AD #2699 – Ford Shows Off SEMA Models, GM Faces Market Share Loss After Strike, Renault Cuts Profit Outlook

October 18th, 2019 at 11:47am

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Runtime: 5:42

0:07 UAW Members to Vote on GM Deal
0:45 GM Faces Market Share Loss After Strike
1:45 Tesla Model 3 Gets Small Range Boost
2:14 Renault Cuts Profit Outlook
2:48 Ford Shows Off SEMA Models
4:09 Subaru Japan Plant Idled Due to Typhoon
4:41 CATL Begins Battery Factory in Germany

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69 Comments to “AD #2699 – Ford Shows Off SEMA Models, GM Faces Market Share Loss After Strike, Renault Cuts Profit Outlook”

  1. XA351GT Says:

    WOW!! $500 for a extra 10 miles of range , what a bargain.

  2. Larry D. Says:

    Re the UAW settlement, if I were GM I would insist on some clauses that would encourage the workers to substantially improve their health and fitness, aiming to save billions in health costs down the road.

    An ounce of prevention is a TON, not a pound, of cure, in today’s INSANE hospitalization costs USA.

    AND they urgently need some serious nutrition and fitness counseling, not to mention morning exercises. Whenever I see a UAW picket line, it is full of morbidly obese younger and older men and women. And I am sure it gets worse, with alcohol and drug and smoking addictions for many of the rank and file.

    This is a US-wide problem, but it seems far worse in the UAW than in my own work environment, where there is rarely one out of 100 faculty who is obese (but several more in the secretarial and maintenance staff).

    I do my own shopping every Saturday and I am appalled at the nutritional illiteracy of most buyers in front of me. Some are clearly trying to eat healthy, probably on the advise of their MD, but even those pick a few healthy items and others I am sure they think are healthy, when in reality they are not at all.

  3. Larry D. Says:

    PS Sean, congrats on a Geely-Volvo-free show for the first in several days! Keep it up! And on Monday, I hope you will show some clips from the Bob LUtz show for those (unlike me) that missed it, especially his response to John’s questions about BEVs and Tesla.

  4. ChuckGrenci Says:

    Anyone interested in the C8R, here’s a YouTube from Road Atlanta with some nice sounds and some track time for the 5.5 liter flat plane double overhead cam engine.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au9RmIss74A

  5. Lambo2015 Says:

    Tesla model 3 gets a boost in range but what I’m really surprised is that they have not developed a revised model S. 4 years is typically the extent of a design without at least a new grill or fascia. Granted the Tesla’s don’t have grills but a refresh should be coming.
    The Ford SEMA models looked to be nothing more than some pin stripping new wheels and accessories. Oh and as you said lowered or raised. Seems like modifications that anyone could make and not really SEMA level.

  6. Lambo2015 Says:

    I don’t really understand manufacturers adjusting their forecasts for next year based on slowing sales. Seems like that should be inventory or basically demand driven. Some models will see declines and some like corvette and model 3 will certainly see an increase.
    I guess if its just to serve the purpose of letting everyone (mainly shareholders) know they expect a drop in overall new cars sales fine, but their releases are still modified weekly based on demand.

  7. Carl Says:

    UAW workers are vastly overpaid. Many of the jobs are no skilled labor, attach part ‘A’ to part ‘B’. The outrageous wages are why vehicles are so expensive.

  8. Joe Pastor Says:

    I watched Acura’s Ikeda on ATW, and I’m still confused about where they are going. Lots of flowery talk about performance, but no specifics. And no talk about quality and reliability,which really bothers this TL owner. Hopefully, the upcoming TLX will allay all my
    fears.

  9. Kit Gerhart Says:

    8 Some neighbors have an MDX, I think about 2006. It has had electrical, suspension, and HVAC motor problems, and is kind of noisy, but they still seem to like it. I think they plan to get a new vehicle fairly soon, another CUV, but maybe a little smaller. It will be interesting to see what they end up with. Unlike with the kind of cars I buy, there is a lot to choose from in small-mid size crossovers. There are two drivers, and they want memory seats, which might rule out a lot of the mass market models. That’s one think that probably still helps sell “premium” brands.

  10. GM Veteran Says:

    I would love to have a job where I get paid $11,000 to sign a four year contract that guarantees wage increases each year and provides huge profit sharing checks, (with no provision for loss-sharing checks back to the company when business is not so good).

    I have zero sympathy for the UAW workers, other than to feel sorry for them that they are so gullible and actually buy into the rhetoric crap that their leaders spew. In fact, their leaders have done such a good job brainwashing the workforce that they now think they didn’t get a good enough deal. Wow!

  11. Larry D. Says:

    5 There will be no major redesign of the Model S. Not all models have 4 year design cycles, those are for low-price high volume ones like Acccords and Camrys. 7 series and S class designs last for 7 years, sometimes more than 10 like the 1979-1991 S class, and the ROlls ROyce Phantom lasted from 2003 model year to 2018.

    For Tesla it is very easy and far less expensive to update all existing models over the air, software changes that sometimes make big improvements.

  12. Larry D. Says:

    8 You are damn right. Acura started off great in the mid-80s but fizzled and nosedived afterward, and there is NOTHING in the horizon that would make me invest in it, if it was a self-standing company. Much less buy its LAME products (all pimped-up Hondas at much higher prices). Pitiful.

  13. Larry D. Says:

    9 as we discussed many times, EVERYBODY likes the cars they have bought even if they are complete lemons. They chose them and they don’t want to look stupid if they admit they made a bad choice.

    It is far more interesting if you could find an owner, (other than yourself !) who publicly admitted they did not like the car they paid an arm and a leg for.

  14. Larry D. Says:

    10. 100% absolutely agree with your points.

  15. Kit Gerhart Says:

    13 Yeah, true. Also, these people bought the MDX used at a pretty good price, so that might have lowered their expectations.

  16. Wim van Acker Says:

    @7: labor cost amount to 10-15% of vehicle cost, so any higher-than-average labor cost have a minor impact on vehicle cost.

  17. Larry D. Says:

    16 Not GM labor cost!

  18. GM Veteran Says:

    I agree, its been 7 years of the same design for the Model S, other than the change to delete the ugly black grill. It is getting long in the tooth and they should have something that looks new for their well-heeled buyers to yearn for.

    A higher priority though should be to totally redesign the Model X. The current bloated look looks like an inflated Model S sedan. Nothing about it looks like an SUV and it doesn’t have some of the characteristics that an SUV buyer would look for. So, its just another grocery getter with awkward rear doors and strange styling to separate it from the other high-priced crossovers from other automakers.

    Based on the X, I am not expecting much when the production Y is revealed, or the pickup truck. Tesla’s strength seems to be in sedans.

  19. Kit Gerhart Says:

    16 Some brands probably spend more on advertising, than on labor.

  20. Lambo2015 Says:

    7 Carl, actually the UAW workers pay has some mis-leading numbers floating around. What they actually make and what is applied as labor costs is vastly different. I know back in 08 a union GM employee was actually getting less than non-union Toyota pure hourly rate. 29 something vs $30 but when you add in benefits and the cost of carrying the many retirees that GM has, while Toyota has very few (in the US) the rate jumped from within a dollar to $48 vs $69.

    Also all vehicles are competitively priced against each other so union cars compete against non-union built cars and so I would argue that’s not why they are so expensive. The labor is typically @60 hours and the difference from the Toyota number and GM being 21 dollars times 60 hours still only accounts for a difference of $1260.

    You can attribute 48 to 50% of the cost to build a car on material and when you figure in the things a new car has compared to older models like multiple airbags, Stainless steel exhaust, power everything that is standard now along with automatic transmissions, Tons more electronics better materials and processes like coatings that prevent rust unlike the old Vega’s. Plus meeting new safety regulations with crumple zones, side impacts and fuel shutoffs. Most paint shops have switched to water based paints over solvent. All these things add cost well beyond just the increase in labor.
    In 1975 the average car cost $3800 with a cost of living increase a car today should only be about $17,000. However UAW hourly rate was like $8 and with that same cost of living increase pay should be $35 which is inline with what they make minus the benefits and cost of retirees. So really you can blame the crazy cost of healthcare for the huge wage disparity.
    Sorry I know that got very long.

  21. Larry D. Says:

    18 there is no resemblance between the VERY ELEGANT X and the excellent S. On the contrary,it is the model Y crossover that looks like a smaller X, and also like a raised Model 3. The Model S is GORGEOUS. MErcedes would WISH it had the resale value of the Model S in its Excellent S class! If it ain’t BROKE, do NOT fix it. Flagship cars are NOT changed every 4 years anyway. TOo stupid and wasteful to do so.

  22. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The 10 miles of extra range for the Tesla 3 is probably a software change, using more of the charge cycle at the top and/or bottom. They also lowered the “ordering” fee from $1000 refundable, to $100 non-refundable.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/17/tesla-adds-100-non-refundable-order-fee.html

  23. John McElroy Says:

    #7. UAW workers account for 5-8% of the cost of a vehicle. Even if you cut their wages in half, the average car price would only go down by about $1,500. The vast majority of UAW workers do a good job and earn their keep.

  24. Lambo2015 Says:

    21 IDK I think freshening it up could revitalize interest in the Model S and prompt making some used ones available. Especially for those people that bought them to be one of the first to own a Tesla. Right now their Model S is 7 years old looks basically identical to a brand new one. With an update those same people will go buy the newer looking one so everyone knows its the New model S. It becomes not just important to be driving a Tesla but a new Tesla.

  25. GM Veteran Says:

    Thanks Lambo, that was exactly my point on the Model S. Who wants to spend that kind of money on a car that looks like its 5 years old?

    I was told ten years ago that steel became the second most expensive item in building new GM vehicles. Health care had surpassed it that year. I believe that included the healthcare expense for all GM workers, white and blue collar. Still, it underscores how expensive that has become. And it isn’t getting better with this new contract!

  26. Kit Gerhart Says:

    24 I think the Model S still looks great, but I’m not very familiar with the interior. Of what I do know, maybe the should offer a more elegant, but less “techy” version, without the 18 inch tablet.

  27. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Maybe something a little like this.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/WYMJMLP4ymHdVTCP8

  28. Bob Wilson Says:

    #1, #5, #11, #18 (Et al.) – Aerodynamics don’t change year-to-year. The next Model S is called “Plaid” with minor external clues. The important changes are three motors and improved battery performance where the rubber meets the road as seen by the rapidly disappearing tail lights.

    As for my SR+ Model 3: it is 7 months old; 14,686 miles; $41,000 included $3,000 for Autopilot (now included), and; $3,750 tax credit on 2019 taxes. Ten days ago, it measured 234 of 240 mi range, a 6 miles loss (-2.5%) which is well within my expectations.

    With the latest software, 2019.32.12.2 loaded a day ago, I will be taking the 1,000 km (625 mi) challenge which includes charging time.

  29. Kit Gerhart Says:

    28 If I held the speed to 65-70, I could make your 1000 km trip in my Camry hybrid without stopping. No, I wouldn’t want to do that.

  30. ChuckGrenci Says:

    I saw a follow-up on the Livewire (Harley) about the charging problem. H/D asked owners to not charge at home due to a problem, but after extensive research, found that the problem was with only the one Livewire that was having problems. Restrictions have been lifted. Link if anyone is interested: https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2019/10/18/20921200/harley-davidson-livewire-charging-restart-production-deliveries

  31. Kit Gerhart Says:

    30 I want to take a test ride on a LiveWire when available, to see if it seems worth twice as much as the Zero I rode a few months ago.

  32. Bob Wilson Says:

    #29 – We traded-in our 2017 Prius Prime, 640 mi range, for the Tesla Model 3, 240 mi range. At 63 mph, the Prius Prime would easily cover 625 mi (1000 km) but the challenge is whether or not a Tesla Model 3 can meet or exceed the same capability as our former Prius Prime. Are equal to or better off?

    My math model says yes, the SR+ Model 3 can match the Prius Prime at 63 mph over the same distance. Other benchmarks indicate the cost per mile is substantially less than the Prius Prime. But testing, the ’1000 km challenge’ answers the question.

    The web link video at 26:30 shows Bjørn Nyland’s current table.

  33. Larry D. Says:

    1000 km is a mere 600 miles. most of my previous cars had ranges of 500-600+ miles, and they sure were not hybrids, and I sure did not go 65-70 on long trips. But still it was a pain to not be able to go from here to any major East Coast city on one tank (Wash DC is 530 miles away, so is baltimore, Phila is 550, NY is 600 and Boston is 700+.

    Now I can easily do any of them with the 780 mile range 3 lt Diesel and on top of that I have excellent ride, luxury, safety, and 400 lbft torque that transforms the car into a “Saturn V rocket” (not my words, but those of the automag tests). And if I bought this car for the US, I woulda bought the S 350 Bluetec instead, with more power and torque from same engine, and maybe a little shorter (but still humongous) range.

  34. ChuckGrenci Says:

    31, I wouldn’t mind giving the Livewire a try, and even though it could work for me as far as range and use go, and also within my budget, I’m frugal enough (some say cheap) that I see no value to be had in owning one. I certainly can’t see it twice better than the Zero.

  35. Kit Gerhart Says:

    32 I haven’t watched the entire video, but it is interesting. In what I’ve seen, he’s mentioned the affect of temperature because of higher air density at lower temperature, but I didn’t hear him mention cabin heat or A/C. I’m assuming he doesn’t use either, but I’ll watch more later and find out. It appears that in Norway, you can use any EV for highway trips, but in many, or most places in the US, you’d have a hard time finding chargers for anything but a Tesla.

  36. Kit Gerhart Says:

    33 Some of my earlier cars had a range of under 300 miles, like a 1966 Dodge Coronet with a 15-16 gallon tank, that got only about 15 mpg on the highway.

    Your Benz diesels have the same size fuel tank as the much thirstier versions, so you get very good range.

    https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=23930&id=23269&id=38936&id=38880

    My Camry hybrid has a smaller, 13 gallon tank, than non-hybrid versions of the same car, which have 16. I’ve wondered if they have to do that for some packaging reason, or if they do it for some other reason. The battery, itself, is under the back seat in the hybrid, so shouldn’t keep them from using the 16 gallon tank.

  37. Kit Gerhart Says:

    34 I’d consider a Zero for use in Indiana, if I didn’t already have two, rather dis-similar bikes to keep me entertained. Like you, I’m a little “cheap” with some things, but throw away too much money on new cars, some of which I don’t keep nearly as long as I should. With bikes, I usually buy them used, and often keep them a long time.

  38. Larry D. Says:

    36 My 1009 Accord coupe was rated 31 hwy and had a 17 gallon tank, so a theoretical 600+ HWY range, but I never got that much, and once I barely ran out of fuel and had to stop the car, shaked it a bit and I was able to continue the few miles home. Later the EPA lowered that HWY MPG twice, I believe, since 1990. The 740iL was a theoretical 24 HWY and I got 23 or so at much higher speeds than the EPA’s, and also had about 500-550 miles range.

  39. Larry D. Says:

    38 oops 31*17 gives me only 527, no wonder. I think I got the over 600 by multiplying the best I got on long trips (35-36) by the tank size, 37*17 does give 629, but that 37 was at modest (average) speeds due to long construction segments, single lane 45-55 mph, and 1-2 psi overinflated tires.

  40. Larry D. Says:

    36 smaller gas tanks on hybrids because less fuel is needed to 500 mile range, also space to put battery, and lower cost of smaller tank.

    39 in the above, to get 37 MPG, I would leave the car in 5th (top) gear on the highway as I cruised from even low 40s to high 80s. It did not mind.

  41. Larry D. Says:

    https://www.iea.org/publications/reports/globalevoutlook2019/

    I was looking for 2019 EV sales data for Europe and forecasts, and came across this global EV report by the Intl Energy Agency, based on 2018 data.

    “Electric mobility continues to grow rapidly. In 2018, the global electric car fleet exceeded 5.1 million, up 2 million from the previous year..

    China remained the world’s largest electric car market, followed by Europe and the United States. Norway was the global leader in terms of electric car market share (46%).

    The global stock of electric two-wheelers was 260 million by the end of 2018 and there were 460 000 electric buses.

    In freight transport, electric vehicles (EVs) were mostly deployed as light-commercial vehicles (LCVs), which reached 250 000 units in 2018, while medium electric truck sales were in the range of 1 000-2 000 in 2018.

    The global EV stock in 2018 was served by 5.2 million light-duty vehicle (LDV) chargers, (540 000 of which are publicly accessible), complemented by 157 000 fast chargers for buses.

    EVs on the road in 2018 consumed about 58 terawatt-hours (TWh) of electricity (largely attributable to two/wheelers in China) and emitted 41 million tonnes of carbon-dioxide equivalent (Mt CO2-eq), while saving 36 Mt CO2-eq compared to an equivalent internal combustion engine (ICE) fleet.”

  42. Kit Gerhart Says:

    39 I suspect your diesels will easily beat the EPA ratings, if driven “moderately.” At least my VW 1.9 TDI did.

  43. Larry D. Says:

    41 Unbelievable!! 260 million Electric 2-wheelers???? The number seems humongous. I wonder how many are in China and any in India.

  44. Kit Gerhart Says:

    41 Wow, 260 million electric two wheelers. It looks electric scooters have replaced all of those 2-stroke mopeds I saw in Shanghai 20 years ago.

  45. Kit Gerhart Says:

    43,44 I suspect most of them are in Asia, and are low speed, 20-25 mph, and look like small Vespas. A lot of them may have lead acid batteries. They wouldn’t need much range for typical use, if they can be charged once a day, either at home, or a commuting destination.

  46. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Here’s a little about electric two wheelers sold in India.

    https://www.indiatimes.com/technology/news/top-electric-scooters-launching-in-2019-that-you-should-save-money-to-buy-359602.html

  47. Kit Gerhart Says:

    For Tesla lovers, or haters.

    https://electrek.co/2019/10/19/tesla-model-y-red-prototype-spotted-gigafactory-1/

  48. Larry D. Says:

    46 I checked – Currently it’s 71 rupees to the $$ so these are about $500 US, similar to prices in CHina back in 2006, when the US $ was worth much more than in 2019. Quite affordable to the Indian middle and lower middle class.

  49. Kit Gerhart Says:

    A lot of Indian cities must have really slow traffic, as a number of the scooters have a top speed of only 25 km/h, 15-16 mph.

  50. Larry D. Says:

    49 things may have improved somewhat since the 1980s, but a colleague of mine who visited India then, came back and told me about a recently built modern highway, where traffic moved at 5 MPG, cars, bikes, pedestrians and skinny cows all on the two-lane divided highway, and on the side he saw a billboard touting the recently constructed road as having a…”benefit/cost ratio of 2.9″!!!! (as if it was used as intended, assuming their calcs were anywhere near the truth)

  51. Larry D. Says:

    5 MPH.

    I can’t imagine how much worse pollution in China’s biggest cities would be if they did NOT have those 260 million EV scooters (or a large portion thereof).

  52. Kit Gerhart Says:

    51 It was pretty bad 25 years ago in Shanghai, when there were a few million 2 stroke mopeds and scooters.

  53. Stephen Says:

    In 5 years China replaced 90% of its commuter buses, from diesel to EV. About 400,000.
    I wonder why Harley does not offer a shared ownership scheme for their Livewire. It might be of more interest to cash strapped millenials who love tesla and buy-use E-Scotters.
    Accura does not exist in Europe and yet VW shows that a premium brand (Audi) is a nice money maker. Note the Infiniti brand is also dead in Europe as well. Only Lexus has worked as a premium Asian Brand and its the oldest. Japanese car nuts may pimp cars to make them sporty but Japan car inc never really understood performance cars bar the odd serious supercar challenger (NSX/GT86/LFA/GTR). Where is their M5/AMG/BMW Motorsport/Audi RS efforts. Another S-Class competitor is not what the world needs. Tesla did it with electricity

  54. Kit Gerhart Says:

    53 Acura was the first of the Japanese “premium” brands, at least in the US, but Lexus did it right, for the time, with the LS as its first product. That good start still serves them well, even though the vehicle market has changed completely.

  55. Larry D. Says:

    53 54 Acura was sure the first by almost 5 years, and its first offerings were very successful, especially the Legend 5 sp coupe with the 6, a friend had a green and tan one in CA and did 300,000 miles with it.

    Lexus did much better by undercutting prices of its rivals initially by almost 50%, AND cunningly naming itself with a misspelled version of “Luxus”, and they were so well made, the misspelled word meant “Luxury” later.

    Our Janitor, an African American single mom, has named her daughter “Lexus”. No kidding. Ironic, because Mercedes WAS named after the daughter of a Spanish ambassador or whatever.

  56. Kit Gerhart Says:

    55 A friend bought a Legend sedan in 1988 or so. It surprised me that he would buy a car like that, a gussied up front drive Honda, given a couple other cars he had, a Ferrari Testarossa and a “beater” Ferrari that he bought with damage, to fix up and drive when he wouldn’t want to drive the new Testarossa.

    He has sold both Ferraris, and the last I knew, had a Prius and a Chrysler van, and probably another mass market car or two.

  57. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Actually, the Acura Legend was kind of a last hurrah for Rover, before BMW bought it, re-invented Mini, and shut down the rest of it. The Rover version was called Sterling in the US. I think it used Honda powertrain, like the Acura version.

  58. Larry D. Says:

    57 Richard Truett, who is supposed to be the gearhead over at Autonews, (he also appeared here in a recent AAH) told me he bought an old Sterling as a collectible. Go figure.

  59. Lambo2015 Says:

    28&32 Bob actually most models do a design change about every 4 years and many do a mid-model refresh in two years. While some do subtle changes every year. Its those subtle changes in grills or headlights that allow people to know the exact year of a vehicle, just like when AD does their barn finds the exact year usually can be figured out.

    As for your model 3 its sounds like you enjoy it a lot. That’s great, but seriously there is no savings there. Not to mention driving any trip at 63MPH to achieve range sounds like a trip from hell to me. Probably as annoying as those people who try and get on the highway at 40mph to avoid pressing to far on the gas pedal. BTW on your Tesla do you still call it a gas pedal?

  60. Larry D. Says:

    59 on the topic of availability of inexpensive healthy foods, last Sat, assuming my local ALDI store (a German bargain chain) is still being renovated, I drove to their Belville MI store I had visited 2 weeks ago (a 9 mile pleasant highway drive) and was stunned to see that the unbelievably low prices they had back then (fat free milk, fresh, $1.32/gallon!! and eggs $0.58 dozen, large) was exactly the same this time. Other healthy foods were apples at $1.29 for three Lbs (other stores have some apples for more than $2 and $3 for one measly pound), baby cut carrots at $0.79/lb, healthy cereal (wheat squares, no damned sugar, no damned salt) only $1.39/18 oz box, bananas $.44/lb, etc etc.

  61. Kit Gerhart Says:

    58 That Sterling should be pretty rare. They didn’t sell many of them.

    59 Since having a Camry, I’ve paid a little more attention to them, and I’m not sure they change anything with exterior styling during a generation. At least I don’t notice it. On the hand, the current Camaro has had two front end “refreshes,” the second one mainly because the first one was a mistake, and made the car look worse. I think the 2020 front end looks pretty good.

    60 Isn’t ALDI in Germany more like Walmart in the US, with a wide variety of products, rather than mainly food, paper products, etc. as in the US ALDI stores?

  62. Lambo2015 Says:

    60 Larry I think you have too many browsers open or you been taking Ambien. No one was on the topic of availability of healthy foods.

  63. Lambo2015 Says:

    61 Yea I’m not sure the imports make the changes as often or even why the domestics do. Unless, like you mentioned they need to clean up a messed up design. I think they like to make each year look different just enough to know its a different year.
    That certainly seemed to more popular years ago and the refreshes seem to be getting farther apart and less drastic. Now its like they release new wheels or a paint color.
    Anyway I think the S is still a good looking car but also think its due for an update.

  64. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I grew up in the ’50s and ’60s, and at the time, especially 1955 to about 1968 or so, it was very easy to tell most American cars by model year.

  65. Larry D. Says:

    62 100% wrong, and it was YOU that raised the topic, and nobody else, and you can be assured that, unlike most here, I am in perfect health and as a principle I do not take ANY unnecessary pills.

  66. Larry D. Says:

    61 they are much smaller than Walmarts, and much more pleasant to shop, they charge for the bags (as do their LIDL german counterparts in the old country). ALDI is unbeatable in fresh fruits and veggies.

  67. Kit Gerhart Says:

    63 I think a few wheel and paint color changes were about the only visual changes for base C7 Corvettes. If it’s dark green, it’s a 2014.

  68. Larry D. Says:

    61 If the Sterling is a four door, as I believe, it would not make a very good collectible, coupes and cabrios fetch far higher prices. But it is not a “got to have it” vehicle for most people too.

  69. Lambo2015 Says:

    65 I re-read what I posted in 59 which you referred to in 60 and NOPE no topic of food. So I’m not sure what pills your not taking but probably should be but we all know you’re the type of person that would talk about anything just to hear yourself talk. Same goes for your postings.