AD #2463 – Continental Develops Biometric Technology, Why Long Range EVs Are Less Efficient, UK Bans “Reckless” Car Ads

October 24th, 2018 at 11:33am

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Runtime: 6:55

0:29 Ford Revamps China Operations
1:14 UK Bans “Reckless” Car Ads
1:48 Tesla to Announce Earnings
2:53 Continental Develops Biometric Technology
3:38 Navya Opens Assembly Plant in U.S.
4:06 Renault Moves Twizy Production to South Korea
5:05 Why Long Range EVs Are Less Efficient

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64 Comments to “AD #2463 – Continental Develops Biometric Technology, Why Long Range EVs Are Less Efficient, UK Bans “Reckless” Car Ads”

  1. Cycles Says:

    The Model X comparison is deceiving. The Efficiency difference between the 75D and P100D is not just batteries. The P100D has the “Performance” rear drive unit that is much less efficient than the one found in the 75D. A better comparison to isolate the difference attributable to the battery size would be to compare 75D to 100D. Those have the same drive unit configuration.

  2. Kit Gerhart Says:

    In reality, the difference in efficiency of various EV’s is irrelevant. Operating cost is so low it is a non-factor, even for the Tesla X.

  3. Larry D. Says:

    Plenty of news today and a critical earnings report for Tesla. I was surprised John stuck his neck out and predicted a profit will be announced. Were there any leaks before the announcement? I was not sure, but even if the losses were cut in half over last year, this would be progress. It takes years to be profitable, especially in such businesses. Look at Tesla’s rivals, we almost forgot their names by now, FIsker, Faraday motors (it is in really bad shape and may go broke soon) etc.

    I think if Tesla manages to make a profit now, it will be even higher profits until the Tesla 3 orders are all filled out, and then it depends on the success of its other new models. The S has been a HUGE hit, the X not so much, and the 3 is on its way to a STELLAR success.

    FORD: What in the world is going on?? Problems in China TOO? Ten years ago, GM and Chrysler went broke. Does anybody know if it is now Ford’s turn? And if not now, maybe a couple more years of utter mismanagement, could it result in Ford going broke too?

    EV Efficiency: They were never meant for 300 mile trips really, they are ideal for commuting, which is the VAST majority of miles driven in the USA. But, seriously, efficient? Compared to what? If you compare it to your GAS vehicle, the OPERATING cost of the EV is PEANUTS, and I expect the same for MAINTENANCE (very little will ever be needed) and Repairs, and battery replacement has so far proven to be not a major issue.

  4. Cycles Says:

    2- Efficiency means range and less recharging time. EV owners will notice these characteristics very quickly

  5. Chuck Grenci Says:

    Well, long range EV’s will use more energy than a lighter vehicle but there would be caveats that may even override that 10% mentioned. All things being equal, meaning the same amount of stop and go for the cycle between the two separate battery packs, then yeah the smaller one would be more efficient. What does change though would be if the 100 miles were highway (throughout); once that mass is accelerated to a steady speed, the difference the mass makes would be somewhat minimal. Once the mass is moving, the extra friction would be minimally increased due to the extra tire resistance (next to nothing).

  6. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The P100D, and the highest mileage version of Prius tie in operating cost, according to the EPA site.

  7. Kit Gerhart Says:

    We don’t hear about many battery replacements YET, but when the EVs are 15 years old, with 200K miles, there will have been a lot of battery replacements, or scrapped cars.

  8. MJB Says:

    I’ll pass on the biometric car tech. Here, during Michigan winters, I don’t want to have to remove my gloves to do a fingerprint scan or my scarf to complete facial recognition in order to gain access to and start my car.

    I’m getting by perfectly fine with my keyless entry/start key fob that never requires me to do anything other than be present.

  9. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I guess we’ll find out if Tesla made a profit, but it seems possible. Haven’t they quadrupled the number of cars delivered, compared to the previous quarter, now that Model 3 production is ramped up?

  10. Larry D. Says:

    7 if you have been reading the posts here, you would have noticed that we do, already. Vim Van Acker has posted that they use Tesla Ss as taxis in the Netherlands for a while already. I was very impressed when I read that, because most of Europe still relies on the almighty 2-liter (and sometimes 3-liter) Mercedes E class Diesels, who do millions of miles over their lifetimes.

    A cab does 100,000 km a year easy, or at least 50,000 miles a year. IF there are several Tesla S cabs operating for a couple years already, It sure means that even if they had to replace batteries (or parts thereof, the S batteries being thousands of laptop batteries put together), it was at a reasonable cost.

  11. Larry D. Says:

    10 correction I think it is Wim, not Vim, but the correct way to say it is Vim. I bet it is short for Willem, which is Wilhelm or William in Dutch.

  12. M Campbell Says:

    Ford, I’m soo offended by this ad for your Mustang!!

  13. Drew Says:

    If Tesla makes a profit, I hope the data delineates profits from sales of vehicles vs. sales of CO2 credits.

  14. Larry D. Says:

    I just spent 10 mins looking for numbers on commuting miles on the Web, read several reports, finally found a useful one who has what i needed, the average driver does almost 14,000 miles a year, and of these, 27.8% are commuting miles. Very few people have commutes over 100 miles. The average commute is 25 minutes.

    I am interested in all this because pure EVs are best used for commuting, and if a large fraction of all commuting miles in the US were done 100% on electricity (either pure EV or plug-in), it would be great for not only the commuter, who will save a bundle on gas or diesel, but for all the rest of us, not only in terms of cleaner air, but also because this drop in gas demand, other things being equal, should result in lower gas and diesel prices for all the test of us.

  15. Drew Says:

    @12 – Hmmm, a commercial that promotes the visceral sound of a rumbling V8 is ruled “reckless”. At least blind pedestrians can hear it coming and have plenty of time to react to its 15mph approach speed.

  16. Drew Says:

    @14 – But that is the conundrum, lower gas/petrol prices are why people don’t buy EVs.

  17. Larry D. Says:

    13 Curiosity killed the cat. Seriously, I would also be interested in that.

    I would also be interested to see the numbers if all other Carmakers would have to release not just their overall profits, but individual profits per model they make. Would you?

    For example, I would really like to know what percentage of Ford’s profits come from the F 150 (I predict 75%), what from all its SUVs combined (say another 25%) and from all its many cars together, wait, I get zero %! But I thought Ford is losing money from every car it makes!

    What say you Drew? I will broker a Deal, Tesla will tell you the % of the profits from carbon credits, and Ford will tell me all the ways in which every vehicle it makes has disappointed it, with the sole exception of the F 150!

  18. Larry D. Says:

    16 Not true at all in EUROPE, where gas prices are just OUTRAGEOUS at $8 a gallon or $ 10 in places, and even the cheaper Diesel there is very expensive compared to US prices, in the summer I paid $1.5 per liter diesel, or $6 per gallon, (1.3 euros/lt) while gas was around 1.65 Euros/lt and in some touristy isolated places even over 2 Euros/liter, or $10/gallon!

    So NO this is NOT the reason people don’t buy EVs. In Fact, in the US they now buy a TON of Tesla 3s, while in Europe, despite their outrageous $8-$10 gas, they still do not buy many!!!

  19. Kit Gerhart Says:

    10 Battery life is a function of years, as well as charge/discharge cycles. I suspect taxi use is ideal for a Tesla S, with lots of miles in a short period of time. The batteries might well last a million miles of taxi use, while they would probably be finished at 20K miles, if those miles are driven over a period of 20 years.

    Also, EVs make good big city taxis, in that they “export” the pollution from the city.

  20. Larry D. Says:

    Yesterday I saw a Ford Raptor. This HUGE vehicle (it looked extremely wide above all) looked like it was made from Legos, or like a Tonka toy on steroids.

    I also saw a rare Corolla sedan, latest variation, trying to look sporty and of course failing. But there is also a Corolla Hatch, which is not 3 years old, I believe it is a new model, which, like most hatches, sucks in sales. there was an article about it in TTAC today:

    Can you see the photo of this hatch? And if yes, can you tell me what is wrong with the people who designed it, and above all, who approved it?

  21. Kit Gerhart Says:

    18 Probably Europeans don’t buy many EVs, for the same reason I haven’t bought one, no place to charge it.

  22. Buzzerd Says:

    Kind of weird the UK government is so sensitive about the commercials when the Scottish government made this video in partnership with other groups.

  23. Larry D. Says:

    Tesla batteries (at least on the S) consist of 1,000 laptop batteries bundled together.

    Anybody knows if one has to replace the whole dam thing when it underperforms, or is it possible to replace individual laptop batteries, which would make the cost of battery repair/replacement a pittance?

    Again, I have been using laptops and their batteries for over 20 years and I have never seen a battery go bad. Same for other electronic items using the same kind of batteries. Of course there is a ‘change in use’ when you combine them to power an EV, which might change things.

  24. Buzzerd Says:

    There have been recalls on laptops and phones because of fires, I had an Apple laptop that had the battery replaced. Battery was slowly swelling making it hard to click the mouse thing at the bottom

  25. John McElroy Says:

    #1. Cycles, fair enough. A Model X 100D uses 39 kWh/100 miles vs. 36 for a 75D. The longer range one is still less efficient.

  26. Kit Gerhart Says:

    23 Have you used the same laptop battery for 20 years? If so, and it still works at all, you have been very lucky.

    The batteries I use for electric R/C airplanes rarely last more than 2-3 years, but they have a very rough life, being charged to full, and sometimes discharged to near empty. Also, they are discharged at high enough current that they get fairly warm, but this may be the case with EV batteries too.

  27. Kit Gerhart Says:

    24 About a year ago, I learned that batteries “puff up” when they are left fully charged. You should not leave the charger plugged into a laptop all the time, and if you are not going to use if for a while, you should store it at about 40% charge. At least that’s what I’ve read multiple places.

  28. Larry D. Says:

    26 it does not seem like luck. I have owned many, many pcs and laptops over the 20 years, and when I get a new one I do not throw the old away, I put them in various rooms around the house and use them on occasion. None of them ever had a battery problem, and when they are 1-5 years old, I use them all the time.

  29. Buzzerd Says:

    @27, I’ve read that also. The one that got replaced was covered under warranty. I think I read the supplier had trouble in the manufacturing. I believe foreign material got into the batteries if I’m remembering correctly. Either way – there was a recall.

  30. Larry D. Says:

    27 interesting. As a habit, I usually disconnect the laptop when fully charged. I have 60 and 90 min lectures where is the majority of the time I use the laptop, and usually I can do them without the charger, unless I forgot to charge them the day before. My desktops show they also have a battery and I have had any issues with their batteries since the…early 80s.

    But the big question I had is, if the Tesla battery underperforms, do you need to replace it as one unit, which might be expensive, or can you check one by one the 1,000 laptop batteries and replace as needed?

  31. ARHPG Says:

    #3: To the Tesla “fan-boy” club, delivering just half as much red ink is time to rejoice and pop the champagne! Rejoice, rejoice! If an actual profit does occur, the stock will probably shoot up 100 points or more.

  32. Lambo2015 Says:

    *Ford sucking in China too no big surprise there.
    *The Brits thinking a Fiat 500 is a sports car is a bigger problem than the car commercials. I think they will be fine.
    *Continental bio-metrics seems like they are just adding my phone features to a car. Is it needed? Well maybe various settings will be a good thing for ride sharing vehicles if its transmitted to a fleet of vehicles but not really needed as MJB mentioned not any more simple than having a fob in your pocket or purse.
    * Until a better battery is developed short range is the way to go even if more charging stations are installed. Because they still take more time to recharge than a gas fill-up. Probably makes the most sense for households with multiple cars so you can utilize the EV for your daily commute and have a second vehicle for trips or drives outside the range. They may find that even with more charging stations they are mostly charged at home and EV stations wont get much use.

  33. Larry D. Says:

    #31 Hahahahah… How did your GM and Chrysler stock did back in 2008? More relevant, how is your Ford stock doing the last few years? Obviously you know nothing about me. I own no tesla cars nor any tesla stock. I like bargains. I own two $10.5k and $11k E class Dirty Diesels. There is no used Tesla S under $30k, and those have 100k miles on them.

    Educate yourself. And for god’s sakes do not play with falling knives, and do not short any Tesla shares either. Obviously those professions were not meant for you.

  34. ARHPG Says:

    #31: You are obviously not a person of automotive history; you appear to wax on about the greatness of Tesla.

    We’ve said it many times before, the cars are magnificent, but the business model sucks. You mention Chrysler; consider how Walter P Chrysler gambled on the beginning of the Chrysler Corporation in 1924, just as controversial — if not more so — at that time as Elon Musk’s venture is now. The difference was that Chrysler was a disciplined, experienced and principled business executive who made a start-up company work. Until around 1950, Chrysler printed money.

    So this is the problem with Tesla, will it survive? I hope so, as I’m considering buying one of their cars; but with operating losses (up to now) of over $7,000 per minute, and only two profitable quarters since the very beginning of the company, and a 1 billion bond due in March, let’s hope that Musk can pull off some sort of business miracle. By the way, is it any wonder why Musk wanted to take the company private? He didn’t want to face the public reality of business-world profits and losses. He wants to run things “his way,” rather than the disciplined and accepted standard way of doing business.

  35. ARHPG Says:

    #33, rather.

  36. Kit Gerhart Says:

    28 Are you still using 20 year old laptops, with the original batteries still working? If so, I think you are lucky. At least I’ve never had laptop batteries last more than about 10 years, and usually less than that.

    30 It should be possible to replace individual cells, or “laptop battery” modules in a Tesla, but in most cases, that might not make a lot of sense. I’ve heard of individual cells of Prius batteries being replaced, though if the cells have decent quality control, they should all lose capacity, and eventually fail at around the same time. I suspect the Priuses with individual cells replaced are normally old ones, near the end of their service life. The large majority of the Prius batteries that have been replaced and/or serviced would be NiMH, since that is what they used until 2015. The failure modes of lithium batteries would be different, but servicing techniques should be similar.

    In time, we will know how all of this sorts out, as there are more electric cars on the road. So far, there aren’t any very old EVs out there. The first one sold in any volume, using lithium batteries, is Nissan Leaf, and it’s only been around since the 2010 model year.

  37. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Here’s an informative article about battery degradation of Nissan Leaf, the pure EV on the road long enough, and in large enough numbers to provide some data.

  38. Kit Gerhart Says:

  39. Chuck Grenci Says:

    Tesla may in fact announce a profit tomorrow, but if you rely on past performances, an excuse (for not posting a profit) may in fact be in the cards as well; patiently waiting for the announcement. I don’t have a dog in the fight but still interested in what will transpire (as with any automotive news).

  40. Larry D. Says:

    Tesla is the only Independent American Automaker who has succeeded and prospered, and not only that, in sharp contrast to Ford and GM and Chrysler, it has successfully sold its cars in overseas markets, while the Detroit 3 have not done so with any success since the 60s, where MANY in Europe, wealthy mostly, bought Mustangs and Cadillacs.

    While some Tesla proponents are unreasonable and annoying, I really do not see why ANY american would not wish they succeed, given all the above. UNLESS of course you are or work for a dealer, and are not allowed to sell them, OR even if you are a rival automaker, foreign or domestic, and you have suffered from Tesla’s success as your models (3 Series, C class, Lexus models, even Accords and Civics) were traded in for Teslas.

  41. ARHPG Says:

    #40: You are quite naive about Tesla. I think everyone wants the company to succeed — I want one of their cars, a low-mileage used Model S P100D with nearly 800 ft. lbs. of torque, instantly available so I can go ahead and detach a retina — but we are not stupid. We don’t imbibe the Jonestown Kool-Aid; Tesla is a poorly run company with extremely innovative products, but its cheerleaders simply don’t care about operating loses, quarter-after-quarter.

    We all hope the company succeeds, but you can’t continue to burn through cash at the rate of this company. Were it not for the remarkably inflated market cap, the company would be in serious jeopardy now.

  42. Lambo2015 Says:

    #40 apparently you do not know your automotive history as there has been many independent auto manufacturers over the years that were successful at least for a while. AMC and Willys were very successful. Some lesser known ones like Duesenberg, Studebaker, and Packard. Agreed none of them are still around but there is nothing to guarantee Tesla will be around in ten years.

  43. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Tesla is the most successful new car company in many years, at least in the U.S. Time will tell how that goes, long term. To me, Honda stands out as a relatively new car company, 1963 or so, which has become very successful globally. Hyundai also started selling cars in the ’60s. Will Tesla be around in 50 years? I won’t be around to find out.

  44. Bob Wilson Says:

    The financial summary for the earnings call:

  45. Bob Wilson Says:

    #31 – ” shoot up 100 points or more” Gosh I hope not. I’ve put my TSLA shares for sale at $420/share. I’ll have to add $50 to the sale price.

    #30 – “if the Tesla battery underperforms, do you need to replace it as one unit, which might be expensive, or can you check one by one the 1,000 laptop batteries and replace as needed?” It turns out each ‘brick’ of Tesla cells is just under 50 in parallel. So loss of one cell at most has a 2% effect on that brick. I throughly recommend looking for YouTube reports and Tesla battery pack disassembly.

    Tesla financials – Tesla has already released their Q3 earnings report. Read it and if you are still confused, post the questions Friday and I’ll try to answer them over the weekend.

    batteries – there are a lot of misinformation around … more than I have time tonight to address. Again, post the questions on Friday and I’ll try to address them. As for ‘battery swelling’, some do and some don’t, they all just get hot and burst into horrible fire and flames consuming everyone within 100 yards (well this is stretching the point.) Let’s resume the discussion over the weekend after looking at my web link.

  46. Bob Wilson Says:

    I sure hope Autoline TV decides to do an After Hours or This Week on the Tesla Q3 financials and technology. Sandy Munro would be a great guest along with Chelsea Sexton.

  47. Kit Gerhart Says:

    45. I’m still not used to lithium cells routinely being connected in parallel, while, for multiple reasons, that does not work well with nicad cells, and probably with NiMH cells. For one thing, nicads normally fail shorted, which would not be good with parallel connected cells.

  48. Larry D. Says:

    42 You are lucky you have an excuse for all your false accusations, and it is that I did not specify a time interval for the independent automakers, OF COURSE I meant every independent Automaker AFTER the Detroit Big 3 became dominant, and if there is a historian here he or she can tell us when that was, but a good point would be when Chrysler BOUGHT your AMC/Jeep (Willy) in the early 80s, when it was NOT doing as well AT ALL as you allege. SO all the losers after that, and many before, had a humiliating end, and that includes the ridiculous BRICKLIN, and even worse DELOREAN, and even your precious Tucker long before that, which I believe barely sold FIFTY cars total!

    You and many here REALLY underestimate Elon Musk, and if you were following the news, in and outside of the Auto Industry, you would have vastly more respect for his abilities.

    Finally, Give me a Break. You think I don’t know Duesenberg??!! Studebaker? Packard? Especially Packard who was the US Rolls Royce of the 30s

    I may not know a thing (and also not care) about F1 and NASCAR and all that, but I sure know my Auto history, and the European Auto History in particular, you know, the guys that really invented the Auto, like Gottlieb Daimler and Karl Benz, and not just those who mass produced it like Henry Ford.

  49. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Elwood Haynes invented the car. Well, that’s the lore in my home town of Kokomo, IN. He actually did make the first, or one of the first commercially successful cars in the U.S.

  50. Larry D. Says:

    I looked up Autoblog for an analysis of Tesla’s Stellar Q3. And I am choosing my adjectives precisely, NO Hype.

    It is not just the 312 mill in profits for just Q3.

    it is the amazing production, and, especially DELIVERIES in Q3, in which it delivered 56,065 Model 3′s and 27,710 models S&X combined, for a total of 83,775 vehicles in just ONE Quarter! And the first months of that quarter, the tesla 3 was not in full swing. So for a full year, at least 335,000 vehicles!!!

    THose of you that follow sales numbers for US cars in detail will appreciate the above.

    By comparison, your precious Volvo sells not even 20% of what Tesla now sells! Even the Mercedes and BMW groups each sell less than the above.

    AND the most amazing thing, these are NOT Cheap Subarus, they are $60,000 to $120,000 vehicles all!

    I dare anybody to find me any US or Foreign Automaker who sells int he US market, and can compete with the above in the same price range.

    Read the earnings report, and if you don’t have the time or the background to read the financial tables, at least see the comparison charts!

  51. Kit Gerhart Says:

  52. Larry D. Says:

    49 the Soviets claimed they invented the car, even though it became a capitalist tool, as well as the Television set. (I am not kidding about the second one)

  53. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Didn’t a Frenchman make the first car, in the 1700′s? It was steam, and the driver was killed because it got going down a hill, and didn’t have brakes.

  54. Larry D. Says:

    I am still reading the financials and keep being amazed at both the results AND the potential!

    In the charts, in Q3, while the Tesla 3 was the fifth best selling of all US sold cars, after the four biggies, Accord Camry Civic and Corolla, a comparison which is of course apples (low priced biggies) and oranges (much pricier Model 3),

    there is another bar chart which makes a VALID comparison, REVENUE generated by each of the five, and then the Model 3 generated the MOST revenue of ANY US car in Q3,

    of over $3.0 billion, compared with the 2.1 billion of fleet queen Camry, the barely 2 billion for the Accord, 1.6 billion for the popular civic and 1.4 bill for the Corolla.

    The POTENTIAL of the model 3, however, is immense, because they have NOT yet started selling it in Europe, where the market for similar priced vehicles is TWICE as big as the US market. AND if I add the Champion of EV sales, the China market, this becomes truly mind boggling.

    How come the Automotive Press, nobody in all the publications I follow, never pointed all that out to us?

    In contrast, FORD also posted earnings today. They took a terrible beating, down 37%, and no light in the end of the tunnel as long as the chairmaker from Steelcase and Bill Ford run the show.

  55. Kit Gerhart Says:

  56. Kit Gerhart Says:

    It would seem that Tesla’s long term prospects will depend on how long they can sell 5000 cars a week, at seriously inflated prices, and how well they adjust to selling at less inflated prices. A Model 3 is not a luxury car, in the usual sense, but for now, it is selling at luxury car prices. At some point, the company will need to actually sell “affordable” cars, and make money while doing so.

  57. Larry D. Says:

    56 I adressed the “how long” in 54, and the answer is “as far as the eye can see”

    ALSO, NO, the Model 3 SURE is NOT inflated. it is a performance car like the 3 series and is priced accordingly. The ones that sure are hugely inflated are your BOLT and VOLT, and this is why they FAILED.

    BMW and similar carmakers were caught with their pants down, their EVs, if they are any good, are years from now, and the Model 3 has the field all to itself. BYW, have you seen recent 3 series? THEY are no luxury car either, and they never were, they were near-luxury.

    I was wrong about Musk’s net worth some time ago, I thought he was just worth a couple billion, but it turned out he is worth 20 (!!) or more, and after the deal his shareholders approved, and given Tesla’s stellar success, I estimate him to be worth $50 billion very soon.

  58. ARHPG Says:

    #50: You really don’t have a clue. As if in some sort of bubble, you’re all giddy about the $312 million in profit for the third quarter, but this is the first profit the company has made, except for two previous quarters, for the entire previous fifteen years since the company began producing cars. Think about that for a moment. No profit in fifteen years! To sustain the business operation, stock had to be sold from Tesla and from the solar company, and Musk had to take out loans and then request that people put down deposits for cars that were well down the road from production and that were promised long ago. The stock is down, at least until the quarter results were reported for a momentary blip, and it has declined nearly 20% overall since the late summer alone. How can something like that be “amazing,” as you state about this or that accomplishment at Tesla?

    Tesla has about $3 billion in operating cash on hand, up slightly, but the company faces a bond payments of nearly ¼ billion next month and over $900 million in the early spring of 2019. Giddy, no. Frightening, definitely. You dare anybody to find a US or foreign automaker who can compete with Tesla! That’s right, all the other manufactures manage to actually earn money!

    Building the Model 3 to 53,000 units for the quarter is definitely impressive and speaks well of the determination of the Tesla organization, but the problem isn’t producing the cars, but the problem is really more like distributing them. Tesla, of course, arrogantly knew more than the entire rest of the automotive business and eschewed customary, standard, product distribution. This is the expression Musk used to describe it: “delivery logistics hell.” Now, of course, cars are lined up to be distributed to customers, absorbed in Musk’s own delivery logistics hell.

    Tesla has yet to sell a single Model 3 at the original price of $35k. Most deposits were made on the premise that one could buy this wonderful base-model car that would do so much and look good, etc., for $35k, but in actuality, it is the $45-65k versions that are being built and sold. Even Musk admits that the base model cannot be made at a profit at this time. Many, many deposits have been refunded, and next year, the company will have no other choice but to furnish the $35k base version, and being profitable with that one will be yet another major milestone for the company to reach.

  59. Bob Wilson Says:

    #58 – “Tesla has yet to sell a single Model 3 at the original price of $35k.” Musk started with the high profit margin Model 3 which saturated their production lines.

    Once the upscale demand softens, they can go down scale. Only now they will have learned how to build them better. Strange irony, the early adopters get the problem cars and the later buyers get the better build at an affordable price.

  60. Lambo2015 Says:

    Larry I didnt make any false accusations. And I have nothing against Tesla. I do hope they do well in fact I interviewed with them two years ago. But after a tour of the Fremont facility I knew they would struggle to reach production volume on the model 3 two years ago.
    What I do take issue with is the comments you make of original big three which have been in business for over 100 years. Yes they have had their ups and downs as I’m sure Tesla will too. Sadly thats the nature of the auto industry. Its very much a reflection of the economy and as that fluctuates so does the car market. Tesla is in a good position as the economy is doing well right as they are ramping up. Will it continue when we see our next downturn? Time will tell. The one thing Tesla has over all other manufacturers is a buyer interest similar to Apple or Google. Its a refreshing company that is trying to do things a little differently and release products that all these other manufacturers that have been in business for many many years have been unable to do. The bureaucracy of a very large company is an anchor when it comes to change direction. No doubt Tesla is exciting and new and has the potential to change the auto industry forever. That alone is a monumental task. Being a cheerleader for them is fine but doesnt need to negate the many years of success and accomplishments of Ford and GM. JMHO

  61. Kit Gerhart Says:

    57 Model 3′s are now selling at about the same price as a base E-Class. Compare the interior of a Model 3 with an E-Class, either new, or your 10 year old one. Compare the ride quality, and wind and road noise with an E-Class. That’s why I saw $60K is an inflated price for the Model 3, for what is clearly a non-luxury car. As far as the 3 series, you can actually buy one for under $40K.

    Yeah, the Model 3 has exceptional performance, with 5 second 0-60 times, even the basic version.

  62. Larry D. Says:

    61 My 2007 E diesel is 11-12 year old now and has 115k miles. And while it is high quality inside and out, it does not have real leather but MB-Tex (it is far superior to vinyl and other plastics, but does not smell like leather). It does have acres of wood though.

    I did not claim Teslas are “luxury” cars, I said they are “performance” cars.

    Any car can ‘ride’ well, even Lincolns do, but few can HANDLE like a Tesla sedan, S or 3. And as long as they are dirty gas cars, they never will achieve the low CG that allows Teslas to handle as well as they do.

    On top of that you cited the acceleration. You will never get a 3 series, which is what the S is a rival to, with the Tesla 3 accel for $40k. You will be lucky to pay $60k, with options.

    More important, Tesla buyers are a totally different demographic than most people in this forum. I am close to retirement age and most others here are older than I am. Tesla buyers, especially the more affordable 3, are very young, and when the $35k version and the cheap Y crossover go on sale in 19 and 20 respectively, they will be even younger. I doubt any of them cross-shopped for an E class (esp the diesel) if they knew what they were doing.

    Ford and GM would kill for demos like this. it is the exact opposite to Lincoln drivers I see.

    Musk said the next quarters will be all profitable except the ones where a big debt payment is due, Q4 or Q1 19. I did not notice if this is just one Q per year.

  63. Larry D. Says:

    60 you did claim I did not know what Duesenbergs and Packards were, among other things. Comments here remain, you can go see yours again. But you keep doing it in 60. Are you implying that I am a “Tesla Cheerleader”? Just because I bring up the bad news to its rivals? I don’t even own a Tesla nor does it look like I will get one soon.

    As for my criticism of the so-called domestics, why are they protected from pointing out their very serious problems? With regard to Ford, I am hardly the only one, it is fairly unanimous here and in other forums. But I also point out the problems at GM, where Mary Barra gets 3 “employee of the month” awards a month, but the company is not doing as well as it could.

    More criticisms of GM and in particular this whole smoke and mirrors “Cruise” program has surfaced lately. Many believe the program is not doing well at all, and also that the reason for doing it was to impress Wall Street types and help the stock rise, while in reality it is not worth doing.

  64. Lambo2015 Says:

    63 I think everyone on this site can see by your multiple posts daily you are Tesla’s biggest Cheerleader. I didnt claim you did not know about Duesenburg or Parkard, I claimed you may not know your automotive history if you think Tesla is the only successful US independent automaker. By the buy out and or eventual closing of all those makers they could be considered failures now. My point was when they launched and were selling cars much like Tesla I’m sure people invested and thought they were great too. However in time Tesla could experience the same fate. Hopefully they wont they have a lot going for them. Not sure what part of the country your from but in the area of the motor city there is a lot of pride with the many vehicles that have rolled out of Detroit. I personally would take a resto-mod 67 GTO over a Tesla or most cars on the road today. With its dirty gas engine and all.