AD #2705 – Hyundai Autonomous Service, Wozniak No Longer Bullish About AVs, BorgWarner Creates Electric Ariel Nomad

October 28th, 2019 at 11:39am

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Listen to “AD #2705 – Hyundai Autonomous Service, Wozniak No Longer Bullish About AVs, BorgWarner Creates Electric Ariel Nomad” on Spreaker.

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Runtime: 6:22

0:07 UAW Strike Ends with Lost Profits
1:02 Chinese Model 3s Waiting for Ok to Sell
1:28 Daimler To Sell Carbon Neutral Trucks By 2039
2:16 Steve Wozniak No Longer Bullish About Autonomy
2:58 Hyundai Launches Autonomous Ride-Sharing Service
3:36 Denso Shows Off AV Tech in Tokyo
4:11 Toyota Launches Car Sharing Service
5:00 BorgWarner Creates High-Voltage Electric Ariel Nomad

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48 Comments to “AD #2705 – Hyundai Autonomous Service, Wozniak No Longer Bullish About AVs, BorgWarner Creates Electric Ariel Nomad”

  1. Dean Romanski Says:

    The UAW has no intrest in harming GM or any other company but earnings and compensation at the top is lopsided. If GM would bargain in good faith we would not be having this conversation.

  2. Larry D. Says:

    C8 conv

  3. Larry D. Says:

    1 100% excuses. The strike had nothing to do with Mary Barra’s obscene and undeserved salary, but only with the Greed and Selfishness of the CORRUPT and CRIMINAL UAW so-called “leadership”.

    GM did NOT lose $3 bill from the strike, BUT the Suppliers and the Communities were DEVASTATED.

    75,000 layoffs in a rather limited geographical area (s) is HUGE. You need to try to IMAGINE how many people are 75,000, SERIOUSLY. I remember freshman classes I took with 700 (less than 1 thou) people in the amphitheater, and it was itself a HUGE crowd. AND Multiply by 4 to see their FAMILIES and by 100 to see all affected.

    The Strike was a DISGRACE. ALD had an excellent paragraph for it in today’s transcript.

  4. Wim van Acker Says:

    @1, “The UAW has no intrest in harming GM or any other company but earnings and compensation at the top is lopsided.” Question for you: does adjusting GM senior management compensation to whatever level somebody considers “right” justify a $3 billion loss for GM, hundreds of millions of $ loss with supplier and 75,000 employees lose one month salary?

    IHMO this does not make sense at all.

  5. Larry D. Says:

    On AVs, I still do not share John’s optimism. Wozniak’s prediction, ‘not in his lifetime’, if you use the actuarial averages, just means not in 10 years. Big Deal. But STILL, all these AVs that so recklessly and foolishly some states allow to roam the streets and kill pedestrians like that 49 year old woman, are NOT ready for prime time.

    As they say in the old country, and they mean it in a very derogatory way, they are “Fresh Water (Ship) Captains”, as opposed to salt water Oceans. They will never let these high school science projects operate in a heavy snowstorm, with all kinds of traffic that cannot see 2 feet in front of their noses.

  6. Brett Cammack Says:


    So, it’s fine for GM to not give a rat’s behind about their suppliers or their employees financial circumstances, but whoa Nellie, those miserable blue collar pukes are just a scourge on the economy.

    “Won’t somebody think of the corporations??”

  7. Larry D. Says:

    Humpty Dumpty Hackett kills crossovers too:

  8. bradley cross Says:

    Strikes belong in the 1900s when folks were being abused by employers. Thats when unions were needed and did a great service.

    These days there should simply be forced arbitration if an agreement cannot be reached within 3months.
    If the UAW was not so corrupt they would have a little more standing in the world.
    Now will we have more UAW folks on trial?

    Ride/car sharing companies seem to come and go but obviously Toyota can afford to run it as long as they need.

    The Tesla M3 sales in China are likely to be huge and might need to be to pay the Chinese banks/govt back their loan money.

  9. Larry D. Says:

    This Electric MINI with the mutilated grille (inside the oval, what are these silly yellow lines?) could be VERY affordable after handouts. I wonder why they don’t apply to the Model 3.. but it does not need them.

  10. Larry D. Says:

    6 You got it wrong, it is the CORRUPT UAW so-called Leadership, NOT GM, that caused ALL THIS SUFFERING to the Suppliers. IF the UAW did not strike for 40 long days, the suppliers and the 75,000 laid off employees and their families would be JUST FINE.

    The UAW shares a BIG part of what caused the DESTRUCTION of the US Automobile Industry over more than 50 years. I have no respect for the Overpaid CEOs, but they did much less comparatively.

    You should be demanding that the UAW holds ELECTIONS and OUSTS its corrrupt and criminal so-called ‘leaders’.

  11. Larry D. Says:

    8 “Strikes belong in the 1900s when folks were being abused by employers. Thats when unions were needed and did a great service.”

    exactly correct.

    Now the misery of the GM strike will be repeated at Ford and FCA. I wonder how many innocent supplier employees will lose their jobs because of UAW Greed and Selfishness.

  12. Larry D. Says:

    Chinese model 3s with autopilot for $50,000 US will sell like hotcakes. The plant will eventually dwarf even the US plant’s production, at 500,000 units every year. CHina desperately needs millions more EVs and will get them.

    FOr the CHinese market, a car as advanced and with as much to offer as the Model 3 with autopilot at $50k is a BARGAIN. Only low-rent, lower-quality, lesser local BEVs can offer more for less.

  13. Lambo2015 Says:

    Daimler to sell carbon neutral trucks by 2039. Humm? So, a 20 year forecast. Might as well say they will only offer flying trucks by 2049.

    AVs; Also point out that the AVs that are currently operating are mostly in cities with optimal weather conditions. Let me know how those ones in Detroit operate after the first ice storm.

    John; It would be interesting to see exactly the difference in the UAW contract from what was originally offered pre-strike and what was agreed upon 40 days later. Was it really worth it?

  14. Kit Gerhart Says:

    9 BMWs are still eligible for the tax credits, and Tesla is not, because BMW hasn’t sold 200K EVs, even with the i3, but Tesla has sold 200K units.

    The MINI EV won’t have much range, with only a 32 kWh battery, but would have enough for most commutes, with home charging. Yeah, the yellow in the grill looks pretty silly, but should be easy to fix with black paint, or maybe removing some offending parts.

  15. Larry D. Says:

    BTW I saw a Chinese made Buick envision up close in the parking lot as I was walking to the office, silver, very smooth and good external design. Looked like a tall station wagon, really. Did not stop to check out the interior, as I am not interested in any SUV/CUV anyway

    But there are some incredible bargains, the very personal coupe version of the S class, the CL 63 AMG can be found for $18-23k with low miles, 2009-13. These cost $150k or more, much more than the regular and bigger S class models. There was one more level, the S65 at close to $200k new, but there were not any in the search for my price limit.

  16. Eric Says:

    I work for an automotive supplier in North Carolina, and we had to have layoffs because of the GM strike as well. Some of our best people will not be coming back since they had to look for another job elsewhere to survive. I agree more with Larry D. Maybe not so harsh towards the UAW cause we all have some part of us that just wants more, but this strike definitely has impacted way more people than GM or the UAW. I just wish the suppliers could fine GM when they stop their plants from functioning just like GM does to the suppliers. Definitely not equal treatment there. But, we all know what we’re getting into when we sign up for an automotive job, or any other job for that matter- anything can change and usually does- so be prepared.

  17. Buzzerd Says:

    John- everything has a cost/benefit, we now know the costs so what are the benefits?
    I don’t expect AV’s to be covering the landscape tomorrow but often what happens is a break through like this to totally change things.

  18. Larry D. Says:

    14 I knew that was part of it, but not all the diff from the $29,900 base price of the BEV MINI to the $17,900 they claim in the article. Must be a deal like that with the Leaf in CA, where you got handouts from the state, your county, and even SONY if you worked for them, and at the end you got a new Leaf for not much more than $12k.

  19. Kit Gerhart Says:

    9,14 BMW has sold even fewer i3s than I realized, only 11,024 in their best year, 2015.

  20. Kit Gerhart Says:

    15 A former co-worker, who had been buying Buick cars for years, recently got an Envision, and seems to like it. He probably would have gotten another LaCrosse, if they hadn’t quit making them.

    17 Yeah, that must have included CA, or some other state and local incentives. That would be a nice “general use” car for me in Indiana, where I have a garage with power, but I don’t need another car. The acceleration is about the same as a Bolt or Kona EV.

  21. veh Says:

    The Flex has been on the chopping block for at least 5 years. Still it’s too bad it never found an audience

  22. Victor West Says:

    AVs may be okay in a few cities, but in the broad expanse of rural America, lots a luck. Country roads and weather make AVs impossible. i am three miles outside a 35K city and no painted guide lines on any of our roads, How realistic even is ride sharing outside of mega cities?

  23. Lambo2015 Says:

    21 I believe that EV, AV and ride sharing will continue to grow in major cities, and will likely be combined. They seem to be growing in conjunction with each other.

    What I wonder is, when a major city has a large number of AV, ride sharing vehicles and a storm rolls through. The effects of having 50% of the public transportation go down will not be good.

  24. Kit Gerhart Says:

    20 I remember hearing years ago that Flex was being dropped, but I guess they reconsidered a few times. I alway kind of liked its boxy appearance, but, at least in early ones, the interior was disappointing, as the seats didn’t fold to a flat floor.

  25. XA351GT Says:

    The Flex may as well been killed off I haven’t seen a brand new one on a dealer lot since the 1st or 2nd year they came out. Everyone they did sell must have been a special order or they were more popular somewhere else. I think in 10 years I may have seen 20 different ones around here in SE PA.

  26. Larry D. Says:

    Ι also liked the Flex’s unusual exterior styling but as I am not in the market for anything like that, I never bothered to check the interior.

    BTW that Kona BEV must be the UGLIEST by a mile. Ridiculous grille that looks like it has been hit by 100 small golf balls, and bulky, inelegant proportions. Sure not interested, and would not drive one if they paid me.

    Finally, some cars look good in white, but others, even cars that look good in almost any other color, do not. Today a recent white Dodge Challenger underlined the above for me. Looked too bulky and inelegant in white.

  27. Tom Rae Says:

    24. Same here in South AL., I contributed that to the outdated look.

  28. Lambo2015 Says:

    25 Same here I thought it was already killed off. I don’t even remember the last time I saw a Flex. Ahh just looked and they only sold 20,308 last year in the US. Sales peaked the 2nd year of production in 2009 at 38,717. So never has been a big seller. Surprised its hung on for so many years with such low volume.

  29. Larry D. Says:

    One thing Lutz said last AAH that surprised me was that the Corvette is the most profitable “car” GM makes! Even if he meant ‘car’ in the strict sense, not crossover-suv-pickup, I was still surprised. Such “Halo” cars would make sense for Chevy EVEN if they lost $, for every 16 year old who buys a Camaro would brag about how it is just like a Corvette, same engine etc, with an extra seat in back.

  30. Larry D. Says:

    We have plenty of non-AV shared rides here, there are always 2-3 Siennas or other Full Size vans with the relevant logos on their sides. Makes sense for those who work fixed hours like secretaries and other staff, much less sense for faculty.

  31. Kit Gerhart Says:

    26 A friend in Indiana had a first or second year Flex, which is the only one I ever saw the interior of. The main thing I remember is that the way the seats folded seemed sort of an afterthought. I was expecting them to fold like in a ’60s big station wagon.

    I don’t think I ever saw a Kona EV, but looked up the specs, which are very close to Bolt, both performance and dimensions. Maybe they don’t sell the Kona in FL or IN.

    28 I don’t think I’d know a new Flex from an old one, except that an early one that had been parked outside its entire life in Florida might has slightly dull paint, and yellow headlight lenses. I see some of them on the road, though, including today.

  32. Larry D. Says:

    31 the Bolt does not look anything like the Kona, regardless of similarity in the 3 basic dimensions, because the Kona has far bigger ground clearance than the Bolt, which looks like a chopped Minivan, NOT a crossover. In addition the Kona’s ugly face would never be confused with anything else.

  33. Kit Gerhart Says:

    29 If Lutz is right about Corvettes, it’s because of the “loaded” ones that sell for $80K and beyond. I doubt if they make money on near zero option ‘Vettes like mine with an MSRP of under $60K. If you get the basic car, automatic, the 3LT trim instead of my 1LT, it will be close to 70K. Then, you get the Z06 with the supercharged engine and tweaked suspension and it’s over $90K. They probably make good money on those.

  34. Kit Gerhart Says:

    32 The length, width, and height of Bolt and Kona EV are all within two inches of each other. I have never seen a Kona EV, so I have no opinion on how it looks. As far as ground clearance, I haven’t seen any numbers on either.

  35. Lambo2015 Says:

    The Kona looks to me like the Ford Escape not sure how they compare size wise but similar design. The grill or lack there of is awful. It actually looks like it was designed with a grill and then replaced with a solid panel and then they felt it needed some pattern and made small little lines in the horizontal and vertical direction like checker plate but blown apart.
    All the EVs look a little strange in the front without a grill and designers haven’t yet figured out what to do with that space.

  36. Bob Wilson Says:

    #35 – the bright ones make it look like the front of a sailplane or rear engine jet/aircraft. Air at the front should smoothly accelerate at the front and then as much as possible, return that energy by smoothly decelerating over the last of the body.

    The EV dummies put a grille in the front so they get the same aerodynamic drag of gas/diesel. They sacrifice their biggest advantage for ‘art.’

  37. Kit Gerhart Says:

    35,36 The recent off-the-mountain find was a reminder that Corvairs, of both generations, had among the better grill-less front ends, along with VW Beetles and various Porsches. The Tesla S front looks good, but the 3, less so.

  38. Lambo2015 Says:

    37 There are plenty cars that actually have a front radiator but pull the air from underneath and don’t really have much of a grill. Seems the EVs would mimic something along those lines.

  39. Larry D. Says:

    37 Both fronts could be easily improved significantly, at very little cost. The S just needs a more pronounced logo, the 3 which is totally bland up front needs some identification, although the snout itself does mark it out.

    36 Cars are an emotional purchase, you don’t spend a ton of $ to get a fugly car, it’s like clothes, would you waste $thousands on a suit that looks awful on you, just because it is comfy?

  40. Larry D. Says:

    The race is on!

    After Tesla’s Gigafacrory 3 in Shanghai-Pudong, with 500,000 full production capacity, VW ups the ante with a further 600,000

    I think it would be a reckless move by VW if it did not have the blessing of the bigwigs in Beijing.

  41. Lambo2015 Says:

    39 Cars are an emotional purchase for some. More and more people especially the newest of drivers seem to care very little about cars and even having a drivers license. I know of three teens that waited until they were 17 and 18 to get their licenses. They look at cars as a necessity to go from A to B and are more concerned if it has Carplay than what it looks like.

  42. Larry D. Says:

    41 For almost all, even the young punks that hate cars, their non-buying is even more emotional.

  43. Kit Gerhart Says:

    40 VW should certainly “know the ropes” about doing business in China, having been there for more than 30 years, but they will need to compete with Tesla, not an easy thing in the EV world. VW will probably have some lower cost, shorter range cars than the Model 3, and will probably have utilitarian hatches as early products, but Tesla will probably beat them in performance, and “cool factor.” We shall see.

    41 I work with some teens with an HS robot team, and those whose families can afford it, generally want to get a license and drive, when old enough. I’m in an area, like like most of the US, which has almost non-existent public transportation. It’s been a few years since we’ve had an actual car enthusiast with the group. They want to drive, just so they can get where they want to go.

  44. Larry D. Says:

    GM itself claims it lost $3 bill in profits and has adjusted its profit guidance for the year by that amount.

    I wonder if after 40 days strike the UAW got more than $3 billion in raises and benefits they did not have before.

  45. cwolf Says:

    44) No. UAW worker wage gains total between $16-20M/yr. Signing bonuses may have totaled $4M. These are just quick ball park estimates.
    Three percent raises don’t add up too much when it’s broken down in smaller pieces. My guess is that higher paid workers will make about $3K/yr more.

  46. cwolf Says:

    sorry, multiply bonus $ by 10. ($50M)

  47. Kit Gerhart Says:

    That $3B must be some simple calculation based on lost production. No one knows how much GM really lost.

  48. Bobby T Says:

    I bought my second Flex this year because it was the end of the line. I love it. It’s like an old station wagon. One feature that my first one had that they dropped was the ability to fold the passenger front seat back flat. Great for hauling lumber! Other than that, the seats fold flat. Southeast Michigan is full of Flexes old and new. Not sure why they are so popular here.