AD #1540 – Ford GT Headed North, GM Gearing Up For CVTs, Dealers Rank Lower Than Independents
January 22nd, 2015 at 11:55am
Runtime: 7:22
- Ford GT Manufacturing Headed North of the Border
- GM Gearing Up for CVTs
- A Look at the Land Rover Discovery Sport
- Independent Shops Preferred Over Dealers
- JCI Envisions an Autonomous Interior
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On today’s show… Looks like the Ford GT is going to get manufactured in Canada, Consumer Reports says independent repair shops score higher than dealers, and one supplier is already designing interiors for autonomous technology. All that and more coming right up on Autoline Daily.
This is Autoline Daily for January 22nd, 2015.
FORD GT HEADED NORTH OF THE BORDER
We’ve got more information about the Ford GT. The data company Auto Forecast Solutions is reporting that it will be built by a Canadian company called Multimatic, which supplies all kinds of parts and components to the auto industry. It also manufactures concept and racing cars, including the Aston Martin CC100, the Dodge Viper GTS-R and the Ford Focus Daytona prototype. The GT will reportedly be made at a purpose built manufacturing facility of Multimatic’s in Markham, Ontario in Canada.
GM GEARING UP FOR CVTs
Ward’s reports that General Motors is asking suppliers to bid on a CVT that it plans to bring out in 2019. Even the Ford Motor Company, which based its fuel economy strategy around downsized, turbocharged engines, now admits that it will have to start using CVT’s as well. Though enthusiast drivers despise them, Continuously Variable Transmissions deliver terrific real-world economy. Just to give you a comparison, at the North American Car Of The Year test drive in Hell, Michigan two years ago, I got 33 miles-to-the-gallon in a CVT Nissan Altima on my test route. I got 32 MPGs in a CVT Honda Accord, and I got 22 MPGs in a 2.0 liter Ecoboost Ford Fusion.
Still to come… a spin behind the wheel of the new Land Rover Discovery Sport, CR says independent shops are preferred over dealers, and a supplier provides its vision of what an autonomous car interior could look like.
A LOOK AT LAND ROVER’S NEW SUV
We just got a chance to get behind the wheel of Land Rover’s new SUV, the Discovery Sport and here are the quick highlights. For U.S. customers its offered with a 2.0L 4-cylinder gasoline engine that’s mated to a nine-speed automatic, which helps it get 23 MPG combined. A diesel is coming later but the company did not say when it will be available in North America. We drove the Discovery Sport in Iceland and as you would expect from a Land Rover it handled well in the snow and off-road. Inside, there is plenty of room for passengers in the first and second rows. There is a 3rd row that folds flat, but most adults will have a hard time squeezing into it. Other features include a new touch screen infotainment system and USB plugs for every passenger. The Discovery Sport goes on sale later this year with a starting price just under $40,000.
DON’T WORRY BE HAPPY
For some people having to take their vehicle in for service can be very intimidating and we’ve seen first hand people get raked over the coals for repairs they really didn’t need. But according to Consumer Reports you should be going to an independent shop rather than a dealership if you want to be happy with a repair. In its most recent survey CR found that independents outscored dealers for overall satisfaction, price, quality, courteousness of the staff, and work being completed when promised. The only exception was Tesla. It can be very easy to lose a customer for even the smallest of miscues and word-of-mouth for any repair facility can be a very powerful thing, whether it be good or bad.
We’re headed to the National Auto Dealers Association annual meeting in San Francisco. We’ll start posting interviews from that show tomorrow and into next week. So if you’re interested in what’s happening on the retail side of the business, we invite you to check it out.
Coming up next, automakers aren’t the only ones planning for autonomous cars. Now suppliers are getting ready for the new technology.
JCI ENVISIONS AN AUTONOMOUS INTERIOR
Just about every major automaker is working on autonomous technology. Earlier this month Mercedes showed off its F 015 concept car that offers fully autonomous capability. The interior of the car shows the seats facing each other because if the car can drive itself, the driver does not have to be looking out the windshield.
But before we get to full autonomy we’ll have semi-autonomous cars that will allow the car to drive itself at lower speeds in traffic jams. And with this system, the driver will have to be able to take control when the car is able to reach higher speeds.
That’s why we were intrigued to see that Johnson Controls is already working on concept interiors for cars that will come equipped with Traffic Jam Assist. After the driver has set the car in autonomous mode, he or she can slide out a small table from the center console that allows them to read a book or work with a laptop or tablet. When the traffic starts to clear the driver gets a visual warning that it’s time to start putting everything away and take control of the car again.
Since you can work while the car drives JCI cleverly packaged a lot more storage space into the interior, including a glove box with a tray that can easily be adjusted to hold different sized tablets. The center console and door panels use what are called tambour doors, which easily slide back and forth and can also bend into different configurations. Tambour doors don’t need any hinges or latches so they reduce cost and weight.
What we find most interesting about this concept is that here here we have a supplier already looking ahead to semi-autonomous cars. And that suggests to us that they’re only a few years away.
And that wraps up today’s report, we hope to see you tomorrow.
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Comments (50)
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:14 pm
If they can build a strong enough cvt for light duty trucks,that will really improve mpg’s.I have no problem with having a cvt providing it is strong enough.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:14 pm
Tambour doors have been around forever on roll-top desks and bread boxes. I’m trying to recall who used one in the center stack for a storage cubby, but am drawing a blank.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:19 pm
Regarding the comments on CVTs, it doesn’t surprise me one bit. I’ve rented a variety of midsize cars over the past several years and consistently use their on-board trip computers to see how they do. Nissan Altimas consistently delivered in the low 30′s [mpgs] overall, Toyota Camrys in the high 20′s to low 30′s, Chevy Malibus in the mid 20′s, and Ford Fusions (usually with the 1.6 or 1.5 Ecoboosts) in the low 20s. I have yet to drive any vehicle with a turbocharged engine that got anywhere near it’s EPA ratings, be they city, highway, or combined.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:27 pm
While I am by no means fan of the idea of autonomous vehicles to any degree, I have to say it should either be fully autonomous or not autonomous. Does anyone really believe “drivers” of semi-autonomous vehicles will ready and waiting for the vehicle to switch to non-autonomous mode? Semi-autonomous would, after all, require “driver” attentiveness in order to be ready to take the wheel when the auto-pilot shuts off, and that would not be fun for anyone who wants to leave the driving to the machine.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:29 pm
The people hate CVT’s. All the auto magazines have derided then also. Why not just use a 7 or 8 speed automatic?
We used to own a 1997 Subaru Outback. We loved that ride. We considered getting another Subaru but found they all now use a CVT. We won’t buy one.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:31 pm
Hey John, love the show each day. With the industry moving quickly towards autonomous operation, it seems that the concept demonstrations leave an important factor out of the discussion. That being occupant safety. Of the concept videos that I’ve seen, “drivers” appear to be lounging around the cabin in all sorts of orientations. The interior design concept from JCI focused on storage and didn’t feature any restraints or airbags. How will these vehicles be crash-tested and meet NHTSA/NCAP regulations without a consistent H-point? Maybe you can get a safety expert or two on a future AAH to discuss this topic and also the FMEA of autonomous operation components.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:47 pm
I totally disagree with CR recommendation of independent auto repair facilities! The independents have always tried “raking me or a family member over the coals for repairs”. My Uncle when to one of these independents that offered a $19.99 Oil Change. The next thing he knew the independent was telling him that he needed new brakes and struts all around. My Uncle told him forget about the oil change and when on his merry way. This was an independent trying to take advantage of a senior. I only have the Dealer service my vehicles. I will admit to an occasional visit to one of the Big Chain Oil Change Franchise if a coupon is available and I am short on time. I watch them service my vehicles like a hawk.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:47 pm
4 I want to understand how someone reading at night on a screen or paper will be able to adjust their eyes to any exigency on the dark road. Either I have to pay attention to traffic or I don’t.
—–
Dealers-I’ll take the dealer thanks. They have OE parts, techs that see the car day to day, and it’s so easy to get discounts. Dealers are always sending flyers and if you go to their websites you’ll find 10% discount coupons. Of course, my dealers are only a short drive away. That’s a biggie for many people. (Dirty little secret? Dealers are scared pantsless that customers will give them a less than stellar evaluation with the OE. This is part of their compensation. “9′s and 10′s please, 8 means failure.” Seriously, that’s what it said on a recent service receipt) Be nice-talk to the dealer about any problem
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:48 pm
5 People who don’t drive CVT’s regularly hate them. People who DO drive them regularly like them just fine. My sister got a new Forester about a year ago and likes the CVT. The only downside she mentioned early on, was difficulty in starting smoothly from a stop. That is probably throttle mapping, more than the transmission, and she has gotten used to that, probably just using a lighter foot on the pedal when taking off.
Another indicator that people who actually have CVT’s like them, is that the CVT equipped 4 cylinder Accord, recent Corolla, and most Subarus did well in CR’s recently published owner satisfaction survey results. Most E-CVT hybrids also have high owner satisfaction.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:49 pm
#2, I know some mid-80s Chrysler products had center stack tambour doors on their storage bins (not sure if anyone else used them). They had a clean look and were easy to use with no latches or hinges to raise costs or malfunction. I was surprised they went away and was wondering why. Maybe they will make a comeback.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:49 pm
#2 – My ’68 Cougar has that tambour door in the console. So it’s not a new idea!
Congratulations to local heroes Multimatic. Those guys have a long and successful history in racing. Too bad the Ford GT is such a low volume car. It’s not going to help us much when GM Canada decides to shutter Oshawa in a couple of years.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:50 pm
The first person killed in or by an autonomous vehicles will generate a firestorm of lawsuits.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:57 pm
6, 7 I’ve had generally good experiences with independent shops, but I’m sure they vary all over the map. The most major work I’ve had done at one was a fuel pressure regulator on my turbo minivan, and they knew what they were doing.
With newer cars, I generally go to the dealer, especially when they are competitive on price, as with oil change specials, etc. The last oil change I had for my MINI was done at an independent shop that “specializes” in European cars. They charge almost as much for an oil change as the dealer, but they are 3 miles away, while the dealer is about 50 miles away, and you have to use toll roads to get there.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:59 pm
I’ve always found the independent shops better than dealerships. They work on a varity of brands and have a better knowedge base.
January 22nd, 2015 at 1:01 pm
@Lex- wouldn’t it cause just one lawsuit as it would be for the ” first person killed”?
I’m sure people said the same things about – cruise control, power steering, power brakes, GPS, airbags ……
January 22nd, 2015 at 1:22 pm
My ’85 dodge Shelby Charger has a tambour door in the console.
Dealers are generally better because the techs are factory trained, use O/E parts and see the same vehicles (and mechanical issues) over and over, making them experts with that particular brand.
January 22nd, 2015 at 1:23 pm
My 1978 Airstream is full of tambour doors. Even my 2007 Civic has a tambour door in the centre console.
January 22nd, 2015 at 1:27 pm
I’ve driven 4 new cars recently, two had CVT’s and got excellent mileage out of them, one had a DCT and also had great MPG’s plus very responsive performance, the third had a 6 speed traditional auto and got so-so mileage,but it did almost as well as the DCT in performance. Dealers just charge too much and their work is not always perfect. I use an independent guy, owns his own place and does not charge by the hour, I find that a rip-off, they always put more hours than they really need.
January 22nd, 2015 at 1:40 pm
I suspect that, for most people, the thing they might find “wrong” with CVT’s, and DCT’s is if they break. It’s probably too early to know about the Honda and Toyota CVT’s, and the Ford DCT’s. Nissan and Subaru have been using a lot of CVT’s for several years, and they seem to have ok reliability. The VW DCT’s, not so much.
I like the idea of what Mazda is doing with their “skyactive” transmissions, if I understand it right. I think they are using a torque converter from breakaway, which gives smooth starts, and the converter locks up as soon as you are moving. The transmission itself is fairly conventional, with planetary gear sets and clutches. If I am wrong on how it works, someone please correct me.
January 22nd, 2015 at 1:53 pm
13. “I’ve always found the independent shops better than dealerships. They work on a variety of brands and have a better knowledge base.” This seems like a non-sequitur to me for the very reason that independent shops try to be “all things to all people,” if you will. Their prices are sometimes lower, and this is the main reason for the good Consumer Reports feedback; I seriously doubt that the quality of independent service could possibly be superior to dealer-service. Independents have to know many different car brands, a variety of different forms of engineering and production implementation, and not concentrate on any single vendor. Who on earth is capable of doing that better than a manufacturer-trained specialist for a particular brand? I think that—with the exception of very old cars—one is better served to have a reputable dealer service a specific model and use specific parts to fix it.
I had many experiences in the past with both independents and dealer service organizations, and a few years ago I took my daughter’s Honda Civic to be inspected, and I learned that the muffler and tail-pipe assembly were bad and needed to be replaced. The independent service shop came back with a quote to replace the parts, labor, etc: but just to be sure, I also checked with the local Honda dealer to see what they would charge for the same service. I was shocked that Honda would charge about 40% less for genuine Honda parts than the independent, who was going to supply after-market replacement parts.
January 22nd, 2015 at 2:02 pm
I wouldn’t want to take my Prius to an independent shop for much of anything other than brakes, and since most of the braking is regenerative, the brakes will never wear out anyway. With a little luck, I’ll never need to have any kind of work on it, other than tires.
I’d want “references” before taking my ’96 Corvette to an independent shop for brake work. I’m sure some would do a good job at a fair price, and some would not. Yeah, the same would apply to Chevy dealers.
January 22nd, 2015 at 2:42 pm
#21 This is true for many new vehicles, if the tech or the shop do not get updated with the latest technology plus diagnostic tools, they’re gonna find themselves unable to diag or fix any car newer than 4 or 5 yrs old, which is the time when warranties expire and most people avoid the dealers looking for a better price. I am sure my local tranny guy won’t go near any CVT or DCT or those 8 and 9 speed ZF’s
January 22nd, 2015 at 3:09 pm
The 1989/1990 Thunderbird and Cougar had sliding tam or doors on top of the instrument panel in front of the passenger side. That storage space was quickly given up to front passenger air bags as part of FMVSS 208.
January 22nd, 2015 at 3:18 pm
off topic
Kit, today I spotted a Plymouth Scamp in purple with a white vinyl roof and body stripe. It had the number 340 or 304 on the rear fender.
I thought you needed to know
January 22nd, 2015 at 3:22 pm
CVT’s return fantastic fuel, with longevity that is adequate for most consumers. Turbo engine can deliver great fuel economy as well. The primary problem with turbo engines suffering in real world FE results, is they are fun to drive. People get that boost, and enjoy it, and as a result they use it. I’ve gotten low 30′s out of a 1.8T from VW, and from 2.0T from Ford…but guess what they were both manual. I’ve had a VW Golf TDI with manual beat out the DCT equipped car by nearly 25%. The EPA tests always put manual at a lower rating, yet in the real world, somehow they end up returning better fuel economy, but that is not a story you read much about.
January 22nd, 2015 at 3:26 pm
The dealer/independent debate is very subjective and varies greatly in specific cases. It cannot be covered with a blanket statement. I used to work for an independent shop that had some of the most intelligent and knowledgeable diagnostic techs around, as opposed to the local dealerships that had access to OE parts so they would just throw parts at the car to try to make it work. We often had confused dealerships tow vehicles to us to diagnose, then have us repair and return the vehicle or sometimes limp back for them to repair. The only blanket statement you can advise is find someone knowledgeable that you trust (through research or word of mouth) and stick with them. Coupon and deal hopping might save a few bucks in the short term, but its best to have one shop that backs up their work be responsible for all the maintenance and repairs.
January 22nd, 2015 at 3:29 pm
I had a Subaru about 10 years ago with an appalling automatic. It took forever to shift down and I found I had to keep blipping the throttle to keep it in a lower gear when preparing to pass. You couldn’t select a gear.
Ten years later, my current new turbo Forester XT has an excellent CVT. No lag, particularly when Sport# is selected.
For me, the CVT issue is less about the engine sound and more about quick response.
But then, I do live in the frozen north and like the sound of snowmobiles and outboards.
January 22nd, 2015 at 3:29 pm
(By the way, those techs started a local mobile diagnostic service, helping confused dealerships and independents diagnose vehicle issues and have an overwhelming business that has grown to a fleet of mobile diagnostic vans.)
January 22nd, 2015 at 3:30 pm
25 another thing we don’t read about is that today’s automatics get some of their efficiency by forcing the car into high gears even at low speeds. Well, sure, I can drive at 25mph in 4th gear too. But life’s too short.
Doesn’t seem to phase guys that want to bray about how autos are better than manuals.
January 22nd, 2015 at 3:38 pm
26 yes. I use those coupons on something like a cheap oil change as a chance to have a tech look over my car in the hope of finding something amiss(that they can fix). Also, the Miata specialist-independent I went to said that they’d sometimes get calls from Mazda itself asking for help. That kind of independent, I want to give my car/baby to. Their advice, I really valued and would make more expensive choices upon.
January 22nd, 2015 at 3:41 pm
24 I haven’t seen one of those in a while.
January 22nd, 2015 at 3:58 pm
I used to own a Scamp back in the mid 70′s, 318 engine, it was a great car, just to think those were considered compacts back then. A Japanese car was the furthest thing from my mind.
January 22nd, 2015 at 3:59 pm
25 I’ve generally gotten better mpg, relative to EPA ratings, with manual transmission cars. That has been the case, both years ago, and recently. My 2010 base MINI with a manual has 28/37 ratings, and my overall average for the first ~10K miles was a little above the 37 mpg highway rating. My overall mileage beat the highway rating of my manual trans TDI Jetta wagon too. With most automatics I’ve had over the years, I usually average about midway between the city and highway ratings. The Prius is an exception. I’m a little below both ratings, with an average of 46 something for the first ~10K miles, against 51/48 EPA numbers. John has said, and I confirm that hybrids, while getting spectacular mileage, tend to underperform the EPA ratings if driven normally, which I do.
Years ago, I read a description of how they run the EPA tests with manual transmissions, and they shifted at some percentage of the power peak rpm of the engine. I’m guessing they shifted too late for best fuel economy.
January 22nd, 2015 at 4:07 pm
24, 31
My ’74 Duster had a 225 slant six, and the optional 3-speed manual on the floor. I got a little over 23 mpg on the highway at ~60 mph, and thought I was doing pretty well. My Corvette with the 350 V8/automatic got 25 mpg on my trip from Indiana to Florida a couple months ago, going 75-77 most of the time. There was lot of progress in powertrains during those 22 years.
January 22nd, 2015 at 4:08 pm
’96 Corvette
January 22nd, 2015 at 4:10 pm
Having worked at an independent shop for over 13 years, the independent vs dealer debate is very near and dear to my heart and I think #26 said it best. I can only think of a handful of independent shops in my area that I would take my vehicles to for repair, excluding the place I worked and I think the same can be said about the number of reputable dealers. They can be hard to find, but once you do… don’t let go.
January 22nd, 2015 at 4:20 pm
A day or so ago, Autoline tweeted that Syd Mead was saying cars were going to be so expensive that in a decade private ownership would fall to shared use.
Syd Mead on car sharing: “Car ownership as we know it will be over in 10 years. Owning your own car will be too expensive. ”
Syd Mead: Cars that are individually leased or financed for years and that spend most of their existence parked is a fragile economic model.
These mileage targets, safety needs, and autonomy are adding so much cost. I wonder which users will be the early transitioners; city, suburbs, country? If I lived in NYC I wouldn’t want to own a car, but out here? You bet. Unless I can call an autonomous golf cart to pick me up and drop me off in return for a subscription.
January 22nd, 2015 at 4:23 pm
36 Sean, who’s the typical customer of the independent? What are they looking for?
January 22nd, 2015 at 4:36 pm
I saw a car for sale today that I’d be tempted to buy, if I didn’t already have too many cars. It was an ’82 Mercedes 300td wagon. The body is almost perfect, and the interior not bad. A classic color, cream/yellow. I guess these are good for burning used fryer oil.
January 22nd, 2015 at 5:18 pm
Cars and Politics
Some of you gents may be aware of today’s arrest of NY Assembly Speaker Silver on corruption charges. I bring it up because a couple of years ago I was on the highway alongside my own representative, and couldn’t help but notice he was driving a late model Merc sedan. I remember wondering to myself, ‘how?’, but mostly was tiffed at how he blocked the off ramp with his slow ass. Let’s see how this plays out; the US Attorney said today there are more investigations ongoing.
January 22nd, 2015 at 5:41 pm
That’s nothing HtG, a couple of yrs ago I met 2 clients, one a cop, the other a teacher living in a very upscale home, a Merc and a Land Rover, new. I had to ask myself: HOW??
January 22nd, 2015 at 7:53 pm
40 I read about that. It is a little unusual, a scandal involving actual corruption. Most recent scandals, at least in Florida, seem to involve gay bashing male Republicans caught in compromising situations with other men. Extreme hypocrisy, but not corruption involving money.
January 22nd, 2015 at 9:50 pm
40, 41, 42 I mean it’s unusual to have an arrest, not to have actual corruption.
January 23rd, 2015 at 12:45 am
I just wanted to add that I have had really good luck with dealer service (with the exception of Dodge which was awful!!), although I have an independent shop that I like as well.. The independents seemed to be a little lower priced in the past, but now I have found them to be about the same as the dealers…and sometimes even a little more… I was really “overcharged” by an independent this summer, but I think they were honest in that it just took their mechanics a little longer to service the car while the dealer mechanics would know it better and probably could perform operations quicker requiring less shop time charges… Sooo… I do prefer to use dealers for service/repairs with OEM parts and mechanics familiar with the brand of vehicle…
While I despise most car dealer’s sales practices, I have found their shops to be very good… This is contrary to what a lot of people say, but they have mostly been great to me…
January 23rd, 2015 at 9:02 am
Dealer / Independent ??? Just recently retired from 35 years in the auto parts field working for dealerships. I feel most dealerships are far better than most independents. But it’s not black and white. There are some poorly run dealerships with higher costs, but most are leading edge with very expensive diagnostic equipment and highly trained (factory) techs. There are some very good independent shops also, but many are just not trained well and use the cheapest parts to quote lower prices. One is best off establishing a relationship with an dealer you like and trust and stay with him. This will give you the best service and the lowest cost in the long run.
CVT’s are all getting better and I think they will be the transmission of the future. Does anybody think about the cost of rebuilding the complex 6-9 speed automatics??
January 23rd, 2015 at 9:37 am
45 yup, 5K on a Ford. Just for the part. We also don’t hear much about this when it comes time to roll out the ‘automatics are just as efficient as manuals’ chatter.
January 23rd, 2015 at 10:02 am
46 Also, you don’t hear much about 4-speed automatics are almost as efficient as many more speed automatics and CVT’s. At least that is the case with Corollas.
January 23rd, 2015 at 11:10 am
I wonder if those expensive repairs at dealers are done on purpose, so you get “encouraged” to use that money and your trade in for new wheels, I know someone who had a Windstar with chronic mechanical issues who finally broke down at the dealership cause the warranty was over and even though she was upside down, they talked her into a new Focus.
January 23rd, 2015 at 11:48 am
#38 – There was no typical customer where I worked, or at least I saw no trend. And they were looking for what anyone is: a fair price and good, quality work. The one thing that our customers would always tell us is they really liked our honesty.
January 23rd, 2015 at 12:35 pm
@44 I agree totally with you aliisdad! I want genuine replacement parts and technicians how know my vehicle inside and out. The independents charge almost the same price as the dealers. Your only recourse with a bad independent in the Better Business Bureau – Good Luck! The Dealers want you to use the repair shop and express lube service centers to maintenance your vehicle. Customer Loyalty is very important to dealers. Also if the dealer does not repair your vehicle properly you can file a complaint with the OEM and get the District Manager from the OEM involved. I have only had to do this once, and I did get satisfaction from the OEM representative. This is why I will never buy Another GM vehicle, maybe lease but never buy!