AD #1205 – Ford Adding U.S. Jobs? VW to Top Toyota by 2016, Detroit Electric Shifts Overseas

August 30th, 2013 at 11:36am

Runtime: 8:08

The UAW’s vice president says he thinks Ford could add another 8,000 workers in the U.S. According to a report, Volkswagen could pass Toyota as the #1 producer of light vehicles by 2016. Detroit Electric says it will produce cars overseas in Holland starting in the fourth quarter. All that and more, plus John McElroy shares what it’s like riding in a B-17 bomber.

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Hello and welcome to Autoline Daily. I’m Sean McElroy filling in for John today, but now let’s get to today’s top stories.

We’ve got more info on Carlos Tavares’ departure from Renault. Bloomberg reports that he asked CEO Carlos Ghosn for a larger role within the company that would include sight over human resources and legal matters, beyond his job as chief operating officer. But Ghosn declined and Tavares decided it was time to find another job. Renault says it doesn’t have plans to replace Tavares and might drop the COO position altogether.

Two years ago Ford committed to hiring 12,000 workers in the United States by 2015 and says its ¾ of the way there already. At a celebration for adding a second shift at the Flat Rock plant yesterday, UAW vice president Jimmy Settles said he thinks Ford could add another 8,000 workers on top of that. Settles tells Autoline Daily that Ford will not reopen any plants, and he said the main way that Ford would add workers would be by in-sourcing more parts. Joe Hinrichs, the head of Ford’s North American operations said the 8,000 jobs figure was “an interesting number.” And that strongly suggests that Ford and the union are in serious negotiations to bring more work back in-house.

On Autoline This Week our guest is automotive legend, Bob Lutz. He stopped by the Autoline studios to talk about his new book “Icons and Idiots.” In the following clip, Bob explains how he came up with the title.

As always you can watch that whole interview right now on our website

Volkswagen is expected to produce almost 9.5 million light vehicles this year. But according to WardsAuto, that number could jump to 10 million by 2016 and that would top the current leader, Toyota. The company is adding capacity in the Asia-Pacific and North American regions, including three more plants in China over the next two years, which is why it will keep the number 1 spot at least until 2019. Toyota has held the top spot for the last four years and is projected to produce 9.7 million light vehicles this year.

On Monday we reported that Detroit Electric delayed production of its all-electric SP:01 sportscar and said we would let you know of any new developments. Well, we have some new developments. According to the Detroit News, the company will produce cars overseas in Holland starting in the fourth quarter. Previous plans called for Detroit Electric to begin production at a factory in Michigan this month. The company’s CEO says that it’s still committed to Detroit, the state of Michigan and the United States but it’s still trying to get federal certification so it can begin producing cars in the U.S.

Coming up next, we’ll take a ride in a World War II bomber.

Back during the second world war the Ford Motor Company took on the task of building bombers for the Army Air Force. Ford built an assembly plant called Willow Run and started building B-24s at the rate of one an hour, which was considered impossible until they did it.

Today that plant is the home of the Yankee Air Museum, but it’s in danger of being torn down, unless they can raise enough money to save it. Recently I went and visited the museum and got to take a ride in a B-17, which is an experience I’ll never forget as long as I live.

Even though the B-17 was designed in the 1930s it’s a very impressive piece of machinery. What instantly struck me about this airplane is how well it’s constructed even though it’s very dated by today’s technology. The first thing that you notice when you climb aboard is that the plane feels both roomy and cramped. It’s roomy in places where you can sit down, but you have to really squeeze through narrow passages as you go to different parts of the plane.

What I especially like about this plane is how they’ve kept so much of the original equipment on board, right down to the radio equipment, the oxygen controls, but especially the 50 caliber machine guns.

The crew that flies these planes really knows what it’s doing and it’s actually a thrill just to see them start up the engines and taxi down the runway and finally take this massive machine up into the sky. Once the plane levels off you’re allowed to go anywhere you want, but I found myself particularly drawn to the nose of the plane, where the only thing that separates you from the rest of the world is a little bit of Plexiglas.

The other thing that I liked is you can actually stick your head out the top of the plane with a hatch that they leave open. I mean, when have you ever been able to fly around sticking your head out the window of an airplane?

The flight lasted something like 40 minutes and it brought us back to the Yankee Air Museum where everybody who got off the plane was wearing a big smile.

Since the Ford Motor Company was the one that built this plant there is clearly an automotive tie in. If this is the kind of history that you would like to see preserved then I encourage you to contact the Yankee Air Museum and please make a donation that will save a unique part of American history.

And just a reminder before I go. Next Monday is Labor Day in the U.S., so that means no new Autoline Daily that day because we’ll be enjoying the day off.

But that wraps up today’s show. Once again I’m Sean McElroy thanks for watching, enjoy your weekend and we’ll see you on Tuesday.

Thanks to our Partners for embedding Autoline Daily on their websites: Autoblog and

55 Comments to “AD #1205 – Ford Adding U.S. Jobs? VW to Top Toyota by 2016, Detroit Electric Shifts Overseas”

  1. pedro fernandez Says:

    B17 and other American made equipment, boy, when Made in the USA meant quality second to none, what the heck has happened to this great country, now we get Chinese tires and we’re ok with it!

  2. ColoradoKid Says:

    Ford has a Problem

    One that every auto maker wishes they had … with only Subaru currently sharing that problem

    The problem being …. Fusion sales are out pacing manufacturing capacity worldwide with several in the financial media saying Ford’ll be bringing some Fusion manufacturing to the US


    Pedro – 1 – Almost 14 years of hardship ( Depression ) … along with the extreme discipline the WPA etc mandated on everyone ( unlike our politically correct ObamaClaus who hands out money hand over fist and then looks the other way when the recipient reneges on any and all aspects of the contract ) .. plus the absolute knowledge that NOT doing it right would of cost us our country and our very freedom … not to mention a whole host of folks that actually believed in something .. rather than pretending there is something they even virtually care about as they do today

  3. XA351GT Says:

    I am afraid that is a product of everyone wanting cheaper things and maximum profits. It seems people woul rather have cheaply made inexpensive products ,even if it means throwing them away in a few years and replacing them. To get cheap you hire low skilled labor that you can pay next to nothing and convince them how lucky they are to have a job. Or you have produced in places like China that will undercut even the cheapest labor rates here by a mile.

  4. ColoradoKid Says:

    A couple of positives to send us off on the long weekend .. both Porsche related … the first a video …

  5. ColoradoKid Says:

    ……… the second .. a well written essay on both the joys of Porsche ownership … as well as the realities of LA culture … or lack thereof …

    Have a great one and see y’all on the other side ( Tuesday )

  6. ColoradoKid Says:

    BWTM – The ‘ Borg ‘ ( aka VW-Audi aka the ‘ Badge Engineering Kings ‘ )

    I’ve been saying it for over a year now . Resistance is futile . You ( the auto manufactures ) will be assimilated .

    But first on VW-Audi’s ‘ Hit List ‘ is of course #2 … that being GM .. then Toyota …. then Wintekorn’s well expressed intention of world domination coming to some sort of fruition . At all of our losses I might add …. you’ll see why…. and like me … you won’t like it very much either …. guaranteed ;-)

  7. pedro fernandez Says:

    just saw a review of a Passat 6 speed manual diesel engine, 800 plus miles range on the highway, the ultimate long distance cruiser IMHO. Too bad about its reliability issues.

  8. frank Says:

    i always thought that ford made B-24′s at willow run. i think that almost all B-17 were made by boeing.

  9. ColoradoKid Says:

    Frank – 8 – Here’s the history … can’t find any reference to Ford’s participation in either the aircraft or the engines ( jump to the link ) … hmmmn …

  10. frank Says:

    missed that part when the phone rang!

  11. ColoradoKid Says:

    Aha .. as frank said …Ford built the B24′s

  12. pedro fernandez Says:

    All this talk about the auto industry selling so many more millions of vehicles may be put on hold for a long time and the economy may collapse again if we engage yet another middle ease country, we cannot afford to be the world’s police dept any longer, as disturbing as the events against those people have been, the history of the world is replete with acts of barbarism against the helpless and it will continue to be that way as long as there are despots and religious zealots running around.

  13. Bradley Says:

    The aircraft were pretty top notch in WWII. However I think most would agree it was America’s ability to produce large quantities of mediocre tanks that won the war. As the Germans were so fixated on perfection.

  14. pedro fernandez Says:

    And to this day as well, by all accounts, German cars should be perfect and run forever but we know better, right?

  15. ColoradoKid Says:

    13 – Bradley – Talk to any ( legitimate ) military historian .. and they’ll tell you it was a whole lot of dumb luck as well . Had any number of circumstances changed even in the slightest we could of lost that war in a heartbeat …. so call it skill – determination , courage and a hell of a lot of divine intervention ;-)


    B17 – A personal take . We had one do a fly in / rides here in Colorado this summer ( ” Aluminum Overcast ” ) and let me tell you … what a thrill . Both taking a ( very expensive but worth it ) ride as well as having the plane fly over my house for four days straight

    The best part though was the day SG and I went to the Botanic Gardens while the B17 was here and as we were exiting the Gardens the plane flew overhead . Just as I was looking up a young kid … maybe age 10 pulled on my hand and asked ” What is that plane mister ? ”

    After I’d told him the condensed version of the story he got a piece of paper from his mom asking me to write down the name of the plane and what kind it was so he could find out more at home .

    Not nearly enough kids like him in this world these days I’m afraid as not a single other kid even so much as noticed the plane … their noses stuck into their SmartPhones/Pads and all

    BTW – Oh what a sound !!! From the ground as well as inside .


    Pedro – 23 – Amen – Unfortunately

  16. ColoradoKid Says:

    14 – Foreign cars ; An old GearHead Adage

    The Japanese assume anything and everything can and will break .. therefore everything is either replaceable or repairable and easy to get at

    The Germans assume … nosing vill break …. und if it does ist das stupid dummkopf behind the wheel that caused it … therefore even if it is repairable or replaceable its hard as ___ to get to and expensive as all ____ to do

    The Italians and the French on the other hand assume everything is gonna break any way … so why bother … just trash it when it does … therefore next to nothing on them can be repaired or replaced … and even if it can thats assuming they’ll sell you the parts

    Toddles all !

    ( had to end on a laugh you know ;-) )

  17. ColoradoKid Says:

    meant 12 on my #15 Pedro … mea culpa

  18. pedro fernandez Says:

    #16 CK you forgot the Chinese, what is their philosophy?

  19. G.A.Branigan Says:

    @ 18: “copy it from the russians”…

  20. T. Bejma Says:

    ColoradoKid Says:
    August 30th, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    “The problem being …. Fusion sales are out pacing manufacturing capacity worldwide with several in the financial media saying Ford’ll be bringing some Fusion manufacturing to the US”

    Where have you been CK??? This is OLD news…

    But I do agree, Ford does have a problem. After this addition at Flat Rock, they are pretty much out of space/plants/capacity. With current plants running at 105% capacity and no plans to build any new plants, Ford is pretty much stuck at their current output. If the industry continues to the 18M SAAR level, Ford will not be able to keep up and will end up losing share…

  21. john897 Says:

    Toyota has not held the top spot for the last four years.

  22. Tony Gray Says:

    Years ago I got to play around in a B17 called Sentimental Journey. Very sweet. At an air show in Philly in the 80s I got to see a B-29 and that absolutely dwarfed the B17. I don’t know if any 29s are still flying..those guys were saying it was exponentially more expensive to keep in the air than a 17.

  23. ColoradoKid Says:

    T Bejma … 20 .. yo .. zippy … missed the fact that bringing MORE Fusion production to the US was my point …. that being THIS weeks news … ehh ?

    [ comprehending subtlety is definitely a part of your skill set ]

    And yeah right … GM with what … 100 days or more supply on the lots with most their models should have the ‘ problem ‘ Ford and Subaru is having . See … I understand with the convoluted excuse for what passes as a Business Eduction over the last 20 years … this little point has no doubt escaped you but ……. the goal as a Successful -Profitable manufacture is to ALWAYS have demand be at least two steps ahead of capacity . Always !

    But hey … you guys at GM keep keeping your eyes on the meaningless SAAR bs while ignoring the Bottom Line and … you’ll be begging at who ever’s in power’s door for the umpteenth time in no time at all for yet another Bailout / Subsidy / Tax Credit … what ever

    So yeah …. Ford’s got a problem alright . They are … unlike GM …. making money …. and not on the Tax Payers dime I might add

  24. ColoradoKid Says:

    Pedro – 18 – China wasn’t in the game or on anyone’s radar when that adage was created …

    But I guess we could say that for the Chinese …

    The Chinese assume no one will know the difference why bother building quality : and as far as repairing or replacing anything the cars abject lack of safety will kill its owner well before any of that will be needed.. and if not that then the pollution in the cities will .. so who cares ?

  25. T. Bejma Says:


    Again, CK you talk out your proverbial pie hole without any facts…

    WardsAuto U.S. Light Vehicle Inventory by Company
    July 2013 Month-End Days’ Supply

    Ford July 2013=66 June 2013=61
    GM July 2013=68 June 2013=70

  26. C-Tech Says:

    Why do I suspect Detroit Electric will go up in smoke before we see any real production.

    @ #12 I doubt the skrimish in Syria will interfere that much in the U.S. economy, at least until someone on Wall St. finds a way of driving up oil or food prices and blaming it on the Syria army.

    My Blackberry has finally failed (trackball won’t track). Any recommendations for a new phone? Preferably from the less than $5 list at AT&T Considering an IPhone 4 for .99 plus re-signing.

    Opened a new WaWa around the corner. Almost got into a head-on collision with not 1 but 2 idiots who decided to take a shortcut and go the wrong way down a one-way street.

  27. C-Tech Says:

    @ #16 Whoever gave you that adage has not worked on cars for at least 15 years CK. It is easier to work on a M-B than a Mitsu, in my opinion, and some Mitsu or Subaru parts are as expensive as BMW. If you want simple, rugged, and inexpensive try a Crown Vic, Corolla, S-10, Jeep Cherokee, Sentra, or F-150.

  28. HtG Says:

    26 if you’re set on switching from Blackberry(trackballs can be fixed,no?), Ctech, the only thing I’d say is if you go Android check that you’re on a later version like Jelly Bean or Ice Cream sandwich(4.2 or 4.3). It’s also worth it to consider which plan you really need.

    27 why are Porsches so expensive to maintain and fix?

  29. cwolf Says:

    GM is turning out some nice products which are as good,if not better in many ways,than Ford; And I am not knocking Ford at all! Except for Subaru,I don’t believe there is another company capturing more attention than GM and Ford of late. And if you have been looking at the reliability data, these American companies are on par with the best of the others, but have the better of the others when it comes to the cost of the parts and repairs. And for these facts is why the great German stuff is lossing market share and many more people opting to lease rather than buy.

  30. bobek Says:

    Yes GM & Ford are building great reliable products and don’t cost a fortune for parts & repairs I currently have a 2013 Malibu LT …great vehicle as is Impala, Lacrosse, Cadillac….go USA

  31. ColoradoKid Says:

    Bicycle Racing AND F1 … all under one roof ;

    Damn ! I may actually have to learn to like Fernando Alonso now .. Damn !


    cwolf – Correction … Ford and Subaru are garnering all the ‘positive ‘ and meaningful attention … whereas GM’s back to their SSDD SNAFU habit of spitting out irrelevant numbers and fictitious reviews while still losing money hand over fist .

    As far as products … well … we’ve been looking lately ( for new wheels for SG ) and let me tell you … having a closer look and a drive or two … from stem to stern … from exterior to interior … from appearances to performance …. Ford’s got it all over GM from top to bottom . Fact is GM’s not even in the same league as Ford’s quality etc .

  32. T. Bejma Says:

    The real “fact” is that both GM and Ford are doing very well and in a lot of cases have erased the gap to the foreign makes. Despite CK’s best efforts to skew information to the contrary, GM’s (and Ford’s) financials, stock performance and the word on main street USA are proof of that.

    Ford does make a couple compelling vehicles. The Fusion is gorgeous (on the outside), and I would love to have one of the Focus ST’s (with a bit of a horsepower bump (0-60 in 6 seconds and 14.6 1/4 mile are not even as good as my Cobalt SS was), but beyond that, their products just aren’t interesting or any better than anyone else out there.

    As I sit here on my day off this Labor Day, I happy with the FACT that the automotive industry in Michigan is doing very well, home prices are going back up, unfinished subdivsions are becoming finished, unemployment is down and the overall attitude in my state is excellent. I also do know that this industry is cyclical and that there will be another downturn, but for now, it is a good place to be…

  33. pedro fernandez Says:

    What I think is that the decline in quality for both Toyota and Honda and the improvement in the domestics as well as the Koreans has leveled the field quite a lot, to the point that there are very few dogs in the industry like it used to be just 4 yrs or so ago, why even Fiat has surprised most skeptics with their avg reliability records.

  34. HtG Says:

    Focus Titanium or Mini Paceman, them’s my bet for the rocky mountain rogue.

  35. pedro fernandez Says:

    Based on parts and repairs, I’d take the domestic one, even though not a fan of Ford or their TURBO (not ecoboost) engines and DCT’s.

  36. john897 Says:

    Because VW says it will overtake Toyota, does that mean it will? I say do it and then brag about it after.

  37. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Yeah, as john said, Ford built B-24′s at Willow Run. Then GM built transmissions, and my ’81 Citation there.

  38. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I went for a ride in Collings Foundation’s B-17, “909,” a few years ago, and it was an amazing experience. The only disappointing thing, is that we were strapped in the back of the fuselage during startup of the engines, so could only hear, but not see them crank up.

    Once we were in the air, we “passengers” could move around, and traded places in the different areas of the plane. Being in the nose was really cool, and I was standing with my head out the open top of the plane when we made a low pass over the runway, and then did a “missing man” formation before going around and landing. The bulk of the wind was blocked when I was in the top of the airplane, but I could reach up and feel the 150 mph wind.

    The other plane I’d like to fly in is a P-51, and I think I have a line on doing that. I hope so.

  39. Kit Gerhart Says:


    I’m pretty sure one B-29 is still flying, Fifi, owned by Commemorative Air Force, (formerly Confederate Air Force. I saw it at an air show near Indianapolis in the ’80′s.

  40. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The Fusion looks great, and the Focus hatch is one of few non-hybrid alternatives to a Prius in the U.S. market, but I wouldn’t buy either, because of myford touch, and the overly complex turbo GDI engines that don’t buy you anything, either in performance, or mpg.

    I guess a lot of people don’t care about those things, though, and understandably, Fusion is selling well, just because of the way it looks. Nearly everyone considers it the best looking car in its class, by a wide margin.

  41. pedro fernandez Says:

    I agree with Kit, GM as well as Toyota and Honda prefer to stick to more traditional and proven engineering ideas, turbos, GDI’s, double clutch. Too new and unproven for everyday cars.

  42. HtG Says:

    41 I personally agree with you, Pedro. Though I keep in mind that many people who buy new are intending to keep their car for only a few years, before they want something spiffy again. I ask myself the question, ‘will this car give me a decade of good service?’ A lessee doesn’t think this way.

  43. Kit Gerhart Says:

    If Ford’s turbo GDI engines produced 10% better real world mpg than the competition, while giving equal performance, the use of that technology would be worth it to me, once it is proven reliable. The trouble is, it doesn’t. At best, it gives about equal mpg in most cases. A Prius power train is complex, but it gives something in return, like almost twice the city mpg of similar size cars with conventional power trains, and it has proven reliable over more than 10 years on the market.

    As far as dual clutch transmissions, VW’s work very well, giving better mpg and performance than torque converter automatics, and they drive well. They require frequent routine maintenance, though, 60K miles the last I knew. Ford’s dual clutch is unpleasant to drive at parking lot speeds, but works well at higher speed, at least to me. The jury is still out on reliability, though.

  44. pedro fernandez Says:

    #42,HtG hence, the BMW lessee, as soon as the lease and warranty is up, they’re out of there as fast as possible. Either go to another brand or lease again..TTAC has a piece on the 1st gen LS400 and how it has become a modern “classic” due to its ability to stay as close to new-like as any car from that era, durable and reliable.

  45. C-Tech Says:

    @ #28 Thanks HtG. I am considering a rebuilt Samsung Galaxy II from AT&T since it is almost free with the 2yrs plan.

    As far as the cost of Porsche parts the factors with them are the various “manufacturer availibility only” parts with them. Hardly anyone offers aftermarket Porsche (and Audi, Range Rover) parts. Porsche Dealers do not offer as much of a discount from retail as other brands. If I am repairing a 2010 Lexus the shops cant get the part at a %25 discount. A 2010 Porsche, we only get a %10-20 discount. If you had an older 944 they shared a lot of Audi parts which are available in the aftermarket.

  46. C-Tech Says:

    The Lexus LS400 and 430 are terrific, rock-solid luxury cars. I will take an LS430 or Mercedes E-class any day.

  47. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I really like my HTC EVO (Sprint), because the browser word wraps when you zoom in, so I don’t need reading glasses for using this site, and many others. I think a similar phone from ATT is called HTC One, or something like that. You might check it out.

  48. ColoradoKid Says:


    First Freeman Thomas says it ….. now Chris Bangle’s chiming in ;

    When it comes to todays car designs … its official ;

    ” Little houses .. on the Hillside .. and they’re all made out of Ticky Tac .. and they All Look the Same ”


    HtG – 42 – The problem being when it comes to new cars there isn’t a single one that WILL give you a decade of good solid service anymore …. they all being so overly complicated and having IMO more than a fair bit of Self Destructive intent built into them .

    So you’r choices are limited . Either keep what you’ve got ( wish I would of kept the 98 4Runner ) buy used …. or buy new … often … which in most cases means Lease if you comprehend the realities of depreciation etc in the automotive market


    47 – iPhone … hands down …

  49. ColoradoKid Says:

    Car Shopping .. subtitled ‘ My how much you’ve grown ‘

    Spent a bit of time this weekend looking at possible new wheels for SG …. with our conclusion not surprisingly being …

    Everything’s gotten so ______ big !!!

    Just look at the length of the majority of the so called ‘ compact sedans ‘ in comparison to my GLK [ 178 inches ) Ludicrous ! My CUV/SUV is smaller than the majority of compact sedans ???

    And worse yet … they ‘ feel ‘ even bigger than they are ( and bigger than my GLK )

    And then … there’s all the crap you don’t want or need they stuff in them when you want the nicer model … which regardless of what they say ( ” Oh thats included ” ) … you’re paying for on the bottom line

    Pazzo !

  50. Kit Gerhart Says:

    As recently as 11 years ago, you could buy a cheap, simple car, that would be very reliable for 200K miles, at least. I’m talking about my friend’s Sunfire. The only unscheduled repair was an upper motor mount replacement at about 120K miles. The repair cost ~$300. That’s it. Even Corollas and Civics rarely do better. As far as today’s cars, while they keep getting more complex, I suspect a current Corolla, Civic, and others will give a decade of solid service, with any luck at all.

    If an iPhone’s browser word wrapped, and if it had a little bigger screen, I’d consider it next time around, but as things are now, HTC has the best phone, for those who use the browser a lot.

  51. Kit Gerhart Says:

    How about a Subaru Forster? It is only 3 inches longer than a GLK, and is a little narrower.

  52. Kit Gerhart Says:

    …or an Impreza wagon. It’s only 174 inches long.

  53. HtG Says:

    What did you look at, CK? Did SG weary of the process and the car talk? I know I could shop for cars and talk about cars long enough to challenge a platoon of navy SEALS. (ok, exaggerating)

  54. ColoradoKid Says:

    51 , 52 … SG wants a sedan … for the trunk vs hatchback . Security you know ;-)


    HtG – Ferds ( Focus ) Subies ( Imprezza sedan ) Chevy ( yes Chevy Mr Bejma ) Malibu and Cruze ( yeeesh ) Nissan Sentra … heck … whats even left ? VW ? With their reliability ? No thanks !

    Honestly though … when it come to the ‘ process ‘ .. ( sounds like ” Spanish Prisoner ” talk to me ) there’s nothing more on this entire planet earth as far as day to day functions we both hate more than car and home shopping . Every time we engage in either it feels like … put on the HazMat Suits … dig out the shovels and spades ( the really big ones ) and for the love of god … plug yer nose … cause here comes the waves of BS flowing like Niagara Falls after the spring thaw …. and do remember to shower in the heavy duty chemical stuff when you get home as well as disinfect the cars interior … to get the stench out despite the hazmat suits ….. eeeesh

    On a positive note though HtG ….. aint it great that S’Lonso ( Alonso ) has saved Euskatel by buying them outright with his massive fortune …. and bringing Colnaogo ( ahhh … the sweet memories of my old ‘ Master ‘ carved lugs and all ) back on board ? Not to mention Contador may be joining up ( )

    Heck … like I said … with this move I may have to actually start liking Alonso

  55. Kit Gerhart Says:

    No Toyota or Honda?