AD #1707 – VW’s Ripple Effect, Nissan Altima Refreshed, Apple Speeds Up EV Development
September 23rd, 2015 at 11:47am
Runtime: 6:47
- Ripple Effect of VW Scandal
- Apple Speeds Up EV Development
- Silent Bus Sessions
- Nissan Altima Refreshed
- Reducing Complexity With Over the Air Updates
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On today’s show…the VW crisis is starting to drag others into the mess….Apple accelerates its car efforts…and Nissan unveils the 2016 Altima. All that and more coming right up on Autoline Daily.
This is Autoline Daily for September 23rd, 2015.
RIPPLE EFFECT OF VW SCANDAL
Usually there’s a lull after a storm, but not with the Volkswagen scandal. The fallout is rippling out across the world. Germany, Canada, France, South Korea and Italy opened their own investigations, as did various states in the United States. This will undoubtedly lead to more fines and lawsuits. Supplier companies that do a lot of business with VW are also being dragged into the mess. Magna, which gets 11% of its revenue from VW business, saw its stock drop nearly 5% yesterday. The Robert Bosch company is another big supplier to VW, especially in diesel emissions equipment, but is a privately held company. So it doesn’t have to worry about its stock price, but will have to worry about future business with Volkswagen. And while VW’s stock was up 5% in early trading today, Bloomberg reports that charities, foundations and churches called one money manager demanding that he dump their shares in VW. Another is dumping his shares in Porsche because it’s the largest shareholder in Volkswagen. Meanwhile, VW’s CEO, Martin Winterkorn, is coming under increasing pressure to resign. Remember, at the time that the company was devising a software program to cheat on emissions testing, Winterkorn was the board member in charge of technical development at the Volkswagen brand. There’s a full board of directors meeting this Friday, and we’ll likely learn then whether or not Mr. Winterkorn still has their backing.
Coming up next, looks like Apple is coming out with an electric car after all.
APPLE SPEEDS UP EV DEVELOPMENT
There’s been a lot of debate over whether or not Apple is serious about coming out with its own car but the Wall Street Journal reports the company is definitely coming out with an electric car. The Journal reports the tech giant is aiming to come out with an electric car by 2019. Earlier in the year it was rumored that Apple was working on an autonomous car but the Journal says that’s part of its long-term goals. The company currently has 600 people working on the car but project leaders have been given the go-ahead to triple that amount.
SILENT BUS SESSIONS
Volvo Buses and the city of Gothenburg, Sweden have come up with a unique promotion to get more people to use its new electric bus route called ElectriCity. They’ve recruited popular musicians in the country to perform on buses and are calling it the Silent Bus Sessions. Not only do the artists perform songs for unsuspecting passengers, music videos of the performances are being put up on YouTube. Two videos from singer Seinabo Sey were just released and a new set of videos with a different musician will come out later this week. Who knows if it will attract more people to use the route but it’s pretty cool idea.
Still to come, Nissan updates the Altima, and over the air updates can actually simplify manufacturing.
NISSAN ALTIMA REFRESHED
Nissan unveiled the refreshed 2016 Altima yesterday, but this wasn’t just your average refresh. To help tie the automaker’s best-selling vehicle in with its other new vehicles, everything from the A-pillar forward is new. This includes the boomerang-shaped headlights and V-Motion grille, which I believe is the best application of it to date. The reworked body panels along with active grille shutters and underbody panels help to improve aerodynamics by 10%. Improvements to the interior are a little more subtle, but the most noticeable change comes in the form of cleaner-looking infotainment and HVAC controls. Also new for 2016 is a sport-oriented SR model, which can be had with either the 2.5L or 3.5L engine. Its highlights include paddle shifters, bigger stabilizer bars, revised damper tuning, larger wheels, a rear spoiler and smoked headlight housings. The new 2016 Nissan Altima is scheduled to go on sale in November.
REDUCING COMPLEXITY WITH OVER THE AIR UPDATES
We’re all familiar with getting over the air updates for our phone or computer but a company called Movimento has developed similar technology for cars. It has a lot potential to help get more recalled cars repaired but it can also make manufacturing easier. There are many different build combinations in an assembly plant, a certain model can have several different engine or transmission choices that need their own computer module. On Autoline This Week, Ben Hoffman the CEO of Movimento said “what might be 40, 50, 60 different variations that if you don’t have this just in time software capability, you’re manually tracking that inventory and expecting the people as part of assembly to pick the right ones.” With Movimento’s technology computers can have their software loaded over the air, right as a vehicle is coming down the assembly line. So instead of having dozens of different computers with pre-loaded software to keep track of, you just install a computer and make sure it has the proper update.
Don’t forget to tune in to Autoline After Hours tomorrow. John and Gary are going to dissect the VW scandal and recreate the likely steps that VW took to develop software that could cheat on emissions testing. That’s tomorrow afternoon starting at 3 pm eastern time at Autoline.tv.
And that wraps up today’s report, thanks for watching.
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Comments (62)
September 23rd, 2015 at 12:09 pm
According to my local news wintercorn has resigned. Anybody know if it’s true? I hope Apple makes a vehicle and I really hope it’s more affordable than a lot of the other electric vehicles that are just out of the price range of most folks like the teslas and bmw electrics are. Plus the apple car would be able to sync perfectly to all our other Apple devices.
September 23rd, 2015 at 12:11 pm
Ah well, it was announced today: VW CEO Winterkorn steps down “after the emission scandal” according to Bloomberg. I guess that VW wished that the emission scandal is behind them. I believe it has barely started.
September 23rd, 2015 at 12:18 pm
Even the NHTSA, Mark Rosekind, says VW has destroyed trust meaning “You just have to question every assumption when information is provided.”
If you see one bad bug, usually there are ten more hiding. So I expect everyone with unusually better user data than EPA results are going to get another look.
Bob Wilson, Huntsville, AL
September 23rd, 2015 at 12:28 pm
Best tweet so far: “VW CEO Winterkorn steps down to spend more time with his attorneys.”
LOL
September 23rd, 2015 at 12:33 pm
http://www.kptv.com/story/30094656/volkswagen-ceo-steps-down-takes-responsibility-for-scandal
September 23rd, 2015 at 12:35 pm
As this VW saga continues to unfold I sincerely wish that a realistic (accurate) cost-benefit review be done on allowable US NOx emissions as they continue to become exponentially more difficult and expensive to meet. As plumbing and compliance costs continue to skyrocket, efficiency, power and durability drops, diesel becomes significantly less desirable, even for heavy trucks. Regulators should understand the real limits of current technology.
September 23rd, 2015 at 12:44 pm
The downloading of specific software for a specific vehicle into common hardware is nothing new. I know Chrysler and GM have done it for years with their pcm’s and bcm’s with the use of their scan tools. Is this company doing something different, perhaps loading software without a scan tool?
September 23rd, 2015 at 12:44 pm
This story is likely to be HUGE. The problems go deep, between subsidies to promote favorites (taxpayer subsidies for diesels in EU, Electric in US, etc) forcing automakers to great lengths to “get” consumers to buy vehicles they wouldn’t naturally choose. We get manipulated by the government and the carmakers in many cases. Hard to see where this will end….
September 23rd, 2015 at 12:48 pm
7 C-Tech – reading between the lines about the algorithm has caused me to imagine the software detects no movement of the non-driven wheels while being tested on a roller, causing engine management software to jump to different code. I haven’t seen anything definitive on that, just my theory.
September 23rd, 2015 at 12:48 pm
If the fix for vw’s emissions controls will result in lower fuel mileage, then how will their CAFE be affected? Obviously it will raise the average. Will there be a consequence for that?
September 23rd, 2015 at 12:49 pm
Is it even possible to retrofit these cars with urea injection? I can’t imagine how much that would cost. And if they just detune them, they are going to drive like donkey carts.
September 23rd, 2015 at 12:58 pm
It’s official VW and Audi are ‘damaged brands’ and will need new taglines or may reuse some old ones, here are my recommendations:
- Say no to N2O
- TDi it’s just a small lie
- No truth in our engineering
- Polutinandagruven
- Keeping ahead…of the EPA
- Never follow…our cars
and lastly – Drivers wanted!
September 23rd, 2015 at 1:07 pm
Volkswagen C.E.O. Martin Winterkorn Resigns Amid Emissions Scandal http://nyti.ms/1L62qHN
September 23rd, 2015 at 1:09 pm
#9 Barry Thiessen
I suspect it just looks for steering inputs. If the car makes no turns, it is probably on a dyno. However, some of the articles suggest VW also looked for specific engine operation including manifold pressure.
One article made reference to CARB making a special test protocol but didn’t have any more technical details other than ‘longer.’
It could have been as simple has using a clock and when the trip distance was longer than the longest test cycle, turn off the emissions ‘tuning.’
The EPA test cycle is well defined giving many opportunities to detect and cheat.
Bob Wilson
September 23rd, 2015 at 1:12 pm
9 One of the UWV guys doing the research was on the Diane Rehm show on NPR this morning, and said that the software detected “no steering input” while going through the test on a chassis dyno. Also, it can detect the specific EPA test cycle of throttle and brake inputs.
September 23rd, 2015 at 1:15 pm
My understanding is the EPA and CARB do not test every make and model but rely on vendor provided data from their engineering labs. That was how KIA and Ford were able to ‘make a mistake’ that gave higher MPG numbers until the owners complained.
VW correctly assumed that owners who got better numbers than the EPA sticker would not complain. So the regulators had no clue until independent testing found the problem.
This suggests vehicles that get substantially better user MPG than the EPA rating are going to the ‘front of the check-out line.’ Such spoofing is not restricted to just diesels.
I suspect there are more when I look at some of the fuelly.com data.
Bob Wilson, Huntsville, AL
September 23rd, 2015 at 1:23 pm
Comment 6 finally a breath of fresh air, thank you. Everybody needs to see AD 1705 comment 119, that means you John, you should already know this! People you need a reality check, except Californa especially LA just walk. Anybody who elects a governor named Moon Beam four times is beyond help. You need to bring in another 50 million illegal aligns so you can be like wonderful Mexico City!
September 23rd, 2015 at 1:23 pm
@12: how about die-SELL
September 23rd, 2015 at 1:30 pm
@12: Winter-SCORN
September 23rd, 2015 at 1:45 pm
Some people still do not understand that VW used software to mask the fact their diesel engines do not meet EPA and CAFE requirements; it’s why all of the 482,000 VW diesels in the US are essentially illegal and you’ve got to wonder what a recall can do because VW needs to replace the engine or buy back the cars.
September 23rd, 2015 at 1:48 pm
It’s a bit surprising that Nissan decided to offer a 3.5L V6 option for their Altima especially as it’s competitors have moved to using a turbocharged 2.0L 4-cyl engine instead; but then again, the Altima has EPA mileage numbers for highway as being 32mpg which is impressive for a V6.
September 23rd, 2015 at 1:54 pm
#1.
On the Apple car: Keep hope alive, my friend.
But don’t hold your breath. If their electronics retail operations are any indicator (and you best believe they are) they will not come to market with an automotive product that undercuts anyone else’s sticker price. That’s simply not how Apple rolls.
They know the value of what they bring to the table (much of which they have stoked with spot-on PR over the past decade and a half) and will be commanding the typical Apple premium for it.
September 23rd, 2015 at 1:54 pm
GreenCarReports is saying that EPA sources say they are checking all diesels sold in the US and that they have another global carco with a problem. EPA is getting ‘loaded for bear’ and ‘are checking their list twice.’
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100167_epa-expands-vw-diesel-probe-to-audi-porsche-v-6s-all-diesels-to-be-tested
A big bowl of DeLorenzo’s own Not Good, coming up
September 23rd, 2015 at 1:55 pm
#6 & #17 Regardless if you agree with Calf emissions or the EPA’s requirements or not, that is irrelevant. Sure it costs money to meet these requirements as does the ever increasing safety requirements but to just dismiss VW’s blatant disregard (not just disregard but time spent to develop a cheat) for a requirement that all other manufacturers have met (as far as we know) speaks volumes as to the companies integrity. It’s like saying you don’t deserve a ticket for speeding because you don’t believe the posted limit is reasonable. I don’t think many feel its being blown out of portion.
September 23rd, 2015 at 1:59 pm
6, 17 I found that the US NOx limit is about 1/4 that of Europe. In the US, the limit is the same for diesel and gas cars while, for now, the limit is higher for diesels in Europe.
If there were a way to control which cars are driven where, it would be great to have higher NOx limits for vehicles that would not be driving in smog-prone areas in California, and elsewhere. Cars with uncontrolled NOx would be fine in central Kansas, where it is flat, and almost always windy to quickly dilute the gas to where it can’t cause problems. That might be hard to do, though, especially as cars get re-sold and move around the country.
I’ve read that the Europeans are realizing that their diesel NOx limits are probably too lenient. The air in Paris, and other cities gets pretty smoggy at times, and vehicle NOx emissions are a significant contributor.
September 23rd, 2015 at 2:06 pm
20.
I could be wrong, but that conclusion doesn’t sound accurate.
These cars would only be “illegal” and engines need replacing if there were no way to make them compliant. But we have valid proof that all it takes is a simply software application (which is already present in each affected vehicle) to make them compliant. So instead of that program running only when it detects the car is being test, VW need only issue a patch that forces the software to run full-time.
Yes, performance and gas mileage may suffer (by how much we don’t know), but this is a very simple fix that would easily sidestep additional EPA violations.
September 23rd, 2015 at 2:10 pm
/sarcasm alert
25 Maybe vw was actually far sighted? They knew that as cars become more like computers it would be possible to correlate GPS data and weather conditions. Therefore, emissions equipment could be set up to adjust itself to the local environment and law. Therefore, they have installed this breakthrough technology before their competitors.
Or something like that.
September 23rd, 2015 at 2:15 pm
Where there is smoke, there is fire. I find it hard to believe VW is the only one that figured this out.
September 23rd, 2015 at 2:16 pm
21 It looks like Nissan is creating a bit of a niche for itself by keeping the V6. It looks like the coupe is gone, though, and the manual transmission is gone. You get a CVT, whether you want it or not.
September 23rd, 2015 at 2:18 pm
Does anyone know which supplier delivers the VW 2.0 L Diesel engine management system?
And whether the OEM’s engineers can make changes to the software of such system?
September 23rd, 2015 at 2:23 pm
27 Using GPS data to adjust emissions control sounds like a great idea. Yes, seriously. Make them really clean when in urban areas, where that is important, and as efficient as possible in rural areas. It would complicate some things, though, including establishing mpg numbers.
September 23rd, 2015 at 2:24 pm
29 I’m pretty sure it’s Bosch.
September 23rd, 2015 at 2:27 pm
29 I read today that Bosch said they only supplied the hardware, and that vw did the integration and management
31 I know, right?
That may be what happens in all kinds of categories, not only emissions.
September 23rd, 2015 at 2:29 pm
#29 although it is likely the software was contracted out to a supplier it becomes property of VW and they would have the rights and ability to alter it. I doubt the suppier would alter the management system because they would not have anything to gain.
September 23rd, 2015 at 2:34 pm
31, 32, 33: thanks
September 23rd, 2015 at 3:28 pm
Maybe I’m missing something here.The news says that when in normal operation,the vehicles in question put out more pollutants then allowed.Right? But when hooked up for emissions testing then all the stuff works correctly,which means these vehicles HAVE the proper stuff on them already.How about just a simple reprogram to enable the stuff to operate all the time? No muss,no fuss,and no big lawsuits.
September 23rd, 2015 at 3:34 pm
35 Then why did vw take such a big risk?
—-
leasing vw
I read that 45% of vw units are leased. So maybe half the TDI drivers will get to walk away from the mess.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20150601/RETAIL01/150609997/vw-jetta-leases-as-cheap-as-iphone-plans-show-companys-u.s.-travails
September 23rd, 2015 at 3:41 pm
#35 I think you understand it correctly and yes the simple fix is to have the vehicle operate as they do during testing. However the problem is that there is probably a significant loss in power and maybe even MPG. It could be so underpowered it struggles to get up a hill with 4 passengers. Who knows?
September 23rd, 2015 at 3:50 pm
“Significant loss in power”,I have to wonder just how much of a loss.
September 23rd, 2015 at 3:53 pm
35. Like I said (26).
37. Or, it could just make them mortal.
Kryptonite, anyone?
September 23rd, 2015 at 3:54 pm
@ HtG: I’m thinking more of avert bragging,as in ‘class leading’mpg’s.Nothing more.
September 23rd, 2015 at 3:57 pm
35, 37 I’m guessing we will find out “how much” power and/or mpg loss in the fairly near future.
September 23rd, 2015 at 3:57 pm
My guess is they won’t lose more than 3 to 4 mpg. Which may not seem like a whole lot, but when you have auto companies spending hundreds of millions in R&D just to shave 2mpg, that can be huge.
September 23rd, 2015 at 4:01 pm
Maybe VW can talk the EPA into letting them install those GPS controls, to adjust NOx control on an as-needed basis. No, that is probably a few years away.
September 23rd, 2015 at 4:01 pm
#37
Can’t be worse than the VW Dasher diesel wagon I drove back in about 1983.
September 23rd, 2015 at 4:04 pm
I still haven’t heard what is actually being turned off for non-test mode, but if it’s EGR, as seems likely, it might hurt power more than mpg.
September 23rd, 2015 at 4:05 pm
turned on for test mode, that is
September 23rd, 2015 at 5:47 pm
I guess using urea to treat the exhaust is the way to go with Diesel in the US?
September 23rd, 2015 at 5:51 pm
Here’s a piece from ARD in Germany. An interview with a prof. of auto economics. One thing he says is that there are other carcos whose emissions are out of whack too.
“Bratzel: Independent testing of ICCT, who brought the ball rolling, already show that not just Volkswagen vehicles are affected, but also provide other brands had striking differences between the test results and the real results. You have to now look very closely to see if there is something in it, or whether in fact – so it is alleged – the deviations to the environmental conditions are. I believe that even a certain danger that this practice is not limited only to Volkswagen.”
you may have to use Google translate to read the whole interview…
https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/volkswagen-klagen-103.html
Duck
September 23rd, 2015 at 5:56 pm
A WaPo piece on how the vw debacle is a national embarrassment for Germans. Personally, I’ve got the giggles. That’s Schadenfreude kids.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/23/for-germans-the-volkswagen-scandal-is-a-national-embarrassment/
September 23rd, 2015 at 6:24 pm
48 It apparently takes more than the urea. Some of the cars on “the list,” 2015 Golf and Jetta, and I think all of the Passats, have urea. The ones that pass, as I’ve read BMW does, must do something different. I’m guessing intercooled EGR, but could be wrong.
September 23rd, 2015 at 6:50 pm
Comment 6 finally a breath of fresh air, thank you. Everybody needs to see AD 1705 comment 119, that means you John, you should already know this!
September 23rd, 2015 at 7:06 pm
Joe, maybe you aren’t old enough to know, but there is a reason for emissions regs in general, and NOx regs in particular.
http://www.kcet.org/updaily/socal_focus/history/los-angeles-smoggy-past-photos-31321.html
September 23rd, 2015 at 8:47 pm
Hmmm , I wonder if Ferdinand Piech Secretly put a bug in someone’s ear to get back at VW for siding with Wintercorn over him. Got to think he is calling up saying how do you like me now.
September 23rd, 2015 at 9:49 pm
Here’s another article on how VW got caught, and the likely fix. If the article is right, the “fix” might hurt mpg more than performance.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/advanced-cars/how-professors-caught-vw-cheating
September 23rd, 2015 at 11:41 pm
I think that there may well be a fundamental problem with the VW diesel engine in question if you run the pollution stuff full time as needed. Hence the cheat is needed. Why are they are turning off all pollution stuff and dumping 40x the NOx that sort of says to me the engine will not survive the expected life if you ran the pollution stuff full time esp. the EGR system. Without the egr system running the engine runs a lot cooler, the engine will last a lot longer Therefore costs for warranty go way down and you get happy customers and even more profit. The EGR system and EGR coolers are the biggest problem points in the diesel world. If I am correct the way I read the CARB letter to VW, VW had already submitted a software fix for this problem to them for testing and it had failed. Based on that and the way I understood it I would guess VW really has no easy or acceptable fix for the engine and that my leave only 2 options 1)detune the engine to unacceptable levels and/or do major hardware rework to the engine to make it compliant or 2)force VW to take the cars off the road at least in California. Either way I would not touch one of these things with a 10 foot poll. I could be dead wrong but I fear they will be nothing but trouble for the owners of the effected cars. I see a fire sale on a bunch of diesel VW’s coming and they may well all end up in some country with no pollution laws. This is a major problem for VW they have knowingly thumbed their noses at the world and at the laws many countries we have put in place to protect the planet. Don’t get me wrong I am not a tree hugger but this was done in a deliberate and cynical way just to make money.
September 24th, 2015 at 5:59 am
“I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my part,” Winterkorn said during his statement on Wednesday.
Uh oh, that doesn’t sound right
September 24th, 2015 at 8:11 am
#20: Yep. This is likely the start of the end for internal comb. engines of all sorts. Too complex to manage. So it goes. 50 years from here will be a whole new transportation system. Brave New World.
September 24th, 2015 at 8:30 am
#58
The normal progression is for something to become obsolete the moment it reaches it’s highest level of development. Just look at steam locomotives.
It’s sort of the Peter Principle for technology.
September 24th, 2015 at 9:35 am
Audi and Porsche heads to roll.
Oh boy do I got the giggles
September 24th, 2015 at 10:10 am
If Audi gets nailed for widespread cheating, I’d say their investment in LeMans has been shot to shit.
September 24th, 2015 at 11:25 am
I’m just laughing my ass off at all of this with these giant car corps weaving and dodging.This is great.
@ 58: Don’t hold your breath,instead buy a leaf.