AD #3497 – New HVAC Adds 33% EV Range in Cold; BYD Cracks Fortress Japan; Nissan’s Way-Out Max-Out Concept
February 2nd, 2023 at 11:45am
Listen to “AD #3497 – New HVAC Adds 33% EV Range in Cold; BYD Cracks Fortress Japan; Nissan's Way-Out Max-Out Concept” on Spreaker.
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Runtime: 8:30
0:00 Honda All-In On Fuel Cells
1:09 ZF, Wolfspeed Make Big Investment in EV Chips
2:01 BYD Cracks Fortress Japan
3:26 Armored Trucks Go Electric
4:22 Nissan’s Way-Out Max-Out Concept
5:00 Polestar Offers Lidar
6:04 New HVAC System Adds 33% EV Range in the Cold
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HONDA ALL-IN ON FUEL CELLS
Will hydrogen cars and trucks ever catch on? Honda certainly thinks so. It says it can double the durability and chop the costs of fuel cells by one-third, compared to one in the 2019 Honda Clarity. Once it achieves that, Honda wants to double the durability again and chop the cost in half. Then it will start selling fuel cell powered pass cars and trucks, stationary power stations and construction machinery. In 2024, it will launch a hydrogen powered version of the CR-V in North America and Japan. It will test a heavy-duty truck prototype with Isuzu in Japan sometime in the next year. And in China, Honda partnered with Dongfeng to test commercial fuel cell trucks. Even so, Honda plans to go slow. By the middle of the decade it thinks it can sell 2,000 fuel cell modules, and bump that up to 60,000 in 2030. Then it plans to sell a few hundred thousand units per year by the second half of the 2030s.
ZF, WOLFSPEED MAKE BIG INVESTMENT IN EV CHIPS
There was a hugely symbolic event in Germany yesterday. Olaf Scholz, the chancellor of Germany, even showed up. ZF is teaming up with Wolfspeed, an American chip company, to take a closed down coal-fired generating plant and convert it into a chip plant and R&D center. Wolfspeed makes silicon carbide chips that are used for power electronics in electric vehicles, as well as other industrial applications like wind generators. The plant is located in the Saarland, the traditional smokestack heart of Germany’s industrial sector. ZF will buy several hundred million dollars worth of Wolfspeed stock that will give it part ownership of the new plant, which will make 200 millimeter chips. And ZF will integrate those chips into complete systems for automotive and industrial applications.
BYD CRACKS FORTRESS JAPAN
Foreign automakers don’t sell a lot of cars in Japan. So it’s fascinating to see that Chinese automaker BYD is breaking into the Japanese market with electric cars. BYD will open 20 dealerships this year, and wants 100 of them by 2025. It will start with three EVs this year, starting with the ATTO 3, an SUV which costs just over $34,000. That will be followed by the Seal, a Model 3 sized sedan that starts at $42,000 in China, and the Dolphin which is priced under $20,000. Japanese automakers don’t offer many electric cars, so BYD doesn’t face a lot of competition. And if BYD is successful in selling EVs in Japan it’s a real threat to the entire Japanese auto industry.
ARMORED TRUCKS GO ELECTRIC
The next time you see an armored truck you might not actually hear it. Loomis, one of the biggest transporters of cash and high-end items, announced it’s expanding its fleet of electric armored trucks. It’s buying another 150 trucks on top of the 20 it already had from U.S. supplier Xos, which makes heavy duty electric commercial vehicles. The Class 6 armored trucks are built on Xos’ own proprietary chassis and feature an eAxle that generates between 401-469 horsepower as well as enough battery juice to travel 130-240 miles, depending on the application. We’re guessing a big, heavy armored truck is probably on the lower end of that scale. The expanded EV order is all part of Loomis’ sustainability efforts and says it will start putting the new trucks into operation in the second half of the year.
NISSAN’S WAY-OUT MAX-OUT EV
Is Nissan going away from boring EVs, like the Leaf? It revealed a physical version of the Max-Out Concept, which was first shown in 2021 as a digital only rendering. It’s a two-seat convertible that is designed to provide a dynamic driving experience. We like the simplicity of the arching body line and how the rectangular opening and lighting elements are picked up on the front and rear. Nissan says, “the Max-Out Concept displays (it’s) innovation to develop a diverse range of advanced and striking vehicles.” We hope that translates to more exciting EVs.
POLESTAR OFFERS LIDAR
Elon Musk says lidar is not needed for self-driving vehicles but he seems to be the only one who believes that. Here’s yet another example of an automaker using lidar. Polestar is putting Lidar units from Luminar in its Polestar 3 and 5 models. The Polestar 3 with lidar is available for order now, with deliveries expected in late 2024. And the Polestar 5, which is based on its Precept concept, will launch sometime next year.
NEW HVAC ADDS 33% EV RANGE IN COLD WEATHER
EVs lose a lot of range in cold weather, but the supplier company Gentherm developed a new climate control system that added 33% more range in cold temperatures to a retrofitted Chevrolet Bolt. It uses 70% less energy than the standard HVAC system that comes in the Bolt. Gentherm calls it Climate Sense and what makes it so innovative is that it’s based on an algorithm, not some new kind of heating system. It’s all based on human physiology. Passengers use an app to enter their height, weight, sex and age and set the temperature they want, and the algorithm calculates how to heat or cool their body. It does not use a thermometer or sensors. It uses the car’s existing HVAC elements, though Gentherm adds a neck scarf, which is a vent at the base of the headrest, and another element for passengers’ feet. The system uses about 1 kilowatt to get passengers comfy, then drops to only 400 watts to maintain that. Autoline got a chance to test it in an Audi e-Tron and while the outside temperature was only 16 degrees Fahrenheit and the cabin temperature was only 40 degrees, we felt perfectly warm and comfortable. That’s -9 degrees and 4 degrees Celsius. Climate Sense will debut on the Cadillac Celestiq and will undoubtedly spread to a lot of other electric cars.
TESLA’S PRICE WAR ARMAGEDDON
Tesla kicked off a price war that could be financially crippling for everyone else that is selling EVs. We’re calling it an EV Armageddon and that’s the topic on Autoline After Hours today. Some automakers say they can ignore what Tesla is doing and will follow a business-as-usual model. But can they? Charlie Chesborough, the senior economist at Cox Automotive and Joe White from Reuters will be on the show with their insights and analysis. And we invite you to join John and Gary when the show goes live at 3 pm eastern time today.
But that’s a wrap for this episode. Thanks for joining us.
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Comments (28)
February 2nd, 2023 at 12:08 pm
Is Honda going to build gas stations for their hydrogen vehicles?
February 2nd, 2023 at 12:22 pm
I agree the Leaf was boring, but that concept looks like a pine wood derby car I made when I was like 10. Without the lighting to enhance the looks it’s a pretty awful shape with not much style IMO.
So is Gentherm saying that EV range is reduced drastically due to the battery trying to maintain a comfortable cabin temp? I always thought that the reduced range was just due to the batteries being cold and less efficient.
So if thats the case and you didnt use the HVAC system in the car an EV would have the same range in hot and cold weather? Time for some heated/cooled jump suits to drive in.. lol
February 2nd, 2023 at 12:24 pm
GM is already making Hydrotec stand alone generators for their remote media EV drives of Hummer EV and Lyriq. So it is fitting for Honda to use it’s technology.
February 2nd, 2023 at 12:45 pm
2 Cabin heat uses a lot of power in an EV, according to this article, 4-8 kW if resistance heating is used, according to this article.
https://chargedevs.com/features/a-closer-look-at-energy-consumption-in-evs/
Yeah, jump suits, or any type of warm clothing in the winter will save range. The batteries lose capacity when it’s cold, at least until they warm up from having drain on them, but heating the cabin to normal temp probably reduces range more. Also, drag is higher in dense, cold air, and the oil in the gear reduction gets thicker when it’s cold, adding to power loss.
February 2nd, 2023 at 1:04 pm
Using heated seats and heated steering wheel uses less electricity however just driving in the cold, uses more electricity but just keep an eye on the juice gauge and keep enough electricity in battery just as an ICE car uses more fuel and with a BEV you don’t have ice in the lines leaving you dead on the road [been there done that] also you can use your phone and pre-warm However if you pre warm to a hot car 80F then you’ll use a lot of juice[done that too, won't do it again]
February 2nd, 2023 at 1:08 pm
1. Possibly, no…probably.
February 2nd, 2023 at 1:21 pm
5 I had a gas line freeze once in my 1974 Plymouth Duster. Luckily, I was near a gas station with a garage, and pushing it in where it was warm got it going after a few minutes. I doubt if gas line freezing happens any more, with E-10, which will mix with a lot more water than straight gasoline.
February 2nd, 2023 at 1:26 pm
“Passengers use an app to enter their height, weight, sex and age and set the temperature they want, and the algorithm calculates how to heat or cool their body.” Anybody know what sex has to do with heating or cooling a body?
February 2nd, 2023 at 1:39 pm
Florida Power and Light has what looks like a good deal for charging EVs, for those in a house in the suburbs with an attached garage.
https://www.fpl.com/electric-vehicles/evolution/home.html?cid=MC23EN283&bid=1449801418
February 2nd, 2023 at 2:19 pm
1 – I don’t think so. But they might build hydrogen stations. (couldn’t resist!)
February 2nd, 2023 at 2:22 pm
Sean, I was surprised that your Honda fuel cell story did not mention GM, their partner in fuel cell development. GM has been working on fuel cell development for roughly 35 years. They have made a lot of progress. Honda has also been working on them for quite some time and I believe that they thought that combining their efforts, budgets and experience could yield a cost-competitive fuel cell product line. GM also has plans in the works to market the fuel cells to non-automotive customers, including the U.S. military.
February 2nd, 2023 at 2:22 pm
10 Unlike gasoline/petrol, hydrogen is a gas at room temperature.
February 2nd, 2023 at 2:27 pm
Hydrogen costs 3 times the price of electricity, is expensive to ship and store. Hydrogen cars also have substantial lithium batteries so are more expensive. So hydrogen as a fuel has limited use; only for applications that can afford the price and inconvenience. Certainly not cars, suvs or pickup trucks.
February 2nd, 2023 at 2:33 pm
We tested how much the heating system affected range on our 2017 Bolt when we first got it. Bundling up and driving in -10C or 11F weather with absolutely no heat on, we saw a 30% drop in range over a 60 km trip we take frequently. This is the loss in range because of a cold battery. I am sure newer EVs heat their battery more effectively, so HVAC plays a much bigger role in winter range drop off. There’s also the switching from rock hard EV summer tires to Bridgestone Blizzaks in winter. Don’t care about the range loss if I am in the ditch.
February 2nd, 2023 at 2:36 pm
8. Big guys run hot? Women are always cold? Of maybe they are just collecting information they can sell to Facebook and Google.
February 2nd, 2023 at 2:44 pm
14 Do you start you winter trip with the car at outside ambient temperature? As far as range loss, the main thing is having enough range to complete your trip without concern.
February 2nd, 2023 at 2:59 pm
your car makes you so comfy,you nod off,hence the need for ai
February 2nd, 2023 at 3:10 pm
8 If men and women were the same temp they never would have invented the dual climate control. Yeah women are almost always colder in the same temp car and then as soon as they are hot its time to roll the windows down. My temp pretty much always stays at 72. My wife will go from HIGH to OFF to HIGH in a 10 minute drive.
February 2nd, 2023 at 3:11 pm
12 – OK, you got me there!
February 2nd, 2023 at 3:34 pm
14. The Bolt is a great winter car. Even starting cold you have heated seats, heated wheel and hot air blowing by the time you’ve backed out of the unheated garage and headed down the driveway.
We set the car temp at 21C and live with the range consequences. As the second car, we do all our charging at home or cottage and range is still more than enough to only require charging a couple of times a week.
February 2nd, 2023 at 3:54 pm
20 I hadn’t thought about it, but yeah, you would get hot air almost immediately with the resistance heating. It would cost range, but with your home charging and short trips, it doesn’t matter much. Operating cost is still very low.
February 2nd, 2023 at 5:12 pm
BYD breaking into the Japanese market with an BEV?! I’m sure the Big Japanese Three will be kicking themselves for not getting into EVs sooner, if the BYD vehicles take off in their home market!
Armored vehicles could be a good fit for EVs. Great torque, fairly short range trips, but not needing the battery packs and power of a vehicle like the Tesla semi!
February 2nd, 2023 at 9:33 pm
22 The jury is still very much out as far as whether Toyota et. al. are doing the right thing. They are, for me, but probably 70% of Americans have access to home charging, which would change things a lot.
More people probably live in high density housing most places than in the US, but they might be doing a better job of provided EV charging for those people.
February 3rd, 2023 at 5:12 am
#2.) While shapely and with interesting light display, the Nissan Way-Out Max-Out looks like a smaller, less appealing, convertible Dodge Charger concept, to my eye. Thought the Charger concept is red hot fire, the Way-Out Max-Out is kind-of ho-hum! A BEV version of the Z car or the GTR (Godzilla) would have been more exciting, IMHO.
February 3rd, 2023 at 7:37 am
23 I looked into this a year or so ago but it’s not anywhere near viable for 70% Americans. Only about 65% Americans own a home, but 10.6% are vacant and 2.7% are second homes so only about 51.7% are living in their homes 100% of the time, and only about 80% of those have a carport or garages. So now your down to 41%. Not that you couldn’t throw an extension cord from the house but you’re likely using 120V at that point.
Then throw in that 15% are over 80 years old and 1/2 of those still only have a 60amp service so take out another 7% and you’re at 34%.
The last caveat to this is the US median income is 70K a year. Meaning 50% are below that amount. Who is going to spend 55K on an EV when they make less than 70K a year? With this, all-in mind I would say the actual market for a 60K EV is maybe 30% at best. Getting the price down to mid 30s can increase that and offering more places to charge will too but I really think they should be looking for 40-50% EV saturation as being successful.
February 3rd, 2023 at 8:17 am
25 Not that you have to have a garage to own a EV but my point was when they speak about EVs they make it sound simple when its not that simple. I also remember when Larry was here and would say, people said the same thing 120 years ago about cars and wanting to keep their horse and buggy. It’s not about wanting to keep “old technology”. It’s just not as convenient as they make it sound.
Also, the difference 120 years ago when the car was coming out. We didn’t have the government telling everyone they had to stop using horses and buy a car in 12 years. The market drove interest in the automobile not regulations or manufacturers refusing to keep making buggy’s. It happened how it should and if an EV is a better product people will gladly buy them.
February 3rd, 2023 at 8:33 am
Wyoming just told the Gov no to 27 Million for EV charging stations because once installed they dont want to be responsible for maintaining them.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/tax-dollars-are-wasted-building-electric-vehicle-charging-stations-in-cold-climates/ar-AA172qz3?cvid=9e38aa6c77e1423eaa85c943e42b5adf
February 3rd, 2023 at 9:13 am
25 I was just guessing about the 70%. As far as home ownership, that is irrelevant. People rent houses with capability for charging, and I own a home without that capability. Anyway, time will tell what happens with EV adoption over the next several years. People I know with EVs like them. One person with a Model S uses it for everything. Others mostly have Bolts, and use them for shorter trips with home charging. I’d probably be in the latter group, for one of my cars, if I had home charging.