AD #2621 – People Leery of Used EVs, Plasma Ignition the Future of ICEs? Ford’s Next-Gen Automated Parking System

June 21st, 2019 at 11:56am

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Listen to “AD #2621 – People Leery of Used EVs, Plasma Ignition the Future of ICEs? Ford's Next-Gen Automated Parking System” on Spreaker.

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Runtime: 8:36

0:07 Renault & Nissan Kiss and Make Up
0:23 Japanese Government Torpedoed FCA-Renault Merger
1:08 Carlos Ghosn Thrown Out at Mitsubishi
1:56 People Leery of Used EVs
2:29 48-Volt EVs Could Boost EV Adoption
3:30 Plasma Ignition Could Breathe New Life Into ICEs
4:55 Ford’s Next-Gen Automated Parking System

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43 Comments to “AD #2621 – People Leery of Used EVs, Plasma Ignition the Future of ICEs? Ford’s Next-Gen Automated Parking System”

  1. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Something that would help sell used EVs, would be a 10 year, 120K mile battery warranty.

  2. Larry D. Says:

    Another worthless ‘research’ by the clueless Merill Lynch. Instead of opening their eyes and looking at USED TESLA PRICES, which would show them they are FAR higher than the best luxury ICE flagships of the same age and miles. they instead ask some clueless people off the street.

    The FACTS show that DESIRABLE EVs with adequate range and excellent performance, like the Tesla S, X and 3, command PREMIUM prices as used cars, and make Merrill prognosticators and surveyors look like the fools they are.

  3. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Tesla S depreciation

    https://forums.tesla.com/node/91490

  4. MJB Says:

    So John, does the estimated 45% thermal efficiency noted for this plasma ignition mean that 45% less heat will be generated by the ignition process?

    On the self parallel parking / un-parking – Boy-oh-boy, I sure am glad I know how to parallel park. I can do it in my sleep and 90% of the time get it perfect on the first try. Outside of those who are physically challenged, I find it inexcusable that this feature has become a necessity for the general public. Shame, shame, shame.

  5. MJB Says:

    Pretty soon those of us who can do things like parallel park and drive a stick will have the upper hand.

    https://www.sadanduseless.com/stick-shift-jeep/

  6. Brett Cammack Says:

    Hearing about the plasma ignition reminded of the state of sublime level of technological sophistication the steam locomotive achieved in the brief time just before it was wiped off the map b diesel electric locomotives.

    4
    I had the occasion last weekend to parallel park on a busy street for the first time in decades. The rear-view camera is an amazingly useful accessory for that maneuver and I give it 100% of the credit for my acing the job with 0% back and fill.

    I will admit that I have arthritis in my cervical vertebrae (childhood neck injury) that makes it virtually impossible to look back over my shoulder in those sorts of activities. Heck, I can’t even kiss my wife in the passenger seat ’cause I can’t twist my head around that far.

  7. Lambo2015 Says:

    Leary of used EVs as the test drive should include a full battery cycle. How would you know if the used EVs battery had degraded to 80%, 50% or 25% of its expected range? In addition to that the general public, including mechanics know little about EVs so you cant just take it to any old mechanic to have it checked out.

  8. Lambo2015 Says:

    4 Yeah! Wasn’t parallel parking part of ones driving test? Although that system seems to work great the time it takes to get it set up I would already be parked. I could see issues with people sliding into a spot while a driver sat out in traffic screwing around with their automated system. I could also see getting honked at for having the car pull out of a spot and then stop waiting for you to take over. Although that can be very helpful for the directionally challenged I would not pay anything extra for this feature.

  9. Albemarle Says:

    Although I got my license way back in 1965, I have always been really bad a parallel parking. Just don’t care. Living in Montreal, if you pulled ahead of a spot to back in, the person behind would take the spot. The standard parking technique there is to go in forward, put the right front tire on the sidewalk, keep turning until the tire just falls off the curb, then shut the engine off. You’re done. Oh yes, always drive a company car.

  10. Larry D. Says:

    3 Seriously? ONE anecdotal disgruntled buyer makes a trend??? You will base your decisions on JUST THAT?

    Why are you afraid to do a SCIENTIFIC, TOTAL 100% SEARCH of ALL Tesla S for sale on Cars.com or other REPUTABLE site?

    WHy demean the level of discussion even more than the fools at Merill Lynch>?

  11. Lex Says:

    I agree with # 1 Kit Gerhart. EV OEM’s need to offer a transferrable 10 year 120K mile warranty on vehicle battery packs. The cost of not only replacing but disposing of the old pack is what is keeping buyers away from pure electrics.

    If OEM’s like Tesla were only leasing out vehicles for 2,3, or 5 years, this might reduce consumer anxiety on whether to choose these vehicles as long as the battery pack is covered under a warranty for the entire period of the lease. Then the vehicle could be recertified / reconditioned into a CPO program.

  12. JWH Says:

    Used EV’s – While I would be leery of purchasing a used BEV, especially with potential cost of new battery pack if required, I am probably not the best to comment on this since I have no plans to purchase a new BEV & will survive with the ICE at this time. I don’t drive banzai across the country (Detroit to Phoenix) as much as years ago, I did make the trip about 18 months ago & prefer 5 minutes to refuel vehicle vs a number of hours to charge batteries.

    #10 – Can you ever state anything politely – I believe that in addition to being angry most of the time, you are a poster child for narcissism. Have a good weekend.

  13. Dale Leonard Says:

    I have park assist in my 1994 Ford Ranger. It’s called using your skills learned when I was 16 and two side view mirrors.We’re turning into a really lazy society. I once worked as a Professional Chauffeur for a Limousine Service and could parallel park a “Super Stretch Limousine” better then my Ranger. I blame a lot on the new parking changes when taking drivers tests as they switched to a slalom type parking test instead of the old system. Again people are just plain spoiled and lazy now.

  14. Lambo2015 Says:

    13 I suppose if everything goes autonomous these skills will become irrelevant. Kind of like when I was in school and we were told we couldn’t use calculators in math class cause you might not always have access to a calculator. Guess the smart phone ruined that idea. So after the nuclear apocalypse the ones that still know how to manually drive a vehicle and do math long hand have a better chance of survival? :-)

  15. XA351GT Says:

    Lesson learned today , Don’t anything negative about EVs especially tesla or face the wrath of Elon err I mean Larry D LOL. Just having a little fun so don’t get your knickers in a twist. Have a great weekend everyone.

  16. Kit Gerhart Says:

    10 I did not claim that link to ba a statistical analysis of Tesla depreciation. It happened to be the first hit that came up when I googled “tesla s depreciation,” before meeting some friends for lunch. You need some lithium pills, or something.

  17. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I had to parallel park for my driving test in 1962, and occasionally parallel park now. The place I parallel park most often now, the curbs are only about 2 inches high, and I often use the technique described by Albemarle in #9. With traffic going 40-45 mph, and not wanting to slow down, it is much safer than parallel parking the regular way.

  18. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The idea of plasma ignition increasing efficiency 10% sounds like a whole lot of BS to me. With spark plugs, essentially all of the fuel charged is burned, so where is that extra energy going to come from, to gain 10%, just by using something different to light the fuel charge? If it ignites the fuel charge all at once, does it somehow allow you to run 15:1 compression with a gasoline engine? That could give some efficiency improvement, but how would it reduce NOx?

  19. Lambo2015 Says:

    18 I was kinda thinking the same thing as that looked a bit gimmicky. Kind of like the split fire or dual spark plugs that didn’t do anything they claimed cause electricity still arcs to the point of least resistance so dual tips or not you get a single arc. So as with this plasma arc where does any improvement come from as the gases are already being ignited.

  20. ChuckGrenci Says:

    I’m guessing here but the plasma ignition could ignite the mixture in a more simultaneous (instant) way, as opposed to spark plugs that create flame fronts, which could cause uneven heating in the cylinder and produce slightly less efficiency and higher NOx. These could theoretically be reduced with plasma ignition. Just thinking out loud with this one. Though another problem might be reliability; it would have to be virtually bulletproof because if not there won’t be a lot of help out there for repair.

  21. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Here’s another article about plasma ignition, from 2011. It also claims a 10% reduction in fuel consumption.

    https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1066982_forget-spark-plugs-plasma-based-ignition-makes-engines-more-efficient

  22. Kit Gerhart Says:

    …and more

    https://www.goauto.com.au/news/general-news/parts/bright-sparks-ignite-new-plug-innovation/2011-10-06/21302.html

    Why aren’t we seeing this yet in production engines?

  23. ChuckGrenci Says:

    Interesting links though neither mentioned cost or complexity. They mentioned space in a slightly negative way and mentioned robustness vaguely as well. If these ‘plugs’ were for the lifetime of the vehicle then perhaps that could offset some of the nebulous areas of concern. And unless you own your vehicles for extended times, even sparkplugs last (a lot of times) for the life of the vehicle.

  24. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Yep, the plasma thing might be really expensive. Also, it’s “as much as” 10% reduction in fuel usage. Does that mean typically 2%, or similar? Since they have been talking about this for 8 years, and still nothing, spark plugs may be around for a while.

  25. Larry D. Says:

    https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?dealerType=all&mdId=21655&mkId=28263&page=1&perPage=20&prMx=35000&searchSource=SORT&sort=price-lowest&stkTypId=28881&zc=48105

    Unlike Merill Lynch’s inexcusably lame so-called research claiming buyers are “leery” of this and that, I went and did a THOROUGH search on cars.com, asking for Model Ss under $35,000, and ranked them from lowest price to highest, above

    As you can see, even a WRECKED Tesla S commands at least $25,000!!!!

    These $30,000-$35,000 “Bargains” are 2012 and 2013s. I can get AWESOME Merc S classes, in MINT condition, with 100% clear CARFAX records, from these years, S 550 V8 no less, 4matics too, for HALF that price!!!

    Take that, Merril Lynch VOO DOO artists.

  26. Larry D. Says:

    25 The search was for Tesla Ss under $35k IN ALL of the USA. For those who did not see the link, it has 162 results, the lowest prices of which is a WRECKED S for $25,500.

    Just in case even ONE person here does not reach any conclusion from the above:

    It does not provide just an excample, but COMPREHENSIVE PROOF that, 100% REFUTING the Merril-Lynch voo doo so called research, Proof that ACTUALLY, Buyers pay TWICE for an EV that has what they need, than a vastly more luxurious, six-figure when new, Mercedes S class of the SAME year and miles, with 4 wheel drive among dozens of useful options, or without, if you prefer RWD.

  27. Larry D. Says:

    https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?dealerType=all&mdId=21655&mkId=28263&page=1&perPage=20&searchSource=SORT&sort=price-highest&stkTypId=28881&zc=48105

    25, 26 These 162 Tesla S under 35,000 are barely 10% of the 1,391 Tesla S used regardless of price on sale, given in the above link, which go for as much as $120,000 (USED!)

  28. Larry D. Says:

    “…The NY Times did a hatchet job on EVs. They wrote a story about a Bolt driving a 540 round trip, LA/Vegas, in a BOLT.”

    Why would you ever write a story about BOLT, when Tesla 3 outsells it at least 10:1, and A LR Model 3 would make the whole round trip in one charge…

    article:

    “L.A. to Vegas and Back by Electric Car: 8 Hours Driving; 5 More Plugged In ”

    I wonder WHY the “Green”, “LEFTIE” NY TIMES would do this? Was its journalist just plain STUPID and uninformed, OR was it, as they say above, a HATCHET Job on EVs?

  29. Larry D. Says:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/22/business/energy-environment/electric-cars-charging.html

  30. Kit Gerhart Says:

    28,29 Did you even read the article you linked? It actually had a lot of information about the realities of having an electric car, if you live in an urban area, or in an apartment or condo anywhere. It also told about the non-standard nature of charging plugs, etc.

    As far as using a Bolt, the experience would apply to any non-Tesla EV. Well, it would be much worse with the ones with less range than a Bolt, like Leaf, or non-REX i3. BTW, the NYT has had multiple articles about Tesla cars, some mostly positive, but some not. Of course, the most publicized article was about their less than stellar experience with a Model S on a road trip from D.C. to Boston. That was when “superchargers” were first installed along I-95. There would now be more chargers, so it would be better.

  31. Larry D. Says:

    OF COURSE I read the STUPID article. Stupid as compared to having an elephant dance classical ballet. They CHOSE the wrong EV, the STUPID Bolt, and they PUT IT in the STUPIDEST Quest, the LA-VEgas run, which is way beyond its abilities, and in addition is a very busy route, where every sick gambling addict and his mother in law stretch the supercharging system. I learned LITTLE NEW from the STUPID article, and I agree with the OTHER person who posted the article and his comments in the World TEsla drivers Facebook forum, of which I am a member (mostly observer). IF you are REALLY Interested in learning about the REAL problems of owning an EV, you can learn MUCH MORE there than in this STUPID setup.

    The 100% confirmed idiots (unless somebody paid them handsomely for this HATCHET Job) fully deserve their fate, wasting 8 hours driving and 5 hours charging for a trip that any 300 Mile Range TESLA EV would do NONSTOP and charge while having ‘fun’ in that awful place, VEGAS.

  32. Larry D. Says:

    30 PS Did YOU see the 10000% MORE valable Facts that it took me just seconds to find on cars.com, namely the 1,400 Tesla S for sale in All of the USA and the only 162 of them that are below 35,000 (and ALL of them above 25.500, even if WRECKED? Do you then agree with me that the Merill Lynch shoddy so called research, alleging buyers are ‘leery’ of EVs, has NO connection to the KING of EVs, Tesla, but at best only with the losers who, together, sell 1/10 what Tesla sells?

  33. Larry D. Says:

    In today’s sunday paper in the old country, I saw yet another example of an overpriced, unattractive EV just like the Tesla rival wannabes in the US.

    After OPEL lost GM 20 BILLION, FINALLY GM wised up and sold this white elephant (better: REd (ink) Elephant) to French PSA, which foolishly sells a poor EV based on the tiny Opel CORSA (A yaris sized subcompact; the opel ASTRA is a civic sized car sold here as a Saturn).

    The CORSA – E sells for 30,000 Euros ( OK, 29,900 Euros, which is STILL over $ 35,000 US), has only a 50 kw battery, and a laughably puny 100 kw motor, and no performance worth talking about.

    OBVIOUSLY this ridiculously overpriced subcompact has even less chance in the US than the stupid and failed Bolt. it is purely for very limited Euro consumption, and I bet it will cost PSA another billion or so in losses.

    Whether you admit it or not.

  34. Larry D. Says:

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/teslaworldwide/?fref=nf

    here is where I found the STUPID NYT article.

    Where you can find FAR more informative discussions.

    Such as the person who asked about Tesla S with their original battery and got many replies from people who actually sold their 2014 Ss with the original battery and more than 140,000 or 150,000 miles on them.

  35. Kit Gerhart Says:

    31 I didn’t learn much new from the article either, but the article wasn’t written for “car people” like us. Many people would learn quite a lot from the article, including that an EV is not a good “do everything” car for a lot of people.

    Yes, I looked at the cars.com stuff, and also looked up S-Classes for 2013-2014 model years. The 2014 non-AMG Ss with low miles were mostly in the $40Ks, not hugely different from from Tesla S prices.

  36. Kit Gerhart Says:

    33. 100 kw is not “puny” power for a car the size of the Corsa. The Corsa E does 0-100 kmh in 8 seconds, significantly quicker than most gas and diesel versions of similar cars. Yeah, it’s pricey, but that includes the 15-19% vat. The pricing of VW’s onslaught of EVs will probably best determine what “overpriced” means regarding mass market EVs.

  37. Lambo2015 Says:

    I’m not sure if Larry is unstable or just that passionate about EVs. But the reality is not every article written is going to praise the accomplishments of Tesla or EVs for that matter. Part of good journalism is to provide opposing views and your gonna find articles that are gears toward all the downsides to EVs and yes can be skewed by not using the most capable EV on the market. However, then you’ll find ones that promote only the merits of EVs and glass over the downsides. No different than research articles. They can be written to promote a set agenda where studies are conducted to get the results they want. So be informed and consider the source and move on. Cant get all bent out of shape over one article. Larry you are probably more informed about EVs than the journalist who wrote that article. He was probably told to do a piece on using a non-Tesla EV to make that trip knowing what the results would be. Could be for the sole purpose of discrediting EVs or that many folks will write in a point out the results would have been different using a Tesla. Sometimes fluff articles are written to garner a response and then the true message comes out with the follow-up article. Either way nothing to get all defensive about.

  38. Larry D. Says:

    37 Oh please. I own no EVs, no Hybrids, but two diesels. I am no EV cheerleader like Bob Wilson, who has taken tens of thou of $ hit in both buying EVs AND Tesla shares (of which I also own NONE). or a serial hybrid buyer like Kit G. But I really protest at the utter unfairness of the garbage the NYT put out in their anecdotal example. Is this REALLY how one should use his EV? Really? They knowingly violated their own guidelines, which made the LA-LV trip for the Bolt a VERY silly idea.

  39. Larry D. Says:

    38 IF GM had not already cancelled the Volt and really given up on the Bolt, and they had an ounce of brains, they should have raised hell about the misuse and abuse of their Bolt in the NYT “typical” EV road trip. They set it up to fail, KNOWINGLY.

    Musk does not need to do a damn thing, he can actually say “See? If this was one of my Teslas with their 300 Mi Range, none of this horror story and the waste of FIVE hours would have happened.

  40. Kit Gerhart Says:

    37 That particular trip might not have been all fun and games, even with a Tesla. A Model 3 long range has an EPA range of 310 miles, enough to make the trip one way, barely, as long as you didn’t go too fast, etc. To be safe, you’d want to charge once on the way. The standard range plus Model 3 has 240 mile EPA range, so you’d definitely need to charge along the way. There are two supercharger locations along the route, close enough to the middle of the route that a nearly full charge at either one should get you to the destination. On this busy route, though, mightn’t there be a queue at the chargers? It seems possible.

    Then, after you get to Vegas, is there a supercharger conveniently located near your hotel, or wherever you are going? Also, these chargers might be very busy too.

    I don’t go to Vegas from LA, but if I did, and wanted to drive, a, say, Camry hybrid would be much more convenient. Leave LA with a full tank of gas, and then get gas 2/3 of the way back on the return trip, and you are set for ~400 miles of driving after you get back to LA.

    No, I don’t dislike electric cars, but there are things, like most “road trips,” where they don’t work that well at this point.

  41. Lambo2015 Says:

    40 I have driven from LA to Vegas and from LA to Dallas and it can be stressful even with an ICE vehicle. We drove over 2.5 hours without seeing another vehicle let alone a gas station. So being out West in parts of Nevada or New Mexico where cell service can be sporadic at best. Trying to locate a charging station and being that far from anything would garner some anxiety no matter what EV I was driving.
    The nice thing about Gas vehicles is a service vehicle or sometimes a cop can bring you a couple gallons of gas. They cant charge you up along side the road. Although I wonder if any tow truck or service vehicles have included a generator with the proper connections to charge a EV on location? Probably would cost as much as a tow though for them to sit and charge you up.

  42. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Here are the two Tesla charge stations between LA and LV.

    https://www.tesla.com/trips#/?v=MX_2017_75D&o=Los%20Angeles,%20CA,%20USA_Los%20Angeles%20Los%20Angeles%20County%20CA@34.0522342,-118.2436849&s=&d=Las%20Vegas,%20NV,%20USA_Las%20Vegas%20Clark%20County%20NV@36.1699412,-115.13982959999998

  43. Alex Carazan Says:

    In USA pure battery electric vehicle sales are only 1.6% of the market despite BEV’s being available for sale now for many years.

    SOME ISSUES – 100% BEV’S:
    1) High cost – more expensive than ICE vehicle of similar size
    2) Low range (not practical for long family trips)
    3) Long “refill” time (not practical for long family trips)
    4) Little charging infrastructure on roads, highways, and interstate
    5) Many consumers do not own a garage where they can plug in to charge
    6) Limited segment reach (usually compact segment or high end luxury/sport)
    7) Fast chargers are expensive
    8) Little value add compared to ICE vehicle
    9) Battery fires! (more as of late)
    10) Electricity still often generated using “dirty” coal (EV’s are NOT zero emissions)
    11) Rare earth minerals used (often with human rights issues with low cost labor)
    12) CO2 emissions generated in mining rare earth metals

    SOME ADVANTAGES – 100% BEV’S:
    1) Quiet (less noise)
    2) Save on fuel costs (no gasoline expense)
    3) 100% torque at 0 speed (potential for high acceleration)
    4) Less brake wear (long brake life, lower maintenance)
    5) Less things to break down compared to ICE vehicle (increase in reliability and life)
    6) Pre-conditioning in closed garage (can pre-heat or pre-cool interior before getting in vehicle)
    7) Potential for back-up electricity usage for home in power outage
    8) Lower emissions – perceived better for environment
    9) Charge at home in garage is more convenient at night then visiting gas station

    Until the issues are addressed and the advantages are better marketed to consumers we can expect BEV’s to remain low niche market.