered frier oil) a friend used in an 80′s Benz diesel a few years ago would not flow when it got below the mid-40′s or so. That might not be the case at all with any commercially produced biodiesel. I don’t know. When it was relatively cold, for central Florida, he would add regular diesel, which would mix with the frier oil, and would work ok where the temp never gets below the high 30′s.

    I suspect using fryer oil, even well filtered, might not be such a good idea with today’s car diesel, but as long as it was warm, it worked fine in the oldish Benz.

  55. Duke Says:

    I’d be willing to bet that you guys really are not in favor of a real “free-market place” – especially when it comes to government subsidy of energy.

    First, in the United States, credible estimates of annual fossil fuel subsidies range from $14 billion to $52 billion annually, while efforts to remove even small portions of those subsidies have been defeated in Congress.

    Fossil fuel companies would absolutely freak out – if it were to actually occur (be terminated).

    Secondly, the federal government provides substantially larger subsidies to fossil fuels than to renewable energy (including alternative energy use for powering vehicles, like EV’s etc). Subsidies to fossil fuels, a mature developed industry that has enjoyed government support for many years, far exceed the renewable energy industry support, which is relatively young and may have strategic importance for this country. Unless, of course, you are only concerned with the next decade or so (short-term).

    Reminds me of a couple of my relatives that are midwest farmers (big time). They rant and rave about entitlements (to individuals) and yet they do not see their farm subsidies (some lasting multiple generations) and/or corporate welfare as entitlements. Add in the fact that the federal gov’t subsidizes the insurance industry to the tune of 80% (+) for crop insurance, and to remind them of same – does not set very well. Free-market place – yeah right.

    CK – look at the tax rate for diesel vs. petrol in EU – to obtain the answer. A subsidy is any government action that lowers the cost of fossil fuel energy production, raises the price received by energy producers or lowers the price paid by energy consumers. There are a lot of activities under this simple definition—tax breaks and giveaways, but also loans at favorable rates, price controls, purchase requirements and a whole lot of other things.

  56. G.A.Branigan Says:

    @ Duke: I don’t see why I would be in favor of KEEPING oil subsidies at all.Hell,the price keeps going up anyway so why keep letting the govt keep paying them OUR tax dollars.Same same farm subsidies or any other govt give a ways to any corporation. My thinking is this,if it ain’t covered in our constitution,it just shouldn’t be. Flame suit on so ya’ll have at it.

  57. pedro fernandez Says:

    Does anyone know why the price of ethanol free gas is so high? is it the subsidized ethanol that is keeping 10% lower than non ethanol regular?

  58. HtG Says:

    Alrighty Duke, I want to know why you omitted the strategic petroleum reserve from your list of subsidies. Hmmmm???? Do you not consider the reduction of supply risk to be a subsidy? Whatchu smokin’ today?

    (I keed, I keed) :)

  59. HtG Says:

    57 someone please argue to me why the govt pushing the ethanol content of gas up to 15% isn’t a function of every ear of corn in this nation having two functioning senators in DC. They’re going to ram corn into us serfs anyway possible, no matter what the carcos say.

    Why not more bourbon? Hhmmmmm????

  60. Phoenix Mark Says:

    On the gas vs diesel, when cracking crude oil they can adjust the mix of the two within limits. But, remember EU refineries exports some gas and the US refineries exports diesel to maximize overall profits. Don’t get hug up on the prise difference between counties as the tax per gallon or litre are different.

  61. pedro fernandez Says:

    Why not olive oil? isn’t it better for your engine?

  62. Kit Gerhart Says:

    #59,
    It’s because the billionaire “farmers” have lots of clout with those in power. An example of such farmers is the one who owns land behind my Indiana house, and tens of thousands of acres more in Indiana and Illinois.

  63. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Do they have a corn for bourbon subsidy in Kentucky?

  64. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I think the olive oil subsidies in Italy and Spain?

  65. Ckernzie Says:

    America needs to have their diesel fuel taxes in line with gasoline making them similar in price. After that no incentives are needed, diesel cars will sell themselves. Something called the free market if I’m not mistaken :-)

  66. Kit Gerhart Says:

    65,
    As things are now, tax on diesel would need to be 40-50 cents/gallon less than on gas for pump prices to be equal. Is that what you suggest?

  67. G.A.Branigan Says:

    Jmho,I don’t see why they can’t tax diesel the same as gas.Do they add road tax to the cng fueled big trucks? Lpg etc?

  68. pedro fernandez Says:

    There are other ways to tax those big trucks who damage the highways lots more than cars do, most states have weight stations, raise the fees there instead of taxing diesel so much, even though the cost of transport gets passed on to consumers, at least it will give diesel vehicles a chance, although fro very few exceptions all these are foreign brands, not American.

  69. ColoradoKid Says:

    HtG – More bourbon …. hear hear !!! Ethanol subsidies you ask ? Have an in depth look see as to who owns all those Agribusiness Farms

    —————-

    Kit …. no subsidies for Olive Oil … in Italy at least . Spain I cannot say .

    —–

    Duke ! ( Uncle Duke perhaps ? Damn ! I wish it was Uncle Duke )

    The one thing you and most everyone like you trying to use this argument ( #55 ) is missing in your Subsidies For All Formulation is that Oil and Gas Subsidies benefit ……. EVERYBODY … seeing as how unless you live in a cave and only make , eat and wear what you can hunt down or forage … everybody benefits from Oil & Gas subsidies . Thats spelled E-V-E-R-Y-B-O-D-y

    Whereas all these specific subsidies for EV’s .. Hybrids .. and now the want for Diesel subsidies as well as any manufactures only benefits those who stand to PROFIT from those industries being subsidized …. which aint in case you haven’t sussed out this ugly little fact of life out …… the likes of You & I !

    What in essence your version of the argument is attempting to do is to compare Apples and Cabbage …. all while pretending somehow they really are both the same thing . They are not …

    e.g. Illogical at best …. Circular and convoluted debate at its very worst .

    Its the old … ” My way is right .. despite that fact that its completely wrong ‘ argument … at its finest …. smack dab outta the politicians double talk .. speak with forked tongue mouths .

    Not that I’m accusing you personally of believing this tripe . But rather that out of and no doubt due to a lack of genuine information .. you’re doing an awfully good job parroting the Subsidy Lie .

  70. ColoradoKid Says:

    G.A. – No insult was intended on the TATA P/U comment …. just in case any was taken/assumed .

  71. Kit Gerhart Says:

    #67
    They could, and probably should tax diesel the same as gas, but the current 6 cents a gallon higher tax on diesel is a small part of the difference in pump price.

    While it varies by state, for the most part, CNG is taxed as “gasoline gallon equivalence” for the handful of commercial fueling stations, and for commercial users with in-house facilities. if you buy a CNG Civic and fuel it at home, you probably avoid paying road tax. As more CNG vehicles hit the road, things will no doubt change in attempt to collect road tax from all users.

  72. ColoradoKid Says:

    68 – +1 … for the 3rd time !

  73. Ckernzie Says:

    #66 Kit, either that or better yet raise gas taxes. Your gasoline prices are waaaay too low to affect any change in consumer buying habits. You need to be over $5 a gallon before any significant change will happen. If you want to achieve fuel efficiency as a nation than you have to start driving more fuel efficient cars with a mix of diesel, hybrid and EV’s. The only way you are going to encourage people and industry to do that isn’t through incentives, socialist CAFE legislation/industry regulation and throwing money at start-up EV companies it’s through fuel taxes. Taxes are used exclusively to repair road infrastructure and people move towards more fuel efficient vehicles. win/win.

  74. Kit Gerhart Says:

    #69,
    Oil subsidies benefit everyone, given that everyone continues to use oil at the same rate they do now. Eliminating the subsidies would have certain benefits, though, like encouraging conservation, maybe reducing the need for our huge military presence to protects sources of cheap oil, etc.

    Nothing is simple.

  75. Kit Gerhart Says:

    73,
    I agree that we should have higher gas taxes, but I’m in a very small minority in the U.S.

  76. ColoradoKid Says:

    73 – Mr Ckernzie …. ahhhh yes … the ol’ raise the price o’ gas and all will be well in the great US of A as far as fuel efficiency is concerned … except ….. the one major consequence you’re so well ignoring …. that being

    Raise the cost of gas/diesel
    Raise the cost of transportation

    And you ….

    Raise the Prices of Food as well as any and all other goods

    Ahem …. once again …. for those who may of missed out in the past

    THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH

    Which by its very meaning implies …

    There are no quick fixes / easy answers …. to Anything in life ..

    Cause the fact is …. Life is … Complicated and Very Messy

  77. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Certainly raising gas taxes would need to be done gradually, so vehicle buyers and the industry could adjust over time. That process should have started decades ago, as John Anderson suggested in his 1980 presidential run.

    Transport of goods can certainly be done more efficient in the U.S too, using more rail, big trucks going a little slower, etc., but that’s not likely to happen in my lifetime.

  78. pedro fernandez Says:

    #77 how about using more trains? the fact that Wal-mart has a ginormous fleet of semis transporting goods from their main distribution in Arkansas to all points in the US is not a very efficient use of fuel.

  79. G.A.Branigan Says:

    In reference to raising the cost of gas/diesel.For those of us that live on a fixed incomes,that only serves to keep me home,forever.My average cola is less then 2% a year,yet the cost of everything goes up more then that,and I mean everything. How are the average everyday people going to get to work,so maybe in the future they MIGHT be able to buy a more fuel efficient vehicle,and still feed and cloth their kids? Then add the costs of mandated health ins,and all the other things that make up everyday life for most,how in hell do they survive?

  80. pedro fernandez Says:

    GA but the same is true for working folks, I have not had a raise in like 15 yrs even though the cost of living has gone through the roof and my biggest expense, gas, has perhaps tripled in that time. If you insist on a raise they’ll fire your a$$ and get some guy in there who will work for even less money.

  81. Brett Says:

    If we had begun raising gasoline taxes by 10 cents a year back when Jimmy Carter warned us that the party was going to end someday if we didn’t wise up (And Ronnie Reagan cleaned his clock by telling everybody that the party could go on forever because we were “exceptional”) it would’ve motivated the development of more fuel-efficient vehicles and alternate propulsion technologies that depressed consumption (and, therefore, prices).

    As it is, instead, the international petrochemical corporations get that money instead of the government.

    I have often postulated that as a collective group, Americans are idiots…

  82. G.A.Branigan Says:

    @ Brett: if it were started back then,it would have worked without crippling the country as the oil ‘shortage’ did.But now,where everyone is kinda strapped,is piss poor timing.However,I have seen 5 bux a gallon for reg gas coming for a long time and I do plan on buying a small(er) diesel pickup that will last me the rest of my life.If I’m gonna end up paying 5 bux plus for fuel,I will opt for the bio-diesel and muddle my way through ;}>

  83. G.A.Branigan Says:

    @ CK: All is good ;}> I want to see all kinds of oems bring,or build here, mass quantities of compact diesel pickups. “build them,and they will sell”. Conversely,let them slid into old tech obsolescence like they all did, and the few left still are,and sales drop off…..sharply.Just like before.

  84. vincent joy Says:

    How about this novel concept: No Favoritism by any government. Another word for government favoritism is: CRONY CAPITALISM – a hallmark of Fascist states. Technologies should sink or swim based on their appeal in the marketplace and governments should keep their hairy feet off the scales. It would have been nice to see Ms Schneider make those arguments instead of crying for her own [VW's] subsidies! Someone once said: “the problem with Capitalism is CAPITALISTS!” Ms Schneider and VW are cases in point! There seems to be little integrity anywhere!

  85. Kit Gerhart Says:

    81, 82
    I thought it should start “back then,” which is why I voted for John Anderson in 1980. Yeah, I knew he wouldn’t carry even one state, but a few of us were able to express our opinion by voting for him.

    83,
    A lot of people say they want small pickups, but if the major manufacturers make one that is “as good” as the big ones, it would cost almost as much to make as the big ones. Would people want to pay within a thousand or two of the same price as a similarly equipped big truck? I suspect the Detroit Three don’t think so, except GM who are going to try it again with the new Colorado/Canyon.

  86. dcars Says:

    Why does VW want incentives for diesels when they are selling so well? Isn’t VW the most profitable automotive company?

  87. HtG Says:

    85 hope this helps, dcars

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2s6a0cnX7E

  88. pedro fernandez Says:

    #86 HA HA HA good one there Herman.

  89. ColoradoKid Says:

    Oh great . Looks like Obama’s about to bring us into yet another futile Mid East conflict …. in Syria this time … to go along with the others his predecessor left behind .

    Here’s a hint btw ( Kit especially ) Oil is among the least of the reasons we’ve been over there . Thats the excuse the Greens and the Left try to use to justify their EV etc agendas . Its not Israel either Fact is … we’re there due to a volatile cocktail of ;

    Ego ( all sides )
    Politics ( International )
    and … dare I say it … Profits …. remembering War is extremely profitable to the very few at the top making the calls

    Fact is … take the Oil out of the equation and most likely things would be ten times worse than they are

    Confusing ? Damn right it is . I know most of the facts involved yet can still barely make heads or tails out of 20% of the whole mess

    And we all thought Vietnam was a cluster _____ !

  90. ColoradoKid Says:

    88 – BWTM …. just in case you’re wondering …. as the rhetoric increases about Syria today …. so goes the price of oil as well