AD #3322 – Ford Faces Big Decision on Rivian Stock; Harley Intros Another Electric Bike; Canoo Warns It May Not Survive

May 11th, 2022 at 11:56am

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Listen to “AD #3322 – Ford Faces Big Decision on Rivian Stock; Harley Intros Another Electric Bike; Canoo Warns It May Not Survive” on Spreaker.

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Runtime: 11:42

0:08 Canoo Warns It May Not Survive
0:36 Lordstown Motors Has Until Saturday
1:07 Vinfast Could Delay Its IPO
1:31 Ford Faces Big Decision on Rivian Stock
2:53 Cadillac Escalade V-Series Is a Monster
4:21 Toyota Highlander Gets 4-Cylinder Turbo
5:09 Range Rover Sport Added to The Line-Up
6:45 BMW iX1 Range Numbers
8:13 VW To Revive Scout Brand of International Harvester Fame
9:22 Tesla to Put CCS Connectors on U.S. Chargers
9:53 Russian Auto Industry Sinks to Depression Levels
10:31 Harley Intros Another Electric Bike

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35 Comments to “AD #3322 – Ford Faces Big Decision on Rivian Stock; Harley Intros Another Electric Bike; Canoo Warns It May Not Survive”

  1. Bob White Says:

    Rivian is dead. It’s over. First thing you know, this will be at $5. No revenue and massive losses. The electric car bubble is over.

  2. MERKUR DRIVER Says:

    1) Not so sure about the electric car bubble, but Ford certainly is responsible for potentially killing Rivian. There is no logical reason to purchase a $75K mid size BEV truck from a start up over the $40K full size BEV truck from Ford who has been doing trucks forever. So Rivian will be in the dust bin due to competition from one of its key investors. What a tangled web.

  3. GM Veteran Says:

    Well, Rivian is having some production issues. I suspect they will get those ironed out. They are a very well funded company with billions in their bank account. I think its a bit early to count them out.

    Some of the other EV startups that haven’t made it to production are probably going to go into the history books. As many others have said, this business takes a lot of capital and a lot of expertise. Being short of either one dramatically reduces your chances of success. Its probably too late for Lordstown and Canoo. Someone might buy their assets out of bankruptcy and achieve some level of success. Bollinger may be another iffy prospect, their new partnership with Roush notwithstanding.

  4. Lex Says:

    Why doesn’t VW bring back the BUG as a BEV?
    All the Hippies and Tree Huggers will buy them up if priced around $25-30K USD.

  5. Kit Gerhart Says:

    2 But doesn’t the Rivian have a built in picnic table, or something like that?

    Yeah, there’s the electric Ford p/u, and soon the Chevy, which will have extra versatility with the mid gate. I don’t see the Rivian taking a lot of sales from either of those. The thing Rivian has going for them is the big order from Amazon for delivery vans, and prospects for other commercial sales.

    Based on pickup drivers I know, I’m not convinced there is a huge pent up demand for electric pickup trucks, but we should soon start to find out. There are a lot of “reservations” for Lightning and Cybertruck, but both involve no actual commitment.

  6. Bob Wilson Says:

    Perhaps Sandy Munro might help Rivian production since the Munro family took delivery of an R1T last month.

  7. GM Veteran Says:

    I find it interesting and amusing that Cadillac attempted several “moonshot” cars to try to compete with Mercedes-Benz and BMW, and sell cars with sky high price tags even though they did not have the engineering pedigree or sales ladder that those brands earned through consistent effort over several decades. Cadillac just wanted to swing for the fences, but tried to do so using a plastic whiffleball bat. Colossal failures litter their history like the V-8-6-4 engine, the terrible diesel engines shared with Olds and Buick, the Allante, the Cimarron and the ELR.

    Back to the amusing part. Its ironic to me that they have finally found success selling big ticket luxury vehicles with the model they didn’t think they should bring to market – the Escalade. Yes, the badge engineered Chevy concept finally worked. Consistent improvement and significant differentiation from the Chevy and GMC models has finally given them a winner.

    Only time will tell if they have really learned the lesson that you can’t cut corners and skimp on features and quality if you want to be taken seriously and find real sales success.

    The Lyric is a real opportunity to take a big step toward sitting at the “adults table” in the luxury vehicle realm. It will be fascinating to watch and see how this goes.

  8. Lambo2015 Says:

    To make it in the auto industry as a start-up you need to offer something special. Being an EV isn’t enough. Tesla provided performance at a reasonable price. So many new EVs offer luxury or performance but a huge price tag to go with it. The start up that gets away from all the frills and offers a simple good looking EV that is cheap, will not be able to make enough of them. I like the idea of a EV bug and getting back to its roots of a car for everyone. They didn’t offer much amenities but they were affordable and had a likable design.
    There will be more start-ups that will fail this year as inflation continues to push the rising cost of even ICEs out of reach of many potential buyers.

  9. Lambo2015 Says:

    Tesla might as well get on board with the standard charger at this point. Why continue to be different if your chargers will allow both? Producing a lone charger specific to just your vehicles will eventually become a nuisance.

    Livewire could see the same fait as many start-ups. Harley expected sales to be around 7200 by 2023. Well they sold just over 1000 in the US and 1648 total world wide. So its not going very well. Good thing they broke away from HD.
    According to this article Livewire revenue is mainly due to kids bikes. Didn’t even know they sold them. https://biztimes.com/much-of-harleys-livewire-revenue-has-come-from-kids-bikes-not-motorcycles/?nowprocket=1#:~:text=Harley%20reported%20retail%20sales%20of%201%2C648%20units%20with,in%202023%20with%20vehicle%20revenue%20of%20%24118%20million.

  10. MERKUR DRIVER Says:

    8) Inflation is the devil this year. The recession has already begun due to rampant inflation and people are finally starting to realize it. It truly began last year both in the USA and in China, but nobody wanted to take it serious. The recession is unstoppable at this point. Last year it was preventable. The only real question is how severe the recession will be. Some are predicting a double dip recession which will destroy the economy. Others are more upbeat and stating that it will be a correction and we will all move on.

    The only question now is: How will vehicles priced above $50K fair in a recession? If the last recession is any indicator, any vehicle priced above $50K will do terribly during a recession. If you are a manufacturer that predominantly sells vehicles above $50K; you are in for a wild ride. You already see indications of this contraction with the used market which is starting to draw back and hurt companies like Carvana/Vroom first with others to follow soon.

    The good news, nobody is going to need any chips for a little bit. So that is good.

  11. Kit Gerhart Says:

    7 I won’t be interesting in buying one, at least as things are now, but I’ll be very interesting in seeing the Lyriq “in person” when it arrives.

    A short-lived Cadillac that I liked was the CT6, except they never offered a powertrain that I would want. The only engine available with RWD was a turbo 4, not even the 3.6 V6. I thought a Chevy V8 would have been a great engine for that car, preferably a “truck” version, optimized for regular gas, rather than a Corvette version.

  12. Kit Gerhart Says:

    10 The sale of very expensive vehicles is not affected as much as sales of cheaper vehicles during a recession. The rich remain rich, and will keep buying Ferraris, Bentleys, Rolls-Royces, and big Benzes.

    As far as $50K+ cars, it’s companies selling a lot of them to people who can’t truly afford them who will be affected, which probably means the “Detroit Three,” selling those expensive pickup trucks and big SUVs.

  13. Kit Gerhart Says:

    9 I don’t see how LiveWire can survive. They don’t sell them anywhere. I checked the LiveWire web site, and they don’t sell them at a huge Harley dealer a little south of me in Florida, and they don’t sell them anywhere in Indiana.

  14. Wim van Acker Says:

    @TESLA making its charging stations available to non-TESLAs: I am assuming the non-TESLAs will be charged a higher rate per kWh and that may become a great profit generator, provided the “real TESLA” owners do not end up with waiting time. I would be willing to pay that higher price; it would allow us to use my wife’s Mach-e for our monthly trips to Chicago instead of my fossil fuel burning vehicle. There is a great TESLA charging station with many outlets next to Panera Bread off Exit 27 of the I94 and it would make it perfect for us non-TESLA drivers.

    Larry D./AMG65 stated several times in the past that he believed TESLA would eventually turn into an energy company and I thought back then it was good thinking. This is an example of that.

  15. Lambo2015 Says:

    11 Well that’s what government regulation targets gets you. Vehicles you would like with powertrains that you don’t want.

    7 Yeah this EV transition period could be used as an opportunity for companies like Cadillac and Lincoln to re-invent themselves. Consumers seem already unaware of what an EV should cost but are conditioned to the fact they are expensive. So if Cadillac and Lincoln can up their game on interiors they could be contenders with true luxury brands. Cross-over engineering and sharing of components and designs would have to stop. They shouldn’t even use an air duct vent from a Chevy on a Cadillac. EV powertrains could probably be shared and the consumer would none the wiser but that again is why interior design and materials along with exterior fit and finish should become of even higher priority for those wanting to stand out.

  16. Lambo2015 Says:

    13 Maybe livewire is planning to start with kids bikes and pray those kids grow up to be EV motorcycle riders with the same loyalty as the HD crowd. Its a tough situation to be in as the HD name has value and a great following when it comes to repeat buyers. However as many have mentioned before an EV bike is just about everything a typical Harley is not. So as their core customers are aging and sales continue to drop bringing in new buyers is going to be a struggle. Anyone young looking at a Harley typically knows the brand from older family members and love them for the sound and essence that is HD. So they would be interested in an EV bike. I would imagine showing up to bike night on a Livewire and saying its a Harley will provide more raised eyebrows than Buell did. Die-hard HD riders just look down the Japanese bikes and other brands and sorry but Buell and Livewire fall into that group. Hell many didn’t even like the Vrod cause it was liquid cooled and engine was designed by Porsche.
    Not sure where they sell Livewires but I know my friend who was a service manager said they spent a bunch of money at his dealership to install chargers and train personnel before HD decided to split livewire off.
    One thing is did find interesting was the top 4 states with the most motorcycle registrations was not what I thought it would be. Thinking it would make sense for Livewire to set up shop where they have the most motorcycles. #1 was pretty obvious and that’s Cali with almost 800k
    #2 Florida 545k #3 Texas 443k and the surprise #4 Ohio with 402k

  17. Kit Gerhart Says:

    15 I don’t think the government had much to do with their not putting the V6 in the CT6. They just wanted to be more like M-B and BMW, which don’t use naturally aspirated V6s, but they use a lot of turbo 4s. It would have hurt CAFE numbers to use the V8 in a CT6, but sales volumes were so low that it wouldn’t have mattered much.

    While I’ve never been a Hyundai/Kia fan, of what’s on the market now, the Ioniq 5 and EV6 may be the best EVs out there, for the money. They have similar room to a Model Y, while costing ~$20K less. They are ~$4K less expensive than the Mach-E, comparing the least expensive versions of both. I don’t know how that goes when you compare the middle versions with similar performance and range, but I suspect the H-Ks might still be less expensive, and they generally get good reviews.

  18. Kit Gerhart Says:

    16 I was surprised that Buell didn’t do better. I would have expected Harley riders to buy a Buell as a second or third bike that was different, but yet “in the family,” but it didn’t work out that way. I know multi-Harley owners in Indiana, but none bought Buells, just another bike about like the one they had.

  19. rick Says:

    when i lived in germany if you said something to a german mechanic/car guy about any japanese vehicle they’d say to a man alte deutche technik. now they’re copying with the 4 cylinder highlander old ford technology?????? consumer reports is full of crap! it just takes them 10,15 years longer to do it.

  20. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I suspect the V6 will be replaced with a turbo 4 in the Camry too. It looks like Nassan and H/K are the holdouts with NA V6s in “mainstream” mid-size CUVs. GM still uses them in their half size bigger Traverse/Enclave.

  21. Drew Says:

    Kit, I could have been a CT6 owner, but….

    1. It seems all luxury brands want to force their customers into AWD. I reject AWD. I live in a flat state. Even in the worst weather, AWD just gives a false sense of capability, but faster acceleration does not guarantee braking and cornering. So for my driving, AWD just adds cost, weight, fuel consumption and driveline NVH.

    2. And why would anyone buy a CT6 with a ubiquitous Chevy engine? The 3.0L twin turbo was interesting, but required AWD. Then there was the very rare Black Wing… a real collectible.

  22. Drew Says:

    Kit, I could have been a CT6 owner, but….

    1. It seems all luxury brands want to force their customers into AWD. I reject AWD. I live in a flat state. Even in the worst weather, AWD just gives a false sense of capability, but faster acceleration does not guarantee braking and cornering. So for my driving, AWD just adds cost, weight, fuel consumption and driveline NVH.

    2. And why would anyone buy a CT6 with a ubiquitous Chevy engine? The 3.0L twin turbo was interesting, but required AWD. Then there was the very rare Black Wing… a real collectible.

  23. Kit Gerhart Says:

    22 I agree completely about AWD. I didn’t needed, or wanted it, even when I drove in the snow.

    To me, if they did a good job of noise isolation, the Chevy V8 would have been a good fit for the CT6. It would perform well, get close to the mpg of the more exotic engines, run on regular gas, and be much cheaper to fix if anything broke. Yeah, not very “interesting.”

  24. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Reading the entire, long “press release” about the 2023 Highlander, it looks like I missed out on one thing I’d like by getting a ’22 LE hybrid rather than a ’23. The ’23 has wireless android auto.

  25. wmb Says:

    I don’t think Rivian is doomed, but to the point already mentioned, Ford has the fullsize Lightning that starts at $40K! IMHO, with the stock in free fall, t is becoming a very attractive be for a deep pocket Chinese company to swoop in and buy in the 11th Hour! The same goes For Lordstown! With most of the heavy lifting done, they’d just need to get it over the finished line and would also have easy buy into the US market! I believe that when Ford invested into Rivian, the were hedging their bets with their new technology. When they had a look at what Rivian had, I think Ford saw that what they were doing in house was as good as, if not better! Another thing Ford had going for them is that, as John McElroy pointed out, the fullsize Lightning is lighter then the tweener R1T. That’s why I think they backed out of the SUV deal with Rivian. What will come of Rivian and Lordstown remains to be seen, but I don’t think the door is closed on them yet!

  26. Bill Nelson Says:

    Wonder if it’s ever occurred to Ford that folks don’t like the horse collar look on a car? It wasn’t well received on an Edsel grill and doesn’t appear to be making a lot of friends on Rivian headlights. Who knows? Maybe it’ll come from behind like Rich Strike. I’m sure his selling price has jumped quite a bit in the past week.

  27. wmb Says:

    Regarding thevScout, if they are planning to use a different EV platform then the MEB, but they have already talked about an electric version of their joint venture pick-up with Ford, who already builds the their Ranger (which is the bases for their Wrangler rival, the current Bronco) in the US, i wonder if this is where the ground work for the BEV Scout will begin?

    The the range for the BEV X1, as described in today’s story is a little disappointing. It seems that the range will be considerably less the the class leaders and more on par with the lackluster of the Toyota EV triplets. While I have no issue with looking ‘some/a little’ range if that is due to more attractive style as a end result! Yet, as a BMW fan, their new look on both the ICE and BEVs, is much harder to love/like the the ‘flame surfaces’ of the Bangle days as BNW design director, IMHO!

    The Escalade V sounds exciting and I’m sure they will sell everyone they make. I wonder if the ESV version will have the same 0-to-60 times? That said, in the words of the late, great Stan Lee, ‘with great (V8) power, comes great responsibility’! Hustling a vehicle of that much size (especially the ESV version), with that much power irresponsibly, can have deadly results for ALL of its potential 8 passengers and anyone in caught in its path. When I saw in the video today of what seemed like it using launch control, I just thought that never before has the choices of the driver could have such a major impact on so many people in the care, with that much power on tap!

  28. ChuckGrenci Says:

    I own a ’19 CT6 (with the 3.6 liter V6); 335 hp with AWD (which is unnoticeable and doesn’t seem to hurt mileage). I hover around the low 20′s mpg mixed and 30 plus or minus at highway speeds. And as far as Cadillac running a Chevy engine, that’s backwards; Cadillac developed the 3.6 and later it was adopted by the other divisions.

  29. Kit Gerhart Says:

    28 I liked the CT6, but not enough to buy one, as with the CT5. I suppose the last of the Cadillac cars will go away soon, because they are not selling very well. Meanwhile, the Escalade sells like hotcakes, for a ~$100K monster truck. Only in America.

    It sounds like your CT6 gets similar mpg to my Corvette, but you have a lot more room for people and stuff, and yours is quieter.

  30. Kit Gerhart Says:

    27 The ESV Escalade should weigh only ~200 pounds more than the short one, based on Tahoe and Suburban weights, so should have similar acceleration.

  31. MERKUR DRIVER Says:

    I like the CT6 as well. I just hate anything with the GM 3.6L engine or the GM 2.0L Turbo. These engines have been terrible for years in terms of long term reliability. The CT6 thusly is a great car let down by a terrible engine.

    When buying any GM product, the only ones to consider are anything with an LS V8. Every single other engine used at GM is not reliable in the long term. You can see this in the resale values of vehicles that are 5-8 years old. Anything GM with an LS V8 holds good resale value, everything else craters as nobody wants to empty their wallet to repair a 2.0L Turbo or 3.6L V6.

    You also see this in GMs sales numbers. Vehicles with the LS V8 are their top sellers. This is why the Escalade is Cadillacs number 1 seller. I would like to think this would be obvious to people at GM, but it is not as they persist in not fixing the very well known and documented long term reliability issues with their other engines that they have been producing for years. It literally takes 30 seconds of google searching on GM 3.6L V6 engine problems to find hundreds of complaints about this engine in every vehicle it is used in. Maybe GM does not have google search capability?

  32. ChuckGrenci Says:

    31, Depending on where you look, the 3.6 is vilified or lauded; most of the early problem with the 3.6 was stretched timing chain problems. These were ‘mostly’ attributed to lack of periodic oil changes. There were some problems with the venting of oil vapor being reburned, but again, this was mostly due to infrequent oil changes that let the orifice coke up and being blocked leading to increased oil usage and back to the timing chains being stretched due to improper oiling. The later engines were and are a pretty good unit. My current 3.6 in the CT6 is the LGX version and a very good engine in my opinion. Type in any engine, add problems of, and you’ll see all engines will be featured to one extent or another.

  33. JWH Says:

    #31 – No issue on my part with the LT engines.

  34. Kit Gerhart Says:

    31,32 I know several people with GM 3.6 engines in everything from Camaros to Enclaves, some with fairly high mileage, and no one has had engine trouble. On the other hand, I’ve known two people who had head gasket failures in the earlier GM 60 degree pushrod V6s. I’ve heard that some of the earlier 3.6s had excessive cam chain wear, but that might be mainly due to infrequent oil changes.

    I don’t know anyone with a GM 2.0 turbo, so haven’t heard stories, good or bad about that engine. The problem I have with it is that it’s an underperforming gas hog compared to the competition from BMW and others.

  35. Lambo2015 Says:

    32 Same here I have a 2012 CTS with 175,000 miles on my 3.6L and have not had one issue. Also when you think about the volume of vehicles that GM has used that 3.6L engine in, statistically you should find issues as they have likely sold a few million vehicles with that engine. So with a large consumption and a percentage of those consumers that likely don’t care for the car like they should you’d have issues with any engine. Not to the same degree but the 2.0L turbo is a popular engine too.

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