Episode 316 – Ford Posts Huge Profit, Toyota’s Recall Spreads, Renault Launches TV Channel
January 28th, 2010 at 12:00pm
Runtime7:02
Ford was able to post a net profit of $2.7 billion last year. Toyota’s recall spreads to China and Europe. Renault launches its own television channel in France. All that and more, plus a look at a unique business model from an upstart Korean company, called CT&T, that’s getting into the EV market.
Transcript and Story Links after the jump . . .
Here are today’s top headlines. Ford makes a pile of profit. Toyota’s recall spreads ’round the world. And Renault launches its own television channel.
Up next, we’ll be back with the news behind the headlines.
This is Autoline Daily for Thursday, January 28, 2010. And now, the news.
Ford Motor Company put in a spectacular financial performance last year. Despite a collapse in the global economy that especially hit the auto industry hard, Ford was able to post a net profit of $2.7 billion for the year. Even more impressive, Ford’s sales dropped by 590,000 vehicles last year. It’s revenue dropped by nearly $20 billion. And yet, it’s net profit represented a more than $17 billion improvement on the bottom line. The company ended the year with $25.5 billion in cash, an improvement of $12 billion. And even its UAW employees will get a profit sharing check of $450.
And Ford is not the only one reporting strong earnings. According to Bloomberg, Hyundai saw its fourth-quarter net income nearly quadruple to $822 million, which easily exceeded analysts’ expectations.
Either Toyota is being overly cautious and trying to protect its reputation for safety, or it has a HUGE problem on its hands. According to the Associated Press, the company is recalling another 1.1 million vehicles in the U.S. for accelerator pedal-related problems and it’s extending the recall to China and Europe.
And could this recall cost Akio Toyoda his job? According to Bloomberg, there are rumors he could step down. When he took over, Toyoda pledged to make better cars, and even though he inherited these problems, Japanese protocol and culture could lead him to accept the blame.
And here’s something we’ve never seen before. The Detroit Free Press is reporting that GM is offering lease pull-aheads, 0 percent financing, and $1000 down payments to Toyota customers, while Ford is offering $1,000 more on trade-ins of Toyotas and Lexuses. It is extremely rare to see one automaker deliberately go after another one that’s having problems with recalls. But GM and Ford are being kind of chicken about it. You will not see any official press release or mention of this on their websites about these incentives.
And here’s something else we’ve never seen before. Renault is launching its own TV channel today in France. It’s a showcase for the brand that that includes news about the latest models, motor sports updates, and historical perspectives of the brand. If you don’t happen to live in France you can watch it on the internet as well at www.Renault.tv. Programming is available in both English and French. Renault says it has the potential to reach about 30 million people with both the TV channel and its website.
A 1925 Bugatti Brescia Type-22 roadster recently sold at a Paris Auction for $368,000. Ok, big deal, except that it had just been pulled out of a Swiss lake where it sat for more than 70 years! According to the Detroit Free Press, it was pushed into Lake Maggiore by Swiss customs officials after its owner abandoned it in 1936. Now why would you push a Bugatti into a lake? Well, apparently it was registered in France and had accrued import duties that would have exceeded its value which required that it be destroyed. Despite being completely rusted-out, it’s estimated that about 20 percent of the car’s parts are reusable.
Coming up next, a look at a unique business model from an upstart Korean company that’s getting into the EV market.
One of the more interesting exhibitors at the Detroit auto show was a Korean company called CT&T. Started by a former Hyundai executive, the company makes a wide range of neighborhood electric vehicles.
The price CT&T charges for an enclosed neighborhood electric with lead-acid batteries is $13,000. But knock off $6,000 in federal tax credits and another $1,000 that most states offer, and the price drops to only six grand. CT&T claims the operating cost for its neighborhood electrics is only $10 a month, based on driving 50 miles a day.
“So what?” you might ask, makes them so special? Well, CT&T has a business model unlike any other EV manufacturer. It wants to do regional assembly and sales. Rather than import vehicles from Korea, it wants to assemble them in 40 different states in the United States with components sourced from the U.S. as well. The idea is to cut manufacturing and distribution costs, create jobs, and most importantly, take advantage of EV incentives in those states.
It is also lobbying the states to allow Neighborhood Electric Vehicles to run on roads with posted speeds of 40 miles an hour. Currently they’re limited to roads with posted speeds of 25 miles an hour. The company claims its NEV meets all federal crash standards. So far, no state has raised the speed limit for NEVs. Put it all together and CT&T has an interesting business model that makes this company worth watching.
Don’t forget to tune into Autoline After Hours tonight at 7 p.m. Eastern time. With the Toyota recall, Ford’s profits and Ed Whitacre keeping the GM CEO job, we have got a lot to talk about.
And that’s it for today’s top news in the global automotive industry. Thanks for watching, we’ll see you next week.
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Comments (58)
January 28th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Ford’s numbers make you wonder about who’s cooking the books………
January 28th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Please check your facts. The Ford program includes Honda and Nissan along with Toyota.
January 28th, 2010 at 12:19 pm
Hey, I don’t see anything wrong with Ford and GM going after the many worried and disgruntled Toyota owners. I’m sure Toyota would have done the same if the tables were turned.
January 28th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
The next two sales numbers (Jan and Feb 10) should be interesting. I am also interested to see how many copies this tall, narrow and ugly delivery van that.. got the truck of the year prize (and even John’s admitted vote, vs the far superior Equinox), despite the fact that they do NOT sell the Diesel here, was able to sell..
January 28th, 2010 at 12:43 pm
I’ve heard conflicting reports about Toyota’s initiative to halt car sales of 10 models due to unintended acceleration. An Autoblog report says that they were forced to stop selling these cars and then on good morning America they said it was voluntary? Sounds like a lot of “spin”. Is Jim Press
available for comment?
January 28th, 2010 at 12:56 pm
The feds said it was not voluntary, they were required to. Toyota struggled with this problem for months but at the end they were not able to avoid it.
January 28th, 2010 at 12:57 pm
Shows you what kind of BS one hears on these idiotic morning shows on the networks (as well as on cable…) that’w why I start my morning on the weather channel, and once I hear my Weather on the 8s I am ready to go.
January 28th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
I’ll blame my wife! she likes GMA. They started talking about cars so I became interested. I came in the house to warm up, I just finished brushing the snow off our cars and shoveling the drive way. Hey Drew, figures don’t lie, but lier’s do figure. If it’s true, it’s great news for Ford.
January 28th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
I’ve heard it said that every homeowner should have these two items in their toolbox: Duct tape and WD-40. If it moves but shouldn’t, use duct tape. If it doesn’t move but should, use WD-40.
I wonder if a temporary fix for the Toyota sticking throttle problem, would be to use WD-40 on whatever surfaces might be sticking.
January 28th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
Well, what do you know? The ugly delivery van that, incrredibly, got the TOTY award, and even John voted for the POS, has some very Toyota-like problems in China!
“Chinese Ford Transit Production Halted Over Pedal Concerns”
January 28th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
“dcars Says:
January 28th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
I’ll blame my wife! she likes GMA. They started talking about cars so I became interested.”
Reminded me of an old friend, a very succesful scientist-engineer and now VP of a large consulting co whose foreign wife really liked the Today show, and that fat bald guy with the poor wig, Willard Scott, back then. The wife’s english was not that good at first, and she insisted once that it is… “Cape God” and not… “Cape Cod” in MA!
January 28th, 2010 at 2:37 pm
My wife drives 3 miles each way to work and never hits a speed zone over 35MPH. Nevertheless, I do think that holding these vehicles to 25MPH or less is a smart move. I can’t imagine these glorified golf carts would fair very well in a collision or accident.
January 28th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
25 mph or below are speeds that make a vehicle unnecessary unless it is the dead of winter or you are way too old and/or disabled. and even with all the theft of taxpayer’s $ subsidies and tax credits to go from $13k to $6k, $6k is probably six times what this POS golf cart with a roof should cost.
Widespread adoption of these convenient POS in Retirement and other gated communitiesd will only serve to make the already obese and unathletic average Joes and Janes even further ruin their health.
I have a 1.5 mile each way commute, when the weather is good, I walk, and the shortcut is only one mile. If i drive, half of it is o na divided parkway with a 40 MPH ludicrously low limit.
January 28th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
I just got an email from my Mazda dealer offering 500 dollars conquest cash to owners and lessees of Toyota Honda and Nissan cars. Looks like Ford isn’t alone anymore.
January 28th, 2010 at 3:59 pm
Interesting… now it remains to be seen whether Toyota owners will stay loyal to their brand or will they accept the bribes and switch.
Is Honda offering any $ to catch toyota buyers? On top of being a notorious cheapskate, Honda probably does not need to, since Honda is its closest substitute.. equally reliable but a bit more fun to drive.
January 28th, 2010 at 4:35 pm
That all depends on the intelligence (or lack of) of the particular owner/buyer. There are still people who won’t buy a Ford because of the Pinto or a GM because of the Cavalier or Corsica. Even the dreadful 4-6-8 Caddy engine is brought up just as the 350 Diesel conversion disaster. Speaking of this, what would happen if a dealer went ahead and sold one of the forbidden cars anyway? And aren’t all these cars in question built here? I’ll bet some freaking supplier is gonna be in big trouble.
January 28th, 2010 at 4:42 pm
Question for AAH: Are the Japanese built Toyotas also involved or only those built in the US? I see the Yaris ,FJ and 4 runners are not on the recall list. I suspect sabotage at a Delphi plant masterminded by GM
January 28th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
It is going to be very interesting to see what will happen to Toyota and it’s US manufacturing plants. If they frame this as a US manufacture’s poor build quality issue it could kill sales of all US made Toyota’s.
January 28th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
John,
Again we only get HALF the story!!
GM is only offering their program to ONLY Toyota and Lexus owners
Mazda is offering 500.00 to owners of Nissan, Honda and Toyota.
Fords program is offered to owners of Honda Acura Lexus Scion and Toyota.
Hardly the Jumping on Toyota that you implied.
By the way are you still sticking with your story of the uninteded acceleration being driver error as you mention in the past. (go back about 4 weeks when the floormat fiasco first broke)
January 28th, 2010 at 5:37 pm
The same happened to Audi back in the 80′s with the 5000 model and they took quite a hit, and that was just one model. What’s helping Toyota is that it has only one reported accident that lead to death and the car involved is not even on the list.
January 28th, 2010 at 6:05 pm
One argument that can distinguish Toyota’s problem with Audi’s is that T. has consistently served its customers its own brand of safe vanilla car. But Audi was capturing a luxury customer from the domestics, and had no reserve of good will with its new owners.
January 28th, 2010 at 6:06 pm
One argument that can distinguish Toyota’s problem with Audi’s is that T. has consistently served its customers its own brand of safe vanilla car. But Audi was capturing a luxury customer from the domestics, and had no reserve of good will with its new owners.
January 28th, 2010 at 6:13 pm
One argument that can distinguish Toyota’s problem with Audi’s is that T. has consistently served its customers its own brand of safe vanilla car. But Audi was capturing a luxury customer from the domestics, and had no reserve of good will with its new owners
January 28th, 2010 at 6:35 pm
CTS Corporation, the supplier of the implicated accelerator pedals, has issued a statement that the accelerators were manufactured to Toyota’s specifications. Whether this is true or not remains to be seen. So, is it a design error or manufacturing error? Hmmmmmm
January 28th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
John,
I checked your archives and found that my comments RE: Unintended Acceleration in Toyota were made on Nov. 10, 2009 and your reply was Nov. 11, 2009
Not looking for anything but an explination of your thinking.
January 28th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
From what I understand there is a friction pad in the pedal assembly, to give drivers a “feel” for the accelerator, which causes the problem of the sticking pedal. If a vehicle is under a recall, by federal law it cannot be sold (I’m sitting on a 2010 Grand Cherokee which is waiting for a recall part).
January 28th, 2010 at 7:54 pm
That’s great news about Ford. It also looks like the Transit Connect may spawn some imitators.
January 28th, 2010 at 9:41 pm
John, CT&T is a great idea, but Hyundai/KIA will pressure them to sell one day. Watch, in 10 years CT&T=Hyundai/KIA Subsidiary, just like Tesla will=Ford Subsidiary.
I also think Toyota has more problems ahead. Hyundai/KIA exceeded Toyota’s quality years ago on many basic structural fronts (the interior especially-where the mats=interior part), and they still get a recall here and there once or twice a year, but its usually like 60,000 vehicles or something.
Im just being real, Toyota’s interiors right now are like a KIA from 5 years ago, and a Hyundai from 10 years ago. So, it wouldnt be surprising if there was a problem with some interior component
January 28th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
Toyota interiors remind me of the interior in the outgoing 2009 Tucson, which has been for a long time the worst interior Hyundai had to offer.
January 28th, 2010 at 11:36 pm
Re: AAH#40
Cadlillac is in England. Sure sales arent good, but they do have a small Euro Presence.
Your guest from Rumblestrip is right. Toyota has half the press in its back pocket for years; including Autoline Detroit. Strange how Hyundai/KIA had to make products that have been beating Toyota in quality over the last 5 years, and blow Toyota/Lexus out of the water to even get noticed.
January 28th, 2010 at 11:54 pm
It proves my point that in the Media there stll is a declining, but still pervasive Anti-Korean bias.
They can do better than Japan now and younger more for your money.
Chrysler 300 is an E Class (Full Sized Car). Genesis sells 2500-3000 units a month on average, John.
Car Classification of based on Size
A-Segment=City Car: Smart
B- Segment=Subcompact Car/Supermini: MINI Fiesta
B/C Car= Accent, Caliber, Versa, A Class, Soul
C-Segment=Compact Car: Corolla, Forte, Civic
C/D Car= Fusion, Elantra, B Class
D-Segment= Sebring, Camry, Optima,
D/E Car= Sonata, Accord, C-Class
E Segment= Azera, Taurus, Maxima, A6, E Class
F Segment= 740i, Equus, XLS, Genesis-Any Large Luxury Flagship=F Segment car.
January 29th, 2010 at 12:08 am
Id say the Golf is another B/C car, Its sized like a B car but priced like a C car.
Accent its priced like a B car but borders on C segment size, any bigger and it would be a C-segment car no question. The Government considers it as a C-Segment in Tests due to size, while Hyundai doesnt. It’s significantly larger than Hyundai’s Fiesta sized car sold in Europe=i20.
Fusion, is sized like a C Segment car but priced like a D Segment car.
Elantra borders on D-Segment size but its priced like a C-Segment. The Government Classifies Elantra as a D-Segment car for testing purposes, while Hyundai Doesnt
January 29th, 2010 at 4:10 am
Ok, how about some actual facts in the discussion.
The Transit sold in China is a large van built in China by a Chinese company (Ford has a minority stake of around 20% as I recall). The NA COTY is a small van built in Turkey and Romania by Ford. It’s called a Transit Connect for the same reason Chrysler is calling all Dodge trucks Ram—strong name recognition in the LCV market.
Tesla has already become an associate of Daimler AG. Ford has already had their fingers burned with Th!nk, and Chrysler already builds more of this style of NEV than anyone else with GEM.
Toyota still builds Corollas, Camrys and other “American” vehicles in Japan and ships them to the US to make use of excess capacity in Japan. Since the recall relates to components sources from one supplier, the same vehicles will probably be affected no matter where they are made. You can bet road safety authorities in every country where Toyota sells these vehicles will be asking if their market is effected. If as CTS says it is the design dictated by Toyota that’s the problem, the answer will be “yes”.
The question for consumers is whether this is symptomatic of a larger problem with Toyota. Is Toyota cutting costs by finding a better way to build cars, or if they are just finding “cheaper” ways to build cars. Since they lost a lot of money last year they’ve been ordered to cut costs dramatically to make up for endemic mistakes in product planning (yet to be fixed), so you have to ask if the lesson has really been learned.
January 29th, 2010 at 4:30 am
HyundaiSmoke, perhaps you should check actual specifications and pricing before you spout off.
There are no hard and fast rules for European size classifications (except for commercial vehicles which are classed by payload capacity in cubic meters). Everyone makes up their own rules using their own formulas. Ford’s is nominally based on size, but they’ve let it drift a lot (a Mondeo is stuck in the with the C/D designation even though it’s bigger than the old E-segment Scorpio, the Focus is still C-segment even though it’s bigger than the first Mondeo). VW’s is so completely self-referencing it has no connection to vehicle size at all. According to VW, a Golf is A-segment, a Passat B-segment, an A6 C-segment and a A8 D-segment.
If we accept your basic size classifications there are still a number of errors.
The two-seat smart fortwo is in a class of its own. There are at least two size classes of 4- and 5-seat vehicles between it and B-segent subcompacts such as the Fiesta. What you may call A0 are restricted size minicars such as the Japanese Keijidosha. At up to 3.4 meters long they are still almost a meter longer than the smart.
January 29th, 2010 at 6:51 am
On last night’s AAH the panelists and bloggers went on a “Toyota is done” frenzy, they’re all wrong. Toyota will learn from this and come back better than ever, you’ll see. And all this talk about how great the Focus/Fiesta are going to be, let’s just wait until the actual products are out and how they hold up after a few years. Don’t toot the horn prematurely.
January 29th, 2010 at 7:43 am
Im talking about US standards Andrew. You’re correct, when you start adding niche producs such as Kei cars the classification system goes bonkers.
January 29th, 2010 at 7:51 am
HyundaiSmoke, perhaps you should check actual specifications and pricing before you spout off.
There are no hard and fast rules for European size classifications (except for commercial vehicles which are classed by payload capacity in cubic meters). Everyone makes up their own rules using their own formulas. Ford’s is nominally based on size, but they’ve let it drift a lot (a Mondeo is stuck in the with the C/D designation even though it’s bigger than the old E-segment Scorpio, the Focus is still C-segment even though it’s bigger than the first Mondeo). VW’s is so completely self-referencing it has no connection to vehicle size at all. According to VW, a Golf is A-segment, a Passat B-segment, an A6 C-segment and a A8 D-segment.
If we accept your basic size classifications there are still a number of errors.
The two-seat smart fortwo is in a class of its own. There are at least two size classes of 4- and 5-seat vehicles between it and B-segent subcompacts such as the Fiesta. What you may call A0 are restricted size minicars such as the Japanese Keijidosha. At up to 3.4 meters long they are still almost a meter longer than the smart. Above the A0 segment is the true, unrestricted A-segment, comprising vehicles such as the Fiat 500, Ford Ka, Chevrolet Spark, Renault Twingo, Fiat Panda, Hyundai i10, Kia Picanto, Toyota Aygo, Suzuki Alto and Daihatsu Sirion.
In the gray area between the A and B-segments lie cars such as the Mini, Suzuki Swift, Citroen C2, Nissan Micra and the 5-door Toyota Yaris.
In the fully-fledged B-segment are cars such as the Hyundai i20, Ford Fiesta, Mazda2, Scion xD, VW Polo, VW Fox, Chevrolet Sail and the current Aveo. The lwb Mini Clubman fits in here as well.
Your B/C segment accurately describes B-models which have strayed into the bottom of the C-segment—Opel Corsa, Peugeot 207, Fiat Punto, Renault Clio, Honda Fit (hatch) and City (sedan), Hyundai Accent, Kia Rio and the next-gen Aveo previewed in Detroit. Most of these cars are bigger than 10-year old compacts.
The A-class however is a smallish B-segment MPV, while the Caliber and Versa are true C-segment. The Versa is priced like a B-segment model, but outside the US it’s a direct competitor for the Corolla, not the Yaris, and it’s sized to match. Like the Corolla though it’s built for Japanese-market size restrictions, and isn’t wide enough for US-market requirements. Thus the Sentra.
The C-segment contains models such as the Corolla and Forte yes, but also the Elantra, and B-Class. The Elantra and i30 are, after all, the same size as the Forte and built on the same platform. The Golf is still a size above the Accent, but only just. It’s at the small end of the C-segment and in danger of being eclipsed by the larger B/C cars while its European competitors edge into the D-segment.
If you want to describe a C/D-segment, then it must include larger “compacts” such as the European Focus, the new Astra, the Cruze, Prius, Volt, the Civic sedan (the hatch is smaller), Renault Fluence, Lancia Delta, BMW 3-series, Mercedes C-Class and Lexus IS series.
The D-segment is a shrinking portion of the midsize segment. It contains the Optima, but no longer the Camry, Sonata or US-market Mazda6. Other models include the new Peugeot 408, Subaru Legacy, Toyota Avensis, Vw Passat, Audi A4, Toyota Mark X, Saab 9-3, Infiniti G37 and Accord Euro (TSX).
The Sebring, Fusion, Sonata, and Camry are all as large as the E-Class. The Genesis isn’t any larger than the Accord, and about the same size as an A6, and not much bigger than an Azera. The Sonata is large enough that Hyundai will build a smaller D-segment model for Europe and some other markets.
The F-segment you describe comes in two basic size groups, defined by short and long-wheelbase versions of the 7-series and S-Class. At the bottom end are cars such as the LaCrosse, Avalon, 300, Charger and Impala and the new 9-5, former upper-midsize models that have grown up in size, but are still not quite as big as the smaller European large cars. The benchmarks are the BMW 7-series and Mercedes S-Class. The Jaguar XJ-series pushes the limits of this smaller “large” car segment. Above this are the BMW 740iL, lwb S-Class, Lexus LS460L, Hyundai Equus and Bentley Continental. The current Taurus is one of the larger F-segment cars, as big as a 740iL and Hyundai Equus. The Buick Lucerne, Lincoln MKS and the Australian-built Chevrolet Caprice are also about this size. Audi’s new A8 starts as large as an LS460L, and stretches into the vacant space between the large car and “town car” segments with the A8L—a few old relics such as the Toyota Century, Crown Victoria and the “old” Ssangyong Chairman L are the only other cars this large so far.
Above that you get cars such as the Bentley Mulsanne, Rolls-Royce Ghost and the soon to be late Lincoln Town Car. Stretched versions of the new Hyundai Equus and Ssangyong Chairman W are also this long, but not quite as wide.
At the top you get the thin air occupied by the Maybach and Phantom, in short and long-wheelbase forms.
The EPA classifies cars by a crude index for interior volume (headroom x legroom x shoulder room + cargo volume), not by actual size. Hiproom doesn’t count, and there is no analog for separate D- and E-segments. Just minicompact, subcompact, compact, midsize and large. There is no comparable government classification system, certainly not one that classes the Elantra as a D-segment model. Historically most governments have cared only about engine size and “fiscal”* horsepower, not vehicle size.
* An index of “taxable” power based on engine dimensions rather than measured horsepower—the “2″ in 2CV and the “3″ in 3-Series, a 315 originally having 3 fiscal and 15 measured horsepower.
January 29th, 2010 at 7:54 am
Things change as well. A Corolla or Elantra from 10 years ago would be considered a B segment if it was produced today. A 10 year old Camry or Sonata would be Considered a C segment car if it was produced today.
A last gen Civic was the size of the Fit today. Last Gen Civic was a B Car, and now its a C car.
Americans like larger sizes, as all of these other niches arent really neccessary to classfy in this country. If you want to get Militant about it, A Segment classification isnt even large enough in size; literally and figuratively to even be worth a Classification.
Im an advocate of nothing smaller than a B car being legally allowed to be sold in the US market.
January 29th, 2010 at 8:11 am
Genesis is 4 inches longer and 2 inches wider than Accord. Its about 500 lbs heavier as well.
January 29th, 2010 at 8:24 am
Mazda is offering 500.00 to owners of Nissan, Honda and Toyota.
I am sure it will being in a flood of Mazda sales… NOT!!!
What are these idiots at Mazda thinking? When GM and Chrysler offer TWELVE TIMES as much to sell their POS, why would one be lured by this ‘lunch money’ insultingly tiny bribe to switch, and from the Japanese “Big 3″, to buy some crappy, lame-ass, “zsoom-zoom mobile”???
Boy are they dense and really out of touch!
January 29th, 2010 at 8:26 am
Bring in, not.. being in, above.
I don’t remember the details of the 80s Audi case, did the have to do a recall? Did they stop sales? Did they fix anything, or was the whole thing an imaginary fault?
I do remember it wreaked havoc with their sales for years later…
January 29th, 2010 at 8:29 am
Andrew,
Thanks for catching the thing with the different Ford Transits, when I saw and posted the info about the Chinese one I did not know it was any different than the small one we import from turkey, and as for the “Connect”, I did not realize it changed the vehicle into a whole new and smaller class.
I noticed you wrote your comprehensive replies to Smoked at.. 7:50 AM… if you are retired, you may have the time, but if you are working, boy, what a bite into (my) most productive time of the day (mornings)
January 29th, 2010 at 8:30 am
( i did not mean I lost time because I cannot afford to read all of this, I meant what a bite into your time if you are working)
January 29th, 2010 at 8:34 am
“The benchmarks are the BMW 7-series and Mercedes S-Class. The Jaguar XJ-series pushes the limits of this smaller “large” car segment. Above this are the BMW 740iL, lwb S-Class, Lexus LS460L, Hyundai Equus and Bentley Continental.”
I did read this much though, and although I appreciate it as an owner of a long german top sedan, I think you define size by the interior cabin, not the trunk. Trunks of the 7 are almost smaller than those of the 5 series, the 7 is not a family vehicle but one to take three buddies golfing, so the trunk is appropriately not too large, and most of the space goes to the rear of the cabin, rear leg room. the US large sedans of the past had long lengths, much longer than the S and the 7, but wasted all the extra length on the trunk (a three-corpse trunk per the requests from New Jersey and Chicago) while the rear leg room was LOUSY (go in any Ford Crown Vic taxi, and my condolences if your legs are as long as mine..and I am only 6 1″)
January 29th, 2010 at 8:37 am
The increase in sizes is mostly to retain the old customers, I think, who like bigger and can afford bigger cars as they age, and then when they retire they want a really large comfortable cruiser to do long trips to travel or see the grandkids. (no damn commuting any more!)
As thety creep up, the makers introduce smaller brands, but most of them do not sell well, not much demand for them so far.. will $4 return change this?
Fit -Civic-Accord
Yaris-Corolla-Camry-Avalon
Fiesta-Focus-Fusion-Taurus
Aveo-Cruze-malibu- Impala
Versa-Sentra-Altima- (maxima)
January 29th, 2010 at 9:19 am
http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts/toyota_troubles_100128/
In defense of Toyota. I know Jeff Liker well, academically he is not a big deal, and his book “The TOyota Way” looks like 100% Toyota cheerleeding, he is almost as bad as Smoked Hyundai is here!
January 29th, 2010 at 10:14 am
http://issue.imotormag.co.uk/car-news-car-reviews-cool-cars-car-videos/1X4b505529adda6012.cde/page/11
Watch this UNbelievable chase of a stupid boxy scion Xb that apparently is running circles around the dumb Crown Vics or whatever the half-dozen police cars are, complete with Benny Hill music.
January 29th, 2010 at 10:58 am
Nick writes:
“the US large sedans of the past had long lengths, much longer than the S and the 7, but wasted all the extra length on the trunk (a three-corpse trunk per the requests from New Jersey and Chicago) while the rear leg room was LOUSY (go in any Ford Crown Vic taxi, and my condolences if your legs are as long as mine..and I am only 6 1″)”
If you go back far enough, the big American cars had both big trunks and big back seats. My first car, a ’57 Chrysler (126 inch wheelbase) had a huge back seat and a huge trunk. Somehow, the recent Crown Vics didn’t do so well, but they are not as big as a ’57 Chrysler, Buick, etc.
January 29th, 2010 at 11:03 am
Sure, if you go back over 50 years! I remember a Chrysler Imperial that a friend’s grandmother left him, my parents and I took our first tour of Wash DC by night in its back seat, with the driver and his wife being our able guides, but that was back over 30 years ago.
Today, if you take a Crown Vic cab, you will suffer in the back seat if you are 6′ or above.
And that in a vehicle which is 212″ long or so, vs the 202 of even the L versions of the 7 (the latest one may be 205). And the main reason is the huge, 3-corpse trunk on the US cars, vs the very modest one on the 7.
January 29th, 2010 at 11:05 am
I think that was a 65 or 66 Imperial. Funny that it was his grandmother’s, women usually hate large cars. They left that whale on the curb, and there is a sharp turn with low visibility where they live, and one night (after 1992 or so) some bum ran into it and totaled it.
January 29th, 2010 at 11:42 am
I had a Grand Marquis for a while, and yes, those things have small back seats for a car that big. The wheelbase is only 115 inches, which tends to scrunch the rear seat forward.
January 29th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
Hyundaimoke a standard size class spans around 8″ (twice that if you use GM’s overlapping segment guide which take width into account as well). 4″ is nothing, just a finger-length, and in any case there is NOT a 4″ difference between the Genesis and Accord. It’s just 1.4″. The new Nissan Maxima is actually smaller than the Altima.
I will make some revisions to the large car segment, as some new models are somewhat larger than their predecessors.
At the bottom end, a few inches under 200″ long are cars such as the 300, LaCrosse, 9-5, Avalon and LS460. The new Aston Martin Rapide is about this size too. At around 200″ long are cars such as the Mercedes S-Class, Carbon E7, Charger, Impala, BMW 740i and Maserati Quattroporte. The new Jaguar XJ and Audi A8 now well into the upper half of this segment, along with the Taurus, Caprice, Lucerne, LS460L, MKS, XTS, Equus and Phaeton L.
At 205″ and above are the new 740iL, S350L and XJ L. Each new models trumps the one immediately preceding, and the new A8 L should be no exception. The Toyota Century and Cadillac DTS are a couple of inches bigger and the Continental Flying Spur about an inch or so longer again. The Crown Vic is bigger again, but as has been said, it’s all trunk room, and even a few midsize sedans have as much passenger room.
At around 213″ and above you get into the town car segment, starting with the late Bentley Arnage and the new Rolls-Royce Ghost. The swb Town Car itself is again all trunk, and if you want real legroom, you need the Equus L or the more subtly stretched versions of the Ssangyong Chairman W and Cadillac DTS.
January 29th, 2010 at 8:55 pm
The Chevy lineup in the US will soon span the same size classes it does elsewhere:
Spark, Aveo, Cruze, Malibu, Impala, Caprice.
While externally it will be the smallest car on the market, The Spark actually has more passenger room (86.9 cu-ft) than the Yaris (84.1) and xD (84.5). A competitive subcompact should have around 90 cu-ft.
January 29th, 2010 at 8:56 pm
Lmao, boy are you guys being very technical about it. I gave john a Layman’s answer, and you got very technical with it.
If John doesnt understand car segment classifications after this, I dont know about this guy. Lmao!!!
Andrew we both got it wrong. Its 1.8 inches longer.
That does mean one thing, however. Honda needs a new Midsized car to replace Accord. Accord is a huge car its larger than Sonata, which is another huge car bordering on E segment classification. The Accord is very porky, and unreasonably huge for its size, and looks like a GM product.
It also doesnt help that the Accord is Honda’s ugliest product BY FAR its sold here in the past 30 years either.
January 29th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
Yaris is a Tiny B segment though. Its an old school traditional B segment car. Accent hatch for Example has (92.2) Passenger cubic feet of volume.
January 29th, 2010 at 9:14 pm
The Civic is 90.9 Passenger Cubic Ft, and the Civic is technically a C-Seg. The Fit is 90.8.
Civic Coupe is Tiny inside. Its 83 Cu Ft. Genesis Coupe is 88.8 cu ft, and it proves my point that anybody who would buy a Civic SI over a Gen Coupe is an absolute dumb ass.
You’re getting less 1 MPG, 20 Less HP, 4 LESS GALLONS IN THE FUEL TANK!!!! IN A CAR YOU CANT EVEN GET LEATHER IN!!!!
After Winding Road’s article about Civic Si and Gen Coupe. I reccommend that Winding Road shouldnt be taken seriously anymore.
January 29th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
That’s how I go car shopping. The car with the biggest, and smartest numbers to fuel economy and price, and size. Hyundai has the numbers.
The Primary Reason why I looked at Fit and said ABSOLUTELY NOT was Fuel tank Capacity. Accent carried almost 2 more gallons than Fit. When I added what I want in a car up Fit didnt make the cut.
January 30th, 2010 at 4:49 am
Vehicle length can vary greatly in different markets. From memory the late Honda Fit grew 9″ cosmetically for the US market, and it showed in the relatively awkward appearance. This is partly why vehicle size classification is so arbitrary. Peugeot has a complex formula for determining size classes for comparative purposes, but they consider it proprietary and aren’t sharing. Interior volume can also vary greatly by market. Different seat padding, specification changes etc. EPA data doesn’t always match published interior dimensions either. Slight changes can add or subtract a few cubic feet.