AD #2292 – Mass Market Cars Headed for Extinction? New Efficient Engine Under Development, Final Model 3 Thoughts
February 16th, 2018 at 11:36am
Runtime: 8:15
0:32 Mass Market Cars Headed for Extinction?
1:14 Dolphin N2 Split-Cycle, Dual-Fuel Diesel Engine
3:51 Benefits of Ram’s 48-Volt Hybrid System
6:31 Final Thoughts on Tesla’s Model 3
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On today’s show… Toyota’s design chief says mass market cars will be eliminated in the future… Ricardo develops an engine with more thermal efficiency than the Prius… and we’ve got more feedback from Sandy Munro about the Tesla Model 3. All that and more coming right up on Autoline Daily.
This is Autoline Daily the show for enthusiasts of the automotive industry.
REDUCING THE MASS
Autonomy and ride sharing have the potential to completely change how people use and own cars. And Toyota’s new design chief has an interesting prediction for the future. Reuters reports that Simon Humphries believes there won’t be a need for mass market cars because most vehicles will shift towards electric shuttle pods, like its e-Palette concept, which will eliminate the need for people to drive themselves around. While that doesn’t sound very appealing, Humphries also predicts that performance cars could still survive for those of us who like to drive. But what do you think, can you see mass market cars being eliminated in the future?
SPLIT-CYCLE, DUAL-FUEL ENGINE
We were recently told the most thermally efficient gas engine you can get today is in the Toyota Prius at 41%. Meaning that if the fuel coming in has 100% thermal energy, the Prius transforms 41% into useful work energy. The remaining 59% is mostly lost as waste heat. The best diesel engines are somewhere in the range of 45%. But CryoPower is a new kind of split-cycle, dual-fuel diesel engine in development that could go as high as 60% thermal efficiency. As Simon Brewster, CEO of Dolphin N2, the company that was formed by supplier Ricardo to further develop the engine, tells Autoline, split-cycle takes the normal 4-strokes and splits it between two cylinders. The suck/squeeze happens in the compression cylinder, while the bang/blow takes place in the combustion cylinder. So, air comes into the engine and is compressed in the compression cylinder, it’s then cooled with a shot of liquid nitrogen. From there it travels into a heat exchanger, before it’s drawn into the combustion cylinder. Not only is the liquid nitrogen used as a coolant, but it also supplements some of the diesel fuel. Then the whole mixture is combusted and sent out through the heat exchanger where it gives some of its heat energy, which would normally be wasted, back to the cooled air mixture before the exhaust hits the turbocharger. Dolphin N2 says the engine has demonstrated the potential to reduce fuel cost by 20% and fuel usage by 30% compared to today’s heavy-duty diesel engines. Meaning, you’ll likely never see an engine like this in your car. But it makes a whole lot of sense for long-haul trucks, where a dual-fuel system would not be as big of a deal. The engine also drastically reduces soot and NOx emissions, one of the biggest complaints with diesel engines these days. Dolphin N2 is currently working to develop the engine, but hopes to get further investment to take it to the next stages.
And speaking of engines, we’ll take a look at the new 48V mild hybrid system in the Ram 1500, right after this.
BENEFITS OF RAM’S 48-VOLT HYBRID SYSTEM
The 2019 Ram 1500 is available with a number of new features but one of the most surprising additions is its 48V mild-hybrid. On Autoline This Week, Jim Morrison, the head of the Ram brand discussed the benefits of the new system.
(Clip from ATW #2207 can only be viewed in the video version of today’s show.)
For more about the all-new Ram, you can watch that entire show right now on our website, Autoline.tv or you can find it on our YouTube channel.
Coming up next, more feedback from Munro & Associates about its look into the Tesla Model 3.
FINAL THOUGHTS ON TESLA’S MODEL 3
All week long we’ve been showing you the latest that Munro & Associates has found in its benchmarking study on Tesla’s Model 3. And here’s the final installment.
(Clip with Sandy Munro can only be viewed in the video version of today’s show.)
We hope you’ve enjoyed this look into Tesla’s Model 3. The entire video will be available later to watch on our YouTube channel. And when Munro and Associates finishes its complete teardown of the car we’ll let you know what they found.
But that wraps up today’s report, thanks for watching and have a great weekend.
Thanks to our partner for embedding Autoline Daily on its website: WardsAuto.com
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Comments (36)
February 16th, 2018 at 12:12 pm
Mas market cars could become extinct if using ride sharing doesnt exceed the estimated $8469.00 a year to own a car. According to the following web site. Has a calculator so you can figure your own cost of car ownership and mine came in more like $23,616 a year but I also drive way more than 15k a year.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/total-cost-owning-car/
February 16th, 2018 at 12:21 pm
When Jim Morrison said they get double digit improvements with this hybrid system I assume that will be city which currently is like 20/28 so 30mpg would be impressive. With the added weight I wonder how that will affect towing capacity.
February 16th, 2018 at 12:37 pm
Morrison must mean double digit PER CENT improvement, not double digit MPG improvement. That might mean improving the city rating for the 2wd V6 from 17 mpg to 20 mpg. That sounds reasonable. Raising the city rating from 17 to 27 does not sound reasonable, for a mild hybrid.
February 16th, 2018 at 12:40 pm
Actually, improving from 17 to 19 mpg would be a double digit improvement, 11.76%.
February 16th, 2018 at 12:44 pm
The car show video on the RAM went into a lot of detail. Apparently the battery pack is in the cabin, behind the driver seat. It sounds like this is more of a ‘launch’ system so it should effect city more than highway performance.
As for Munro and the Model 3, he in effect said beauty is more than skin deep. Fisker proved it is better to be good under the skin than just a piece of sheet metal art.
February 16th, 2018 at 1:12 pm
The Dolphin engine looks way to complex and and difficult to deploy for any kind of usage in the near future. The way I understand the article, the engine will actually consume liquid nitrogen during operation? Might as well run on a gaseous version of unobtainium.
Why didn’t GM continue to develop the Parallel Hybrid rwd system they offered in 07-10? That system made far more sense than the one’s they offer today that change the current flow of the alternator to turn it in to a starter/assist motor like a 1919 Simplex?
February 16th, 2018 at 1:18 pm
I had just commented a few days ago on the lack of thermal efficiency of ICE, comparing a gas engine vs electric motor to an incandescent bulb vs LED. I never thought an ICE would get close to using even half of the available thermal energy, so that CryoPower engine is very impressive if it reaches 60%. In the long run though, due to size and cost it will never reach the ever increasing thermal efficiency of EVs. I’m not some greeny tree-hugger, or anti-ICE, I just appreciate efficiency and have an objective view of where smart propulsion solutions are heading.
I do like the intermediate steps we are seeing though with more and more efficient ICEs and adding eTorque or separate motors to give the best benefits of ICEs and electrics.
February 16th, 2018 at 1:19 pm
Ever since Sean replaced John on Autoline Daily I Feel like I’m reading the National Enquirer and all the made up stories. Every week it’s are you kidding me!?
February 16th, 2018 at 1:27 pm
The Split-Cycle has one caveat and that’s the liquid nitrogen; seems a deal breaker to me.
And the caveat of the earlier story of mass-market cars going away; that would be the factor of time (and that I feel would be evolutionary if it even happens at all). In any case, and for the foreseeable future, there WILL be a sales leader and whether that is deemed mass market, well on that I don’t know.
February 16th, 2018 at 1:38 pm
#8, Mark ????? Not sure what you are trying to say. I think Sean does a fine job. What are the “Made Up Stories”??
February 16th, 2018 at 2:02 pm
I’ll also give “Two Thumbs Up” to Sean for his presentation.
Mark, if you don’t believe (or have a different view) of a story you are free to present your opinion in the “Comment” section. And if it might be controversial it’s always a good idea to include IMO or JMO, etc.
February 16th, 2018 at 2:07 pm
What is the actual “thermally efficient” of most EVs when you factor in the actual generation of the electricity which need to be transferred and stored to power the vehicle?
February 16th, 2018 at 2:08 pm
#8 I dont think the recent stories are anything to do with Sean vs John. Lots of changes are happening in the automotive industry right now. Some may seem far fetched or made up but I really think its an effort to cover everything that is transportation related. Flying cars and autonomy might seem like a made up story but we are much closer than you think. The technology is available its just managing it in a useful form. IMO
February 16th, 2018 at 2:10 pm
If that dolphin engine actually works as advertised, and the separation and liquification of the N2 doesn’t eat up all of the efficiency advantage, big boats/ships might be a good application. Having lots of weight isn’t much of an issue, as long as it is down low.
February 16th, 2018 at 2:18 pm
I am waiting to test drive the Refreshed 2019 Jeep Cherokee with the 2.0 Litre Turbo. The one thing I want to comment on is that there is no dark blue exterior paint color. The Patriot Blue on the 2018 Cherokee was too light for my taste, and is not even being offered in 2019 models. Why can’t FCA add the Grand Cherokee’s “True Blue” to the exterior palette of the 2019 Cherokee. I hope Mark Allen or one of his associated is reading this message.
February 16th, 2018 at 2:26 pm
12. From what I’ve been able to find, the electric motors are around 90% efficient, and the charge/discharge efficiency of the batteries is 70-80 percent. That would make the overall power source efficiency around 70%, much better than any ICE car. The real efficiency, and enviromental impact depends on where the power comes from. Solar or wind, produced at the charge station, is much better than power from a coal plant 500 miles away, with 30% loss in the transmission lines and grid.
February 16th, 2018 at 2:33 pm
15 I looks like Jeep is taking lesson from the play book of Toyota, GM, and others. You can get “nicer” colors on some Lexi, than on Toyotas, and “nicer” colors on Cadillacs than on Chevies. Maybe Jeep can get some people to spend an extra $15K or whatever for the GC to get that shade of blue.
February 16th, 2018 at 2:53 pm
The section on the Dodge Ram is interesting, but to me the new styling of the Ram is really a huge step foward for the pick up truck. It seems to make the truck look big but refined. Now if they could only work to get their quality better, I might consider buying one of their products in the future. In regards to colors, would love to see more choices for interior colors come back. Black/beige/stone/gray…enough already!
February 16th, 2018 at 2:55 pm
John,Sean or any of the other guest hosts you folks have had over the years works for me. All good.
February 16th, 2018 at 3:10 pm
18 You can get a red interior in a Corvette, even a base car, and some other real colors in higher trim levels. Yeah, a Corvette is not for everyone, and I really miss interior color choice. When my parents ordered a 1966 Dodge Coronet 500, there were about ten interior colors to choose from.
February 16th, 2018 at 3:49 pm
I bet they could offer more colors back in the day because most of the car was built in-house. Now the cars are outsourced to many suppliers and having a huge color pallet means each supplier also has to also carry a huge color pallet. Trying to get a good match on the bumpers, rockers and other painted trim parts that have to match the body, and are all painted at different locations is hard for each color.
Each new color adds expense and complexity to the vehicles like rear bumpers have to buy back up sensors front bumpers buy painted grills that are painted to match every color so the sensor/grill suppliers has to carry every color. Then the bumper supplier needs to paint bumpers in every color and ship to the asm plant and it all has to match for the entire years of production meaning different batches and variables. So my 2 cents on why color options are limited.
February 16th, 2018 at 3:52 pm
To further explain color complexity, if you are say Bosch and supply back up sensors for Ford GM and FCA and have 4 vehicle lines from each manufacturer and each car line has 5 different colors. That means they have to supply sensors painted in 60 different colors.
February 16th, 2018 at 3:55 pm
Chrysler back then had many choices. I really liked their color engine compartment treatment. It made my 1966 Comet 2dr hardtop look unfinished in the engine bay. Remember the days of Ford’s rainbow of colors for the exterior. I kind of remember Porsche having many choices in the 70′s
February 16th, 2018 at 3:57 pm
” Mass Market Cars Headed for Extinction? ”
Once again,only thinking that everyone lives in a city.I guess country folk don’t count,and no,not everyone that lives in the country drives a pickup truck…
February 16th, 2018 at 4:07 pm
24 great comment. I am right now visiting my son’s family in Hastings Ne. Its a different world here. The Mass Market Cars theory is truly pie in the sky arrogance to the fly over states.
February 16th, 2018 at 4:17 pm
Back in the day there were many more colors offered in the car’s line-up; some were options but some were also color coordinated to the exterior color so perhaps there weren’t that many options. Also, back in the day, there weren’t nearly as many vehicles equipped with leather interior (not that I can conclude that that would be a factor, but maybe).
G.A., good point (#24) Some of these declarations seem to be just attention getting and don’t pan out (like a Jean Dickson prediction; many predictions, only a few come to fruition).
February 16th, 2018 at 4:58 pm
When many American cars had about 10 interior color chouices, many of them were vinyl. Maybe it’s easier to make a lot of colors of vinyl, than a lot of colors of leather, or oh-so-unfashionable cloth, the best material for car seats.
21, Lambo, yeah, that makes sense on paint colors, if they paint the metal and various plastic parts in various locations around the world. It really looks tacky if they don’t match.
February 16th, 2018 at 5:04 pm
In the mid 1950′s through the 1960′s, you had lots of color choice, both paint and interior, with a basic Ford, Chevy, or Plymouth. Now, you need to spend $300K for a “bespoke” Rolls-Royce to have much choice.
February 16th, 2018 at 5:32 pm
Sean is doing fine… He can only report what is going on or being thought about in the automotive industry on any given day…
February 16th, 2018 at 6:25 pm
29 I agree completely.
February 17th, 2018 at 4:19 am
I totally agree with #24. We live in a rural area and have a car and a pickup. We have to tote building materials quite often as well as haul our own trash. The pickup does the heavy lifting or the smelly toting, but the car gets twice the gas mileage; therefore we put a lot more miles on it. We’d hate to be limited to one or the other. We’ve had large SUVs in the past, but those were gas hogs too. The smaller ones can’t do the hauling, IMHO. I do like the idea of the mild hybrid, but I’m sure we can’t afford the price to buy one. That new RAM is lovely, but we still like the looks of our 21-yr old Dodge Ram and it serves our purposes.
Keep up the good work, Sean. Enjoy watching both you and John.
February 17th, 2018 at 8:45 am
I live in a semi-rural location for about 5 months of the year, and use a 4×8 flat bed trailer for the rare occasions that I need to transport building materials, dirty items, a motorcycle, etc. The trailer can be towed by almost any car.
February 18th, 2018 at 8:43 am
One measure of efficiency is the cost to drive the same car on electricity or gas, a plugin hybrid. We have two, a 2017 Prius Prime and 2014 BMW i3-REx.
The EPA lists the kWh/100mi and gallons/100mi and we can use local electrical rates and gasoline prices to calculate the cost to drive 100 miles. In Huntsville:
$0.10/kWh
$2.20/gal regular
$2.50/gal premium
2017 Prius Prime:
25kWh/100mi -> $2.50 to drive 100 EV miles
1.9gal/100mi -> $4.18 to drive 100 gas miles
2014 BMW i3-REx
29kWh/100mi -> $2.90 to drive 100 EV miles
2.6gal/100mi -> $6.50 to drive 100 premium gas miles
Same cars, the EV miles are roughly half the cost of gasoline miles. In Alabama our electricity comes from: natural gas (4.2k), nuclear (3.3k), “clean” coal (2.1k), hydroelectric (.8k), and renewables(.3k).
February 18th, 2018 at 9:50 am
33 …and the actual efficiency of the cars is about 2.5 times as high on electricity, as on gas for the Prime, and almost 3 times as high for the i3. A gallon of gas has 33.15 kWh of energy.
February 20th, 2018 at 8:23 am
#8 (Mark), can you identify a story you believe to be “made up”? This is not the only site I visit for auto news and I don’t see anything here that is out of line with everyone else.
February 21st, 2018 at 4:46 pm
Dolphin might have a market for Truck engines and train/marine engines. Both have the space for liquid nitrogen. Many trucks have bigger Air-Con to cool trailer temp so the nitrogen is already there. Marine can use seawater to assist cooling with massive savings. Both Ships, Long-haul trucks and trains have few hybrid or non-diesel alternatives bar liquid natural gas(LNG) for shipping.