AD #3166 – Acura Updates the RDX; Lyten’s Potential Battery Breakthrough; Mercedes Reveals U.S. EQS Pricing
September 22nd, 2021 at 11:52am
Listen to “AD #3166 – Acura Updates the RDX; Lyten’s Potential Battery Breakthrough; Mercedes Reveals U.S. EQS Pricing” on Spreaker.
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Runtime: 10:26
0:08 Lyten’s Potential Battery Breakthrough
3:03 GM Shares EV Motor Details for Ultium Vehicles
4:44 Mercedes Prices EQS Similar To S-Class in U.S.
5:47 Acura Updates the RDX
6:51 Honda Introduces New BR-V
8:23 Mike Manley Leaves Stellantis To Become AutoNation CEO
8:59 May Mobility Expands to Ann Arbor
9:47 Ford Teases Raptor Version of The Bronco
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LYTEN’S POTENTIAL BATTERY BREAKTHROUGH
Could this be the battery breakthrough the auto industry has been waiting for? A Silicon Valley advanced materials company called Lyten has come up with a way to make lithium-Sulphur EV batteries that utilize 3D graphene. Lyten says it can make batteries that are lighter, cheaper and more powerful than anything on the market today and can even outperform solid-state batteries. You’ve probably never heard of Lyten before because it’s been operating in stealth mode since most of its work has been with the U.S. military. We came across Lyten at the Motor Bella show yesterday, and here’s what Dan Cook, the CEO of the company told us.
Dan Cook: “Our innovation is really three-dimensional graphene. It’s a very innovative, revolutionary material that we developed on-shore and we own the intellectual property. Three-dimensional graphene has some pretty phenomenal characteristics. We actually marry it with Sulphur and we can create a battery that has three times the energy density of today’s conventional lithium-ion.”
John McElroy: So these three batteries (that you’re holding in your hand) are what is coming out of China today. And you’ve got one lithium Sulphur here (in your other hand) which is the equivalent of the three batteries.”
Dan Cook: “That’s right. On a gravimetric energy basis, that is correct.”
John McElroy: “And it’s lighter than these other three batteries?”
Dan Cook: “Absolutely, you can feel it for yourself. (Hands over batteries.)
John McElroy: “It is lighter than the other three.”
Dan Cook: “Yes it is.”
John McElroy: “This has got to be tremendous because you’re saying you can make these with all the materials coming from right here in the U.S., and do all the processing, because there’s no cobalt in these, no manganese.”
Dan Cook: “And no nickel. And you’re right, we can make this all domestically, using domestically produced materials. And we’re the only known, we think, the only known USMCA-compliant battery to help our on-shore as well as off-shore OEMs make the transition from ICEs to BEVs.”
Lyten says its batteries will cost under $80 per kilowatt hour, which is the magic number to make BEVs cheaper than ICEs. It plans to be in production around 2025. And here’s our Autoline Insight. China currently controls about 80% of the production and processing of raw materials for batteries, including cobalt, nickel and manganese. If Lyten can deliver what it’s talking about, this breakthrough would instantly obsolete all the investment China made in locking up that supply chain because its lithium sulfur battery doesn’t use any of those materials. You can watch that full interview on our website or YouTube channel, along with our other Motor Bell coverage, in our Autoline on the Road section.
GM SHARES EV MOTOR DETAILS FOR ULTIUM VEHICLES
In other EV news, GM detailed the three electric motors that will power its Ultium-based vehicles. Designed and calibrated in-house, the motors have a wide range of outputs. There’s a 62-kW unit used for all-wheel drive assist, a 180-kW unit that’s used to drive the front wheels and a 255-kW motor that’s used for both front and rear drive. The 180- and 255-kW units are permanent magnet motors, designed to reduce the need for heavy rare earth materials, while the 62-kW unit is an induction motor. The ultimate setup will see the use of three 255-kW motors in one vehicle, like on the new GMC Hummer EV. In order to help keep costs down, GM built the motors as a scalable family, so they share design principles and have similar tooling and manufacturing strategies.
MERCEDES PRICES EQS SIMILAR TO S-CLASS IN U.S.
Gas or electric? Mercedes is making that a harder choice for S-Class buyers in the U.S. It revealed the EQS EV will have a starting price in North America of a bit more than $103,000, including destination, but before incentives. That’s about $7,500 less than the base S-Class sold in the U.S. It’s important to note that the base EQS has quite a bit less power and is only rear-wheel drive, where the base S-Class is AWD, but when you start factoring in incentives, and we guess most EQS buyers will qualify for the full credit, we think it becomes even more compelling. AWD is available on the EQS and it’s a $17,000 option. To round out the EQS’s pricing, a top-of-the-line Pinnacle model with AWD will go for a bit more than $126,000.
ACURA UPDATES THE RDX
Acura updated one of the most important vehicles in its lineup, the RDX. Let’s start with the design changes, which are minor. The biggest difference we see is with the lower air vents. The significant upgrades were in the area of noise reduction. To bring down the decibels in the cabin, engineers added new front fender liners, thicker carpet, acoustic glass, insulation in the doors, dash, D-pillar, roof, cargo bins, rear hatch, under the hood and over the drivetrain tunnel. It even reduced the cold engine idle speed by 150 RPM. Other changes include a retuned Active Damper System, which is even more comfortable in Comfort mode and more responsive in Sport mode. It also gets new tech, an A-Spec model and a PMC Edition that come in exclusive blue paint. The new RDX goes on sale in November.
HONDA INTRODUCES NEW BR-V
Honda introduced the second-gen version of its BR-V small crossover. It gets a new design both inside and out and can seat up to seven people. It’s powered by a new 1.5L engine, which is mated to a CVT and meets Euro 4 emission standards. Safety technology, including lane keeping assist, collision mitigation, road departure mitigation and adaptive cruise control is also available. The BR-V, which was designed for Indonesia, its largest market, is based on Honda’s N7X Concept.
MIKE MANLEY LEAVES STELLANTIS TO BECOME AUTONATION CEO
Mike Manley, the Head of Americas at Stellantis, is stepping down from his position to become the new CEO of AutoNation, the largest dealer network in the country. Manley, 57, will take over that role on Nov. 1st, when current CEO Mike Jackson, 72, retires. Manley was CEO of FCA before it merged with PSA earlier in the year to become Stellantis, which is now run by former PSA CEO Carlos Tavares. It seems like Manley didn’t want to be #2.
MAY MOBILITY EXPANDS TO ANN ARBOR
May Mobility, the autonomous ride-hailing startup, is expanding to Ann Arbor, Michigan. The company currently operates shuttles in Grand Rapids, Michigan, Arlington, Texas, Indianapolis, Indiana and Hiroshima, Japan. In Ann Arbor, May Mobility will operate a fleet of five autonomous vehicles, four of which are Lexus RX 450h hybrids and the other, an electric shuttle that can also accommodate one wheelchair passenger. The service is free and will operate Monday through Friday from 8AM to 8PM in a 2.6 square-mile area of the city, starting on October 11th. All you need is the May Mobility app to set up a ride.
FORD TEASES RAPTOR VERSION OF THE BRONCO
Let’s end with something a little fun. Ford revealed it’s going to come out with a Raptor version of the new big Bronco. It’s going to be available next year, but that’s all we know so far.
And that brings us to the end of today’s show, thanks for watching.
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Comments (36)
September 22nd, 2021 at 12:26 pm
What is the charge rate of the Lyten battery?
Because of the surfur content, could there be a greater fire risk?
There are so many new advancements, I have become more reluctant to buy a new EV at the present time.
September 22nd, 2021 at 12:34 pm
Great news from Lyten. Wonder how it compares when it comes to other factors like longevity and cycles. Seems recyclability may be better with less precious metals.
September 22nd, 2021 at 12:36 pm
Hope thatMercedes EQS infotanment is better than the S class one that John McElroy had a hard time with.
And that guy is not another Ann Marie Sastry and Saktri battery Co.
September 22nd, 2021 at 12:37 pm
Lytens batter tech is the kind of innovation that often happens when companies are pushed into a corner by government regulation. All of a sudden what they said was impossible a few years ago is now maybe possible.
September 22nd, 2021 at 12:49 pm
The premium BEV market is about to get very competitive, with BEV giant Tesla , Upstart Lucid who might have best in class traction motorsand inverters,and ICE oldtimer come BEconvert Daimler with its EQ lineup, and Porsche Taycan,not to mention Rivian.
Europe already getting its Chinese BEVs.
September 22nd, 2021 at 12:51 pm
4) and often carelessly and less than thorough testing.
September 22nd, 2021 at 12:58 pm
First tires, now batteries; sulfur the wonder element! For those that are wondering what I’m talking about: a fortuitous accident by Charles Goodyear brought us vulcanized rubber by the addition of sulfur to rubber base and heating it.
September 22nd, 2021 at 1:00 pm
Graphene for batteries have been a drean since 2012 , same time Tesla modS was revealed, supposed to be the holy grail of batteries.
Any Auto CEO worth his salt should send one of their cars as a mule, if it’s (lyten) for real that auto will buy Lyton for cash or a buyout will make it the biggest elephant in the room.
September 22nd, 2021 at 1:09 pm
4 Not sure battery development is the direct result of government regulations. BEVs have been a directive and had interest for a long time. It has been obvious that battery weight,cost and power retention needed to be improved to make them more attractive.
This new battery tech has far more uses beyond just BEVs. All these EV drones and flying cars which are required to be as light as possible. Not to mention the large truck industry where hauling capacity is reduced by a heavy battery. Even cordless hand tools that any worker would be glad to have a 1 or 2 lb lighter drill.
If Lyten isn’t blowing smoke they could be a very valuable company in a very short time. Too bad they aren’t publicly traded.
September 22nd, 2021 at 1:13 pm
“Bronco Raptor” is a strange combination of names. Does that make it a flying horse?
September 22nd, 2021 at 1:34 pm
The web link is to the Lyten press release. Sad to say, I’ve not found the typical battery performance charts. Even experimental ‘button’ cells often are released with such graphs. Worse, the operation of ’3D Graphene’ is not described. Nice words in the press release but without technical specs, I’m skeptical … burned too often by ‘looks nice, runs a long time.’
September 22nd, 2021 at 1:38 pm
The Lyten piece did not mention recharging time, an important property along with weight and energy density. If it must accept a charge at a rate slower than today’s batteries, its not much of a game-changer. Hopefully, this is not the case.
September 22nd, 2021 at 1:48 pm
Unfortunate to see Mike Manley leave Stellantis for AutoNation, but there can’t be two No. 1s at any company. From every indication, Manley made great contributions to Stellantis during the FCA years to help its growth and expansion world-wide, and his presence will surely be missed! People move on, and we wish him luck in the future.
September 22nd, 2021 at 1:52 pm
It would have been shocking if Mike Manley had stayed. What I read about the PSA-FCA merger was that it was a way for the Agnelli family (FIAT) to get their money out. I DO hope the merger works out, because I have fond memories of an old Peugeot 504 I once owned. I just hope they don’t through out the what make the ‘Chrysler’ brands so valuable.
September 22nd, 2021 at 2:07 pm
Kevin, you may be happy on both fronts. Rumor has it that Stellantis is seriously exploring bringing restyled and rebadged Peugeots here to sell as Chrysler-brand models.
September 22nd, 2021 at 2:07 pm
I really hope that Lyten news is feasible. I’d love to see the Chinese finally get one shoved up where the sun doesn’t shine. They ‘re going to eat our lunch and dinner if we don’t have companies that can take away their monopoly.
September 22nd, 2021 at 2:08 pm
10 that already exists it’s a Pegasus.
September 22nd, 2021 at 2:19 pm
15) If true, that would explain why Peugeot stated it would not return to the US market. It would compete with Chrysler using the same product. I would give Chrysler a second look if they used Peugeot products.
September 22nd, 2021 at 2:22 pm
16 So in Japan land of the rising sun (Nihon) and China when the sun can go hide. lol
Yea it would be great for a battery to make all those precious metal investments a waste of money. Not to mention no longer having a monopoly of the materials needed for batteries.
September 22nd, 2021 at 3:30 pm
@9 do you really think there would be so much interest in electric cars if governments weren’t banning ICE vehicles in the future? I sure don’t.
September 22nd, 2021 at 3:45 pm
16) I wish Lytens much success as well. For so many reasons, the least of which is making an electric car affordable. Knowing that the US military is funding them, it will likely work. May cost a fortune in development, but it will probably work in the end.
September 22nd, 2021 at 3:53 pm
20 Yeah I really do think building a better battery would have still been a goal without ICE bans! Electric cars have been around years before the announcements of these ICE bans. Chevy Debuted the Volt at the 2007 NAIAS, Tesla debuted the prototype Model S in 2009. They went into production in 2011 & 2012 basically 10 years ago. EVs biggest obstacle has been batteries. Reducing weight charging time and cost everyone knew it would need to happen. They kind of figured with scale the cost would come down and lots of improvements on charging time has been made. (well if you don’t mind the occasional fire). So I have no doubt that the introduction to EVs prompted lots of battery development and the ICE bans came later which of course support that effort. Pretty sure the potential was realized and everyone knew the discovery of a better battery would make someone very rich.
September 22nd, 2021 at 3:56 pm
21 I would much rather see our tax dollars go toward battery development than buying incentives.
September 22nd, 2021 at 3:59 pm
lyten’s potential battery breakthrough. god i hope this comes to fruition.
September 22nd, 2021 at 5:15 pm
20 So far, even the promised bans aren’t having much effect on what people buy, at least in the US. A certain group of people are buying EVs, but many more are buying huge ICE powered trucks. If the bans of new ICEs happen as promised, it’s anyone’s guess what will happen to resale value of existing ICE vehicles. It will depend a lot on the price of fuel for the gassers.
September 22nd, 2021 at 5:30 pm
Really like the RDX, but the one update it needs is a touch-screen user interface. The current one is a deal-breaker for me.
September 22nd, 2021 at 6:57 pm
Touch screens are great for smart phones and tablets, but not so much for cars. Rotary knobs are the best controls for vehicles, which roll over other than perfectly smooth surfaces.
September 22nd, 2021 at 7:11 pm
Regarding the Lyten battery, key performance metrics and comparisons need to include charge time (as stated a few times above), battery life (over 200,000 miles?), and performance in weather extremes (winter and summer).
I’m awaiting the winner between Lyten and solid state, as they both seem to have a similar timeline for being production-ready.
September 22nd, 2021 at 9:42 pm
28 With Lyten being new, it will be years before it can reach production, and before we even know if it works. Importantly, how long will it last, not only in charge/discharge cycles, but in years, regardless of cycles.
September 23rd, 2021 at 2:49 am
The swift turnaround of onetime Peugeot Group (aka PSA) remains interesting to me.
Regarding batteries, I think the rapid scaling of the LiFePO4 chemistry is a game changer for small, short-to-medium range metro mobility. Cheap, safe, and based on widely available materials. LG is reportedly trying to adapt it quickly.
The flood of little urban runabouts is only beginning, and with sensible trade agreements, they could also come from parts of Asia other than China.
The German automotive magazine Auto Motor & Sport recently tested an Ioniq 5, and its charging speed is twice that of a Model Y nearly across the battery’s charge state. Exclamation mark.
Also worth keeping an eye on. It seems Hyundai is relying on SK Innovations for the cells (NCM811).
September 23rd, 2021 at 8:29 am
23) You will get no disagreement from me on that. I hate the BEV incentives. It basically makes the poor and middle class who can’t afford a BEV pay for those who can. Can literally anyone explain why a $100K Mercedes needs the tax payers to fund any portion of that extravagant expense? If the incentives applied only to BEVs that cost less than $33K, then I would be more on board with them. That would drive the auto industry to innovate and bring the prices down on their BEVs. It would also bring the price of BEVs down into the mid $20s where a substantial volume of buyers are at.
September 23rd, 2021 at 8:53 am
31 Well if they don’t figure it out the Chinese will be here with their cheap BEVs that will take all that sub 30K vehicle market.
I’m sure our government has already spent a ton of cash on battery development via the military and if some of that money would find its way into the private sector and universities I would feel that’s money well spent.
Fixing the problem is always a better answer than just adding a band-aid to the problem. So we currently spend tax dollars to offer incentives to try and push this EV directive rather than spend money to fix the problem with EVs which is the batteries.
I think everyone would agree an EV in concept is a great step in the right direction. The hold back has been and still is the batteries. Once a battery is developed that allows charging time similar to a refuel, they get the weight and cost down and has the range of a ICE there will be no problem selling EVs. Everyone would probably be happy to own one. If they could recharge like a gas fill-up the need for charging infrastructure would become the next priority because the need to charge at home goes away. It makes them as convenient as an ICE, and easy to use for everyone.
September 23rd, 2021 at 9:37 am
32 As far as a BEV charging in the time it takes to refuel a gas car, it’s not going to happen. Think about it. To charge a “large” 100 kWh battery in 5 minutes, you would need to charge it at an average rate of 1.2 megawatts. To do that at 500 volts DC, the average charge current would be 2400 amps. What size copper wire would you need between the charger and the car, 1/2-3/4 inch diameter? Then, there is the rest of the wiring within the car to handle it. It doesn’t sound very practical. Yeah, a 1000 hp EV in a drag race is discharging the battery at that rate, for a few seconds, but not for 5 minutes.
My point is that the “model” for widespread use of BEVs is not likely to include adding 400 miles of range with 5 minutes of charging, ever.
September 23rd, 2021 at 9:54 am
30 From what I can find, LiFePO4 batteries have few disadvantages, other than ~15% lower energy density than other lithium battery types. The internal resistance is higher than for some types, but for an EV, I wouldn’t think that would matter much, except for performance EVs where you are pulling very high current at times.
The LiFePO4 application I’m familiar with is receiver/servo operation in R/C airplanes. They have higher energy density, and much lower self discharge rate than NiMH, and now nearly extinct, NiCad alternatives.
September 23rd, 2021 at 11:50 am
33 All good points but if a battery was developed that could provide enough energy and only weighted in at 50 lbs, the battery swapping idea would be like swapping out a suitcase in the trunk. Sure we are probably centuries away if it could ever be achieved but I wouldn’t say it could never happen.
September 23rd, 2021 at 12:56 pm
35 Yep, with battery swapping, my #33 wouldn’t apply.