AD #2498 – Honda Develops Autonomous ATV, NADA Predicts Sales Drop, Five Different Types of Hybrids

December 14th, 2018 at 11:27am

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Runtime: 7:15

0:27 NADA Predicts Sales Drop
0:49 Car Dealers Mad at Car Companies
1:23 Trump Wrong About GM EV Effort
2:31 Honda Develops Autonomous ATV
3:05 Five Different Types of Hybrids
4:51 Care by Volvo More Popular Than Expected

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47 Comments to “AD #2498 – Honda Develops Autonomous ATV, NADA Predicts Sales Drop, Five Different Types of Hybrids”

  1. Larry D. Says:

    John,

    Thanks for the comprehensive explanations of the 5 kinds of hybrids. In fact there are 10 or so kinds, assuming you can have a plug-in version of each. (maybe not possible for all 5, or not advisable anyway for some of them)

    I have no idea why Trump would comment on GM’s EV plans, and make such a sweeping blunder that it is going all-electric. GM has already lost billions and has very little to show for it, and in essence has admitted defeat by canceling the Volt.

    Maybe Trump wanted to criticize the billions spent on AVs and Mobility nonsense. BTW in Arizona, where earlier an AV killed a woman, many drivers have been attacking Waymo vehicles, slashing tires, firing guns at them, and the like. A specific 69 year old male was mentioned. maybe you’ll see it on Monday’s show.

    As for pitiful Volvo, once more its very talkative cheerleader (more accurately, the head of the failed US operations) is in the news, and as usual, he brags about a pittance, 2,000 only in the subscription service? (was hard to understand what he was saying with his thick Swedish accent). Again, VOlvo has a dismally low market share in the US, 0.5% (!!!), and even in Europe, where it sells a lot of cheaper models, it is not doing great either, and its cars I have been driven in there are cheap inside and the rear seats are really crowded, too little leg or head room.

  2. Ziggy Says:

    I don’t think GM has too much to worry about from Trump, he isn’t going to be in office much longer if things keep going the way they are, with any luck the only thing he will be in charge of will be the lunch line at the federal prison of his choice.

  3. XA351GT Says:

    I don’t know if I’d say GM is admitting defeat by cancelling the Volt or doubling down and saying they are eliminating Hybrids in favor of EVs . My own personal opinion is I think this massive switch to EVs will end many companies. They are and have been losing money on the EVS they make now. So unless a massive advancement happens that allow them to build them for less and charge less for them They will struggle to sell them. At least in the same volumes as ICE does now.

  4. WineGeek Gelven Says:

    Hey John, Trump’s version of fact changes by the second it’s not worth much one second after he says it.

  5. lambo2015 Says:

    I don’t blame dealers for being mad at the car companies. Since there is such little money in new car sales and used sales and service is where the money is I can see why places like CarMax will continue to do well. Which will make it even harder for the dealers.

    Good Job Honda making something useful out of the AV technology. Very cool.

    Yea thanks John for the EV explanation.

  6. Lex Says:

    John,

    Thank you for the fantastic explanation of all the different type of hybrids there are in the market place.

    Great Show!

  7. Larry D. Says:

    3 Your point is correct, I also considered the Volt a plug-in Hybrid and not an EV, but before it made the pure EV Bolt, GM was always claiming that the Volt was also an EV, just because it used its gas engine only to charge the battery on long trips, and its working power plan was the electric motor.

    I don’t really think GM has a massive EV development program. They do waste billions on AVs and Mobility and that Cruise thing.

    Most companies make EVs despite their wishes, to comply with Govt Mandates. So far only Tesla has figured out a way to make them at a profit, according to Munro here.

    What I am hoping is that others will catch up. VW is going EV big way, and given it was the developer of the original people’s car, the beetle and the excellent Golf (whose US sales are always low but internationally it has been a Monumental Hit for 4 decades), maybe they will be able to make a people’s EV and undercut the model 3.

  8. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Trump says: “They’ve changed the whole model of General Motors. They’ve gone to all-electric.” He says that, even as they just announce plans to drop their second most “electric” car, the Volt.

    Probably most of the 20 “electric vehicles” GM plans to announce by 2023 will be various mild hybrids, except maybe a new pure EV or two, mostly for China.

    I think they should re-launch the Volt powertrain in a more fashionable vehicle, like Equinox, where it might sell better. The powertrain would need to be scaled up, though, for a vehicle that big and heavy. The current Volt is only 149 hp.

  9. Kit Gerhart Says:

    6 A Volt runs only from the electric motor until the battery is dead, so it is an “EV” for about 50 miles per full charge, but carrying around quite a bit of extra hardware. When the battery is dead, it runs as a series powertrain at lower speed, and the engine is clutched directly to the wheels at higher speed for better mpg.

  10. ChuckGrenci Says:

    NADA may be right about production reduction but it will just be this time. The other predictions for the last couple of years have been weak, or all the way, to poor (but I guess that’s part of their job, to guess on production figures or like the weather man, tell you why something happened after the fact of an incorrect prediction).

    Trump may have not been totally correct in his review of GM’s announcement but he sure has a point. I’m a GM fan (I go way back) but I still get miffed when GM orphans cars (and their owners) without a clear declaration of what they have planned for the future. Some of those owners, hanging in the lurch, are not coming back and will look elsewhere when that next vehicle is purchased.

  11. Alemarle Says:

    What will be most ingenius in the auto industry will be their explanation of how they can call a car electric.

    “Yes, it has a turbo 4 engine, but it’s got 10 USB ports and an extra cigarette lighter plug in the back. We have added a 180 amp alternator for the sound system alone. It’s our most electric model.”

  12. Albemarle Says:

    Hey, someone stole my comment!

  13. Kit Gerhart Says:

    9 GM is “orphaning” two of my favorite GM cars, Volt and CT6, Of course, I never bought either, so, in a small way, I contributed to their being dropped.

    6 The current e-Golf has only 125 mile EPA range, but with an MSRP of ~$31K, it could be a good commuter car for a lot of people who just “want” an electric car. At a price premium of $8-10K over a similarly equipped gas Golf, it would never be cost effective for anyone, at least at today’s gas prices. I suspect they will find a way to get a lot more battery in the next e-Golf.

  14. Danny Turnpaugh Says:

    #2 I know we all have political thoughts and opinions, but this should be about the information that Autoline daily has put out and auto industry. We all have the chance to change government leaders at the next election. Have a nice weekend .

  15. lambo2015 Says:

    The economies of scale will help bring EV prices down, so I get the incentives and government assistance to try and get this technology to market. But until 1) Gas goes back to $4 a gallon 2) EVs are priced within 10% of a comparable ICE and 3) charging is similar in convivence and time I just don’t see the large majority of the public willing to switch to electric. So they can continue to build all the EVs they want but if the market isn’t there its going to be a huge ripple in the industry. IMO

  16. ChuckGrenci Says:

    13, lambo
    Amen :D

  17. Kit Gerhart Says:

    13, 14 I agree that EVs are a long way from completely replacing gas cars, but they can be great commuter cars for those who can charge them overnight at home. Yeah, the price needs to come down for EVs to sell well, even as commuter cars.

  18. Drew Says:

    In suburbia where people park their vehicles in a garage, I can understand a garage portfolio that includes one EV for daily trips within a “manageable” range. Lambo’s conditions still apply because the cost to install a good overnight (<6 hour) charger is a deal-breaker for many people.

  19. lambo2015 Says:

    #15 Yeah that’s the big problem the vehicle that works best for EV is the small commuter car which typically has been the cheapest of cars to buy. So throw a premium price and its a hard sell.

  20. Ziggy Says:

    #12 My comment was exactly about what was in the show, perhaps you should pay attention a little better than waste your time commenting on things that don’t apply. And I don’t care if you have a nice weekend.

  21. BobD Says:

    On the five different types of hybrids… I don’t think P0 thru P4 designations are standard industry terminology, rather they are just the five types of hybrids that B-W happen to sell. There are many other types.

    On GM dropping sedans, they did get some loyalists to move up their purchasing schedule… I just ordered a 2019 Cruze to replace my 2016. Yesterday was the last day to order a retail Cruze. Last week was the last you could have ordered an Impala or Volt. Sad.

  22. Kit Gerhart Says:

    19 I think GM is keeping Malibu, are they not? It sort of replaces both Cruze and Impala, but not completely. Cruze is cheaper, and Impala roomier. What is the status of Sonic? I haven’t heard much about that one.

  23. Kit Gerhart Says:

    With hybrids, I like Toyota’s and Ford’s systems with two motor generators, and nothing but gears in the transmission. It is smooth, efficient, and reliable.

  24. Kit Gerhart Says:

    19. Yep, Borg-Warner’s designations completely ignore the system used by Toyota, Ford, and others under license, that make up the vast majority of hybrids, and don’t even have a transmission, in thr usual sense. B-W is developing hardware that should be highly adaptable to existing powertrains, though.

  25. Chuck Grenci Says:

    I talked to a representative at the Epcot Test Track and he said Sonic was safe. So maybe safe; can’t trust anyone though.

  26. Danny Turnpaugh Says:

    #18, Ziggy I’m going to have a great weekend cause I pissed you off.

  27. joe Says:

    Ziggy Says from #2,
    You’ve brought politics into this, and I will respond. In case you don’t know, many voters like Trump very much. He may be crude at times, but he gets things done even when liberals like yourself oppose him every step of the way. He trying to fulfill his campaign promises and has done a lot of good and the media will never admit so. You should give him a little respect and keep your nasty remarks to yourself. He is your president.

  28. Kit Gerhart Says:

    25 Yeah, he gets things done, like turning the U.S A. into a rogue state, and running off all of the allies we once had. Regarding promises, has he received a check from Mexico for that wall?

  29. Ed Says:

    #26 the United States is a sovereign nation. Not a “rogue state” a “vassal “ child of the Chinese or European Union.
    I am proud of the way we make things go. The United States of America is still the envy of the world. That is why the world is coming to us in the legal and illegal droves that they are.

  30. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Our president can not be trusted to honor aggreements, and not just those made by Obama. He wants to continue to send war materials to a regime which kills journalists with American media. Even the GOP senate has a problem with that.

  31. XA351GT Says:

    Sure everyone wants to be your ally when you are the one paying all the bills. Asking other nations to pay what they agreed to isn’t running off allies it’s unloading freeloaders. Wanting to be treated fairly in trade is such a crime. Because every other a$$ kiss in government before bent over and now someone has said enough should make people happy that there is someone actually standing up for them for once instead of lining their pockets through sham foundations.
    .

  32. Kit Gerhart Says:

    29. There is more than just money involved with Trump’s insults of nearly everyone except Putin, Erdogan, Duterte, and the Saudi crown prince. OK, I’ll quit talking politics here. Sorry. No one is going to change anyone’s opinion.

  33. Larry D. Says:

    11 I never referred to the failed e-Golf. I mentioned the two huge VW successes, the original Beetle and the (non-E) Golf. If they want to add a third, their current E-Golf will not be of much use. VW Group has vast resources, and Porsche, among its many members, has done a huge amount of EV research. Despite the stellar success of the 911 (one million sold, even at six figures, and at a $20,000 a unit profit (in today’s $)), they know EVs are the Future.

    13 In Europe gas prices have been $7 to $9 and even $10 a gallon in remote tourist areas, and EVs have had little success in the past. EV buyers do not go Electric to save on gas. In Addition, I really doubt many of them, who switch from $25-35k TOyotas to $100k Tesla Ss and Xs, care one bit about the price being only 10% higher, because they never really compare the two, it is apples and oranges, a whole different lifestyle and experience.

    16 many employers offer free charging and fas charging at work. Availability will rise in leaps bounds, as it has done already for many years. None of these issues is an EV killer.

    19 Just curious, when you replaced your 2016 Cruze, how many miles was on it, and did you bother to check out the competition, not so much from the domestics, but especially from the new Civic?

    20 Keeping the Malibu makes far more sense than keeping that utter loser the ugly Sonic, which barely sells at all, and only with substantial discounts. GM should never ever have offered either the Sonic or the even smaller Spark, if they were serious about being profitable. probably it was another damned MPG EPA CAFE BS, the same reason they had to waste billions developing the Volts and the Bolts, and then abandoning the VOlt already and the Bolt who knows when.

    23 Sonic safe (I assume from the beancounter’s axe?) I have no clue why GM ever offered it in the first place. A totally mediocre offering in a field nobody cares about ( subcompact sedans and hatches)

    26 There are MANY, MANY ways Mexico could pay for the wall, that have no ‘check’. Even considering the benefits to the US economy from the horrible Drug and Opioid epidemic reduction would make the wall pay for itself 10 times over, without the MExicans sending one peso.

    A nation that cannot control its borders has no chance in the age of Terrorism, with daily massacres of innocent all over the world, and 99% of the cases by Islamofascist US haters.

    AND it is above all an issue of fairness and common sense, we prohibit the entrance to brilliant engineers desperately needed by our most successful industries, and we let illegal unskilled immigrants come at will? WHY? So that rich people can employ them to build their homes and mow their lawns at starvation wages, taking Jobs away from the Poorest of the US citizens? Really?

  34. Larry D. Says:

    26 Really? How has Trump turned the US into a rogue state? Wasn’t it under OBAMA that the shameless Putin violated all international law and snatched the Krimea from the Ukraine? What did the incompetent and timid Obama administration do? NOTHING. Sanctions? a JOKE.

    27 You are absolutely correct in every thing you wrote.

    28 SUCKER DEALS signed under previous administrations, whether they were corrupt or just incompetent and stupid, and hurt the US economy, should be terminated. The case of Intellectual Property Theft by the CHinese is IMHO the most Egregious example, and the previous Administrations did not dare to do anything about it. If the USA was some little weak nation with no army, I would understand the APPEASEMENT. But after the Great Reagan won the Cold war with not one shot fired, the US is the ONLY Superpower, really, and the rest of the world call the US president “THE PLANETARCH”. Some Planetarchs we had in previous years!!

  35. Larry D. Says:

    30 I am a textbook example of somebody who changed his opinions big time over the years. In 1992, when I had to register for a party to vote in the primaries, I registered Dem and have not changed it since, but after holding my nose and voting (after careful consideration) for Bill Clinton in 1992, I did not even bother to vote for Bob Dole in 1996 (even tho I always liked the guy) and have not voted for any Dem since 1998, not even for a Dog Catcher. AS the great Reagan said, who also was a former Dem, “I did not leave the Party, the Party left me.”

    From memory- Churchill (always inimitably) said, you are a liberal, socialist, leftie or whatever when you are young, to show you have a heart, and you become a Conservative (or Capitalist if you prefer, for free markets and free (AND FAIR) Trade), when you mature, to show you also have a Brain.

  36. ChuckGrenci Says:

    The Sonic and Malibu will remain (at least for now); Spark never made a dent (in sales) and Cruze, while pretty good, was too close to the Malibu, which needs and will stay, for the foreseeable future. Hopefully two sedans will make profitable sense and can keep GM in the car market if it sparks back to life. There still is the Buick Regal (but I don’t know the fate of that one).

  37. bradley cross Says:

    There will be some crazy deals on GM sedans next year. Plus the used prices will also then go down.

  38. Larry D. Says:

    Yesterday at noon I drove to a couple stores for my weekly shopping, and bought a brand new Silver Tesla X, my first Tesla ever.

    Unfortunately, neither the doors nor the windows are operational.

    Before you remind me that you told me so, I should note, what would you expect, I only paid $0.50 for it. In fact, I bought the maximum of 5 new cars or trucks the offer allowed.

    The others were a Mustang Convertible, black with grey seats and a wide white stripe along its middle, a yellow Mercedes GT coupe, (not sure about the alphanumeric here) an Audi S6 station wagon chose it over a tiny red M2) and an exotic Pagani roadster.

    In case you did not guess it, all these new cars were “Hot Wheels” models, which are claimed to be 1:64 scale, but I doubt any of them are, since they all have about the same length.

    The Tesla X is another subject where I have changed my opinion, I used to like the S and the Model 3 and not the X, but it did look great as a scale model, a minivan with sporty lines and looking like nothing else (not even a BMW X6) out there.

    Nobody wants minivans? How come Tesla is able to sell a $100,000+ one by the thousands (3,000 each month!)?

  39. Larry D. Says:

    I was doing my weekly check of the Top Gear webpage and they happened to have an article on VW’s planned new EV (which is also Golf-sized AND GOlf-priced(!!!) with a range of 200-300 miles). Just by coincidence, they also ask the question I asked here, will this be another megahit like the original Beetle or Golf?

    https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/heres-what-we-learned-driving-volkswagens-id-electric-car

  40. Kit Gerhart Says:

    33 Car and Driver liked the “failed e-Golf, and it made their 10 best list one year because it drives, and has the utility of a regular Golf. Yeah, it doesn’t have much range, so works mainly as a commuter car for people with “average” commutes.

  41. Kit Gerhart Says:

    39 If it actually is Golf priced, low-mid 20K, and has that range, and the utility of a Golf, it should be a big seller.

  42. Kit Gerhart Says:

    35 The Republican party certainly left me. I voted for Nixon in 1968, my first vote for president. He signed off on the EPA. He honored agreements made by previous presidents, and signed the landmark SALT 1 arms control agreement. He maintained reasonably good relationships with western allies. He did not “suck up” to murderous, and authoritarian regimes. All of that is quite a contrast to today’s GOP. Yeah, Nixon was a crook, but compared to what we have now, not so much.

  43. Larry D. Says:

    40 While I read C&D regularly and I find its comprehensive test data useful, naming the E-Golf in their top ten list was not their only and not even their worst blunder, if you go back. I believe they even made that pitiful Renault “Alliance” model in the 80s ‘car of the year’, if not, definitely int he top 10, while it should be in the bottom 10.

    The e-golf failed without question, as did the E MINI, the E 500, the E Smart, and a ton of other Es, and as did most Hybrids, except for the Prius. This is a show about the automotive INDUSTRY and not the Automotive Salvation Army, a model that loses its maker billions and does not sell is a Failure, whether it has nice handling or a spacious trunk. Similarly, the Caddy ATS may have handled better than the 3 series, but it also failed miserably. A few more models like these, and you go out of business.

  44. Larry D. Says:

    39 The precice promise is that it is priced like some Diesel Golf model that sells in Europe, which has good HP. it did not mention how much it sells for, but Golf’s are upscale there, and not cheap. A Golf-sized EV with 200- 300 miles range for $25k should sell great. And if they can put the batteries on the floor, it will handle much better than the gas or diesel Golf. I might even consider it myself to replace the 2008 E diesel in the summer home, especially if I spend more than a few months per year there, the E 320 has annual license fees of more than $1,000 (970 Euros) but I pay pro-rated per month of use.

  45. Larry D. Says:

    42 Most people, esp. abroad, do not even realize that Lincoln was a Republican. Carter won because people punished the Republicans for Nixon’s misdeeds. Nixon himself was anything but a real Republican, and it showed in his wage and price controls, a failed Socialist econ policy which failed again when he used it to fight inflation. JFK, on the other hand, was a very conservative Democrat (to a fault, in civil Rights he did not do the job, LBJ did) who understood why lower tax RATES (and he DID cut the rates big time) not only benefit the Economy but also increase the tax Revenue of the Govt! Carter did terribly, despite his good intentions and his alleged intelligence (compared to the usual non-engineers who become Prez), he did not understand that the Prez should encourage and motivate the citizens, like Reagan successfully did, instead of… saying how much ‘malaise’ the country is in!

    Every Rep president I have seen in action (I leave Nixon aside for he was not a true Rep, and neither is Trump, who has shaken the Rep party big time) has been demonized and treated most unfairly by the media. Reagan was portrayed as a senile B-grade actor, despite his excellent qualifications as 2-term governor of our Biggest State (not Arkansas!), GHWB, the ultimate gentleman and decent fellow, the War Hero, was portrayed as a “Wimp” (!!!) and never mind he had the most perfect resume to become Prez (except he did not serve as Governor, which hurt him when he underestimated the economy), compare to the clueless Obama whose “job” was… “Community organizer in that murder capital Chicago, and he became prez after just 2 years in the senate!) G W Bush was labeled an idiot and even a liar, and Trump of course everything under the sun.

    In 2016, there were plenty of deserving Rep candidates out of the huge field of 16, and Trump ( who was a Dem before) sure was not my choice, but he beat every single one of them professionals, and he even beat the whole Clinton machine in the election. He sure showed that professional politicians are not that bright…

  46. Kit Gerhart Says:

    43 Renault Alliance was Motor Trend car of the year, and made the C and D 10 best list. A friend had one, and said it rode well for a car its size, but it was very unreliable.

  47. Lambo2015 Says:

    I try not to get involved in the political comments because its kind of like religion and you typically have as much chance of changing anyones mind as you do with religion.
    What I do have a problem with is the lack of respect people have for the position. Regardless of how you feel about his policies, tactics, tweets or even his ability the fact of the matter is he is our president. I’m not a huge fan but I wasn’t a fan of Obama either. However if I ever got the opportunity to meet him I would have respected him as my president. I was living in L.A. during the 2016 election and those people lost their mind over the election. Protesting and carrying signs saying “not my president” I was like then take the next flight outta here. As someone else mentioned this is our country and we vote for our leader and in 2 more years he will be up for relection and maybe will stay or maybe go but either way I’m proud to live in the USA and support whoever is in office regardless if I agree with everything they do. You cant please everyone and I feel that most are a bit crooked to begin with. If you leave office 10 times wealthier than you came in.. Something crooked about that and it happens all the time.