AD #1224 – DOJ Fines Japanese Suppliers, New IIHS Test, GM Reveals HD Trucks

September 27th, 2013 at 11:56am

Runtime: 7:52

Nine Japanese suppliers have pleaded guilty to a price-fixing scheme in the U.S. and will have to pay a hefty fine. To help encourage automakers to adopt crash avoidance systems, the IIHS is now testing cars equipped with them. GM just took the wraps off the heavy-duty versions of the 2015 Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra. All that and more, plus a preview of Autoline This Week which is all about cars in the Henry Ford Collection.

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Hello and welcome to another brand spankin’ new episode of Autoline Daily. I’m Sean McElroy filling in for John, in the second half of the show we’ll take a look at one of the unlikeliest rare cars around but first today’s top stories.

Over the past several years the U.S. Justice Department has fined and sent several executives from auto suppliers to prison over a price fixing scheme. And yesterday the DOJ laid the hammer down on several more companies involved in the conspiracy. Nine Japanese suppliers have pleaded guilty and will pay more than $740 million dollars in fines. And two executives also will serve time in prison. Attorney General Eric Holder says the scheme affected more than $5 billion dollars in auto parts and more than 25 million cars. Altogether, 20 companies and 21 executives have been charged in the conspiracy.

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety is now testing crash avoidance systems. The agency looked at seventy four 2013 and 14 models, and seven of them received a Superior Rating which means those cars feature autonomous braking and can avoid a crash or drastically reduce speeds, during tests of 12 and 25 MPH. Six models received an Advanced Rating, meaning they have autobrake and can avoid a crash or reduce speeds by 5 MPH in one of the two speed tests. Twenty five vehicles earned a Basic Rating for being equipped with a forward collision warning system that meets NHTSA standards. And the remaining vehicles did not offer those systems or meet IIHS or NHTSA standards. Click the link in today’s show notes for more details on the test.

GM just took the wraps off the heavy-duty versions of the 2015 Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra. They have an all-new chassis with fully boxed frames, an updated Duramax engine and Allison transmission and an all new cab that uses hydraulic body mounts. The trucks now have a payload up to 7,374 pounds and a trailer rating of 19,600 pounds. They also feature the same bed upgrades as the full-size models and all HD models now come with electronic stability control. The trucks will be built at the company’s plants in Indiana and Michigan.

Last month Nissan announced it will have a fully autonomous vehicle ready for sale by 2020. In order to meet that goal, the company is getting set to test semi-autonomous LEAFs on public roads in Japan. The cars are equipped with what Nissan calls an Advanced Driver Assist System which can keep the car in its lane, automatically change lanes, exit the highway, overtake slow cars and stop at red lights. But the system is designed to allow the driver to take over the controls at any time.

And speaking of the LEAF, deliveries of the EV in the Dallas-Fort Worth area are up 500 percent from last year and the company hopes its new No Charge to Charge program will help continue that trend. It allows new buyers and lessees of the LEAF one year of unlimited free charging at its public stations, called eVgo. The program extends from the Dallas-Fort Worth and greater Houston areas including the airports in those locations, which totals 40 stations. The promotion will run from October first of this year until March, 31st of 2014.

Earlier in the week we reported that Chrysler had delayed production of the 2014 Jeep Cherokee and would not ship the vehicle until September. But the Detroit News reports that production will start back up next week and Cherokees will start hitting dealer lots within a couple of weeks. At this point I feel that we should take whatever Chrysler says about Cherokee production with a grain of salt and just wail till they actually hit showrooms.

Coming up next, a look at how one of the least expensive cars sold in the U.S., is also one of the hardest to collect.

On Autoline This Week, the topic is all about cars in the Henry Ford Collection. In the following clip, the former curator of transportation at the museum, Bob Casey, explains how some cars you wouldn’t expect to be rare, can be some of the hardest to find.

Also joining John for that show is Matt Anderson the Curator of Transportation at The Henry Ford, and Patricia Mooradian the President of The Henry Ford. And as always you can watch that show right now on our website,

And that’s it for today’s. Once again I’m Sean McElroy thanks for watching and we hope see you right back here on Monday.

Thanks to our Partners for embedding Autoline Daily on their websites: Autoblog and

72 Comments to “AD #1224 – DOJ Fines Japanese Suppliers, New IIHS Test, GM Reveals HD Trucks”

  1. Jon M Says:

    Free charging an EV sounds like a great incentive, but I would sure be keeping tabs on all those free “fill-ups.” That is, how much each recharge would have cost me if I were paying. I’d certainly want to know if there’s going to be sticker shock (pun intended if you wish) when the meter does start running.

  2. Bradley Says:

    Ah, no super-hero, tough-man, tensed vocals like the GMC Truck commercials. I am surprised GM didn’t force Sean McElroy to describe the GM Truck with a Batman voice. The Chevy Truck commercials are much better.

    However, nothing beats the “Take On Me” VW commercial or 2014 Corolla commercial for current run commercials.

    Fiasler (Fiat/Chrysler) is trying to have “good” commercials, but GM and Ford are really lacking. The commercials from the foreign nameplates always seem to do better.

  3. pedro fernandez Says:

    I knew Nissan’s SBW system was directly related to robocars and here we go with the announcement of their autonomous program. ps the opposite of winning the lottery would be to get one of those early production Cherokees

  4. XA351GT Says:

    As a person who finds himself drawn to cars that are fairly rare, I don’t find it surprising the Omni/Horizon twins are hard to locate. As he said they were disposable appliances. As are truly 90% or more of what has been produced from 1980 onwards. Now that isn’t to say that someone ,like the gentleman in Ohio wouldn’t be drawn to them. However even with their significance I would find myself walking on by to the next car. The Duesenberg is rare because they were produced in very low volume and were custom made. You bought a chassis and then had a coach builder put the your body of choice on it. Omni’s were sold with rust standard. If the motor didn’t blow up from bad head gaskets they rarely lasted until the payments were through from the dreaded tin worm. So area and hard to find are not the same thing. A guy I work with has a love of mid to late 70s VWs with FWD. He had a Gen 1 Jetta coupe diesel, a Mk1 Rabbit and has 2 Mk 1 Scirocos. None that rare when new ,but 35 years later not many about ,but he has his sources.

  5. XA351GT Says:

    That should have read “rare” not area. Admin when can we get a edit function here ,please.

  6. MJB Says:

    #4 – Speaking of VWs, I’ve always liked the styling of the Corrado. Over-priced back in it’s day, but always a head-turner (for me).

  7. Jon M Says:

    Sorry, XA351GT, but an edit function wouldn’t have helped with that typo. Rare and area are both words and were correctly spelled ;-)

  8. Brett Says:

    I doubt if they will ever have an edit function as long as there is no formal login required to post a comment. Without that, it’s impractical to discern if the person requesting an edit is the same person who posted the original comment.

    I use WordPress for my sites, too, and it is possible to do it, but I think it would be too much of a bother for the casual posters to create a username/password pair and log into the site to post comments.

  9. pedro fernandez Says:

    Perhaps Chrysler should hire as a consultant some retired Subaru AWD system engineer to show them how it should be done.

  10. XA351GT Says:

    Jon M ,that is true ,but I could’ve went back and corrected my mistake. It always looks correct until you hit send.

  11. pedro fernandez Says:

    This forum is as dead today as my local Mitsubishi dealer!!

  12. Bradley Says:

    Not if Mitsubishi can bring back the Mighty Max pickup and through a diesel in it. :)

  13. Bradley Says:

    Through = Throw

  14. pedro fernandez Says:

    At this point, not even Mighty Mouse can save that company! question for you gear heads out there: just got an oil change and the guy put in 20W50 and even though it has helped with my oil consumption, it has hurt mileage and I notice the car kind of lethargic since , even though I got new rubbers, wheel bearings and alignment, the regular oil change tech has told me NOT to use the heavy stuff and stick with 10W30 even though I have to add some every week, any thoughts out there?

  15. pedro fernandez Says:

    #14 what did I say that is incorrect?

  16. Ziggy Says:

    New GM pickups have boring styling, did they lay off the truck stylists at the design center to save money and then have the janitors give it a go? I think it is funny that Consumer Reports rated the brand new GM pickup just 3 points ahead of the current RAM pickup, all that effort to bring out a new truck and you just score a lousy 3 points ahead of a truck that has been out a while. I’d be embarrassed if I was on the GM team that hatched that boring looking truck.

  17. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I still see a few OmniRizons on the road, many more than Chevettes, which had much worse rust problems.

    I have a mint condition Mk 1 Golf Cabriolet. There are always a few of these “hard to find” cars, because a few are spared the road salt, and are driven few miles.

  18. cwolf Says:

    What’s so bad about the looks of the GMC and Chevy P/U’s? A good many have been fond of the style for years and the new ones are even more attractive as a truck. Why drastically change something that already works? Given the facts Ford and GM have been neck to neck on truck sales and RAM has become a worthy rival, I’d say 3 points is 3 points for the better. I’m a Foed guy, because of the Z-plan, but I’d be just as content with a GM if’n I had use for one.

  19. cwolf Says:

    correction: should have said,”I’m a Ford guy.”

  20. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Ziggy, how do you figure GM should be “embarrassed” to have the highest ranking pickup truck in CR’s tests? I suspect they are rather happy about it.
    Actually, the 3 points is a bigger margin over second place than you see in most of their rankings.

    As far as the styling, not every pickup buyer wants their ride to try to look like a Peterbilt. Maybe GM is leaving that market to Ford and Ram.

  21. cwolf Says:

    The Leaf is so much discounted, if it wasn’t for the lack of battery life data and lack of a few area plug-in stations(like at work), I’d be tempted to buy one as a go-to-work car. At present, 5 yr. est trade-in values are est. at about 5% lower than a typ. small car. If things went “south” during my Leaf ownership, I’d drive it till the battery died or wheels fell of, then throw it away.

  22. C-Tech Says:

    GM has always produced good pick-ups, Ford will step up their game

    Not that impressed with the A-ha and new Corolla commercials. The Dart commercial emphasises the car. Audi’s Diesel commercial is a great introduction. BMW’s 3-series mother-in-law commercial is playful.

    Looking forward to seeing a comparsion of the Chrysler 300 SRT, and Cadillac XTS-V.

    Has anyone seen any auto mag do a comparision of the electric cars? Leaf v. Mitsu Mi-Elect.?

  23. C-Tech Says:

    Hard to find subcompacts from the 70′s and 80′s
    Vega (est. the Wagon) / Monza
    Civic CVCC
    Opel (Isuzu version)
    Opel Wagon (Euro version)
    Renault Alliance
    VW Fox

  24. HtG Says:

    21 what about the Ford Capri? Everybody forgets the Capri. :)

  25. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I haven’t seen a Yugo on the road in a while.

  26. HtG Says:

    23 I remember the time I saw one.

  27. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I searched “electric car comparo,” and several articles came up. There is some useful information.

  28. Brett Says:

    I liked the German Capris. I always wanted one with the manual tranny and the 2.0L “Cologne” engine.

  29. C-Tech Says:

    @ #22 I never thought of the German Capri as a cheap, disposable subcompact. It was better than that. The Opel Manta and GT, Mercury Capri were just too good to be considered in that class.

  30. Ziggy Says:

    To spend all that money on developing a brand new pickup truck line and it looks like 99% of what you have had in the market for the last 7 years or so just shows me that there is no vision at GM as far as pickup truck styling, I’m not saying the trucks are ugly, it’s just that they look like what has been on the road for the last 7 years, no real change for the better. And I’m sorry, but only 3 points ahead of your competition and comments that it is a better vehicle for most buyers that use them as cars would embarrass me if I had just spent all that money and time trying to stomp the competition. The vehicle already looks dated and it has only been out a few months. Where’s the reach? When I worked at GM I saw the sketches to some really cool styled pickups but I guess the management at GM is still playing it safe and putting out boring looking pickups. I predict they will regret not stretching on the styling in a few years when their trucks look like they were built in the early 2000s.

  31. Kit Gerhart Says:

    So you think “only 3 points ahead” is bad. In some vehicle classes, there are 4 and 5 vehicles within 3 points of the number one vehicle in those tests. With pickups, the almost new Ram is 3 behind, and the next highest is 8 points behind the Ram. I can see the Ford ads now. “The F-150 EcoBoost is only 11 points behind Chevy in tests by a leading consumer publication.” I think the Chevy/GMC did pretty well in CR’s tests. They “won,” not that everyone cares about what CR says.

    So the new ones look like a lot like the old ones. So what? They are better in about every way. Some people don’t want the overwrought “macho” look of some of the competitors.

  32. HtG Says:

    27 yes C-Tech, you’re absolutely right.

  33. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I first saw Capris when I was in Scotland in the navy in 1970. It struck me as being sort of a European Mustang, which was probably the intent. I liked the car.

  34. cwolf Says:

    And I always thought the Capri was limited to a small Isle south of Naples! Huh…go figure!!

  35. ColoradoKid Says:

    Yet another example of one of the Big Three missing the boat ;

    Ugh ! What could of been


    Capri – Owned one . 1974 w/Zakspeed DOHC conversion ( I4 ) suspension mods etc . Loved it stock . Loved it even more once I’d done the mods … Porsche Fly Yellow .. black interior .. One done it was a 911 killer ( if you wanted the better handling you kept the 4 cylinder and did the DOHC conversion which I got thru a friend in the AF stationed in Germany .. and somehow managed to slip by the State Inspectors year after year ….. ha )

    Small Mustang though ? Not hardly . The intention and marketing was more like Ford’s idea of the poor mans BMW… and even with minor tweaks … it was a brilliant little thing that Ford of Europe should of evolved rather than dumped

    That later US Mustang derived Capri though … was a travesty


    cwolf – 32 – And a lovely place it is ;-)

  36. ColoradoKid Says:

    32 – cont. as well as it being a style of women’s pants … :o

  37. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Being a small Mustang was the exact intent of the Capri. It was basically a Cortina, or one of the other Euro Ford sedans with a sportier body, as early Mustangs were based on the Falcon.

  38. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I went to Capri from Sorrento years ago. As I remember, the boat ride was not long. The whole trip was great.

  39. HtG Says:

    Car Spying

    So I checked out the 2014 Mazda3 and Corolla. For about 20K you get some pretty nifty cars, I’d say. If you had me sit in the Corolla without any badges, I’d never believe I was in a Corolla. It’s got firm seats and an interesting mix of materials and surfaces. I’d say the whole package is pretty snazzy; prolly will upset some customers. The Mazda3 is equally high quality inside, and both cars have stitching details all around. I sat behind myself and found enormous leg and head room. Also, rearward visibility may even satisfy the toughest critic; at least in the hatch you’re going to know where your rear end is. The Mazda dealer only had two hatchbacks sitting outside, since they’re currently trying to clear out the 2013 models. They’ve had the 2014 3′s for about two weeks.

    Your 20 grand really goes far with both cars, but dang is that really a Toyota?

    (footnote, PriusC is truly a hardcore tupperware party on the inside. I am not worthy)

  40. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I know one Prius C owner who likes the car, but uses it mainly, or only for short trip driving. She actually likes in interior, in spite of its plasticiness.

    Between the Madza 3 and Corolla, I’d buy the 3 because they sell the hatch, but I was pleasantly surprised with the interior of the Corolla I checked out a few days ago.

    HtG, did you drive any of them?

  41. HtG Says:

    No, I didn’t drive either car. I only wanted to look and sit. Besides, the two Mazda 3s were out in the lot, still covered with shipping materials and tags. The salesman opened the car up for me. It’s really nice. Even the black interior fabric had textures that made it less sepulchral in there. The Toyota dealership was chock full of customers, so I could sneak around. The Corolla inside was a stick(I was told by a Subie dealer years ago that they kept the sticks on the floor because they didn’t sell, and so didn’t have to be cleaned up). I noticed the rear headroom in the Corolla was tighter than the Mazda, but then I have a long torso. The Mazda had some real headroom.

    Yes, another footnote: the Mazda site says that delivery charge to Alaska is $840 about 50 bucks more than for the rest of the US.

  42. cwolf Says:

    I gave my son a 08 Mazda3 between HS and college after putting on 26K for a work car. It is not Buick solid, but it’s handling is great for the $, quick and good mpg”s. If I didn’t need a little more cush for my tush, I wouldn’t complain for one moment if I were to buy another. My son has over 100K miles on it without anything major. This car is just fun to drive.

  43. HtG Says:

    40 yes, cwolf, I noticed that the parts felt light. Like the doors. And the ‘touch’ of everything was light. The organization of the new dashboard, with the strong horizontal line, is quite mellow. It reminds me of the coming Audis. Also, a smallish steering wheel made for a sportiness.

    As far as cush for the tush, by tush memory is that Toyotas are sofas. But the Corolla I sat in was firm, maybe because of the specific model. Heck, it had bolstering on the seat cushion. And stitching everywhere, even on the center of the steering wheel, as if to say, ‘See? Stitching!’

  44. HtG Says:

    cwolf, do you know how Mazda routed the airflow in your son’s car? Because I looked at the 2014 model, and found that inflow is from the front, exhaust leaves the rear face of the block. I took a look because I was told at the NY show that SkyActive didn’t fit in the compartment for then current units. There’s a big gap between the engine and the firewall on the 2014.

  45. cwolf Says:

    HtG, I’ll take a peek as soon as the rascle comes home. Wow!,a gap in the engine compartment…really?

  46. HtG Says:

    the manifold is exposed. There’s about 10-12″ of space from the block to the firewall. There’s also a vertical heat shield . Usually everything is so very tight these days.

  47. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Hmm, engine airflow….

    I think I have the last two engines in the world, or at least sold in North America, with non-crossflow heads, a Chrysler 2.5, and a VW 1.8 two valve. Both engines have the manifolds on the back of the engine. They would also be among the last engines with distributors.

    There is lots of space in front of the engine in the van, and more in the VW than most recent small cars. The plugs are very easy to get to in both, and the oil filter is easily accessible from under the hood in the van. Things are pretty tight in the back, though, with the intake and exhaust plumbing close to the firewall.

  48. XA351GT Says:

    The South Africans took the capri and shoved a V8 in it and called a Perana. One damn fast car by all accounts and cleaned up on the race tracks down there. Check them out on youtube. A friend had a 4 banger Capri a 75 . That car flat out screamed. One of the fastest 4 cylinders I had ever been in.

  49. Kit Gerhart Says:

    What V8? A Windsor 302 or something?

    Yeah, those cars are light enough that they would be quick, for the time, even with a fairly mild V8, and with a strong one….

  50. XA351GT Says:

    Yeah Kit,a little high revving 302. These buggers screamed.

  51. XA351GT Says:

    Here’s the Perana story link.
    Now if I didn’t screw up that should work. LOL

  52. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The link worked. Thanks.

    The Capri, and the Cortina it was based on were low tech, with their live axle and leaf springs, but looked good, and had lots of potential for going fast.

    From the video, it looks like Perana did the same treatment with the Cortina, and did some cool stuff with those early, rear drive Escorts.

  53. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I meant the Capri looked good. The Cortina, not so much, but it would have been a cool “muscle car” with that 302.

  54. HtG Says:

    Having Massachusetts license plates and driving a 3series BMW is no way to go through life, son. When you’re driving in a parking lot with one way traffic, you don’t block traffic waiting for the car in front of you to wait for the gal to take her bags out of the shopping cart, put them in her trunk, and pull out.

    Go around. It took the guy a few minutes to figure this out. True story.

    interesting footnote; this is the kind of vignette which has given rise to the northest automotive term, ‘massachusetts d*mbf**k’

    The term is not used within Massacusetts, since it’s too haad fa’em ta panounce.

  55. HtG Says:

    Var., see New Jersey plates invariably confused when in the Empire State.

  56. Kit Gerhart Says:

    It is now getting difficult to even identify a Florida plate, especially for out of state people. There are over a hundred kinds, and most cops don’t seem to care if you have a frame that hides “Florida” on the plate.

  57. HtG Says:

    Off Topic

    An explanation for Oracle’s win. From Reuters

  58. HtG Says:

    54 sorry Kit, I meant that drivers from Jersey get confused.

  59. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Thanks for the link.

  60. T. Bejma Says:

    Besides the Versa Hatch, Nissan makes another vehicle on the new cars to avoid list – Xterra…

  61. ColoradoKid Says:

    Kit – 35 – A history lesson ( from one who knows ) ;-)

    1) The Capri was in fact based on the Escort … not the Cortina etc

    2) The Capri most certainly was NOT built to be a baby Mustang . Fact is Ford was selling Mustangs then as fast as they could ship em over to the EU/UK while it was BMW’s 2002 and later 320i that was giving them sales fits against the Escort … so it was a Poor Mans BMW that the Capri was both created to be , intended and marketed as …. not a baby Mustang

    [ " The Ford Capri Story " Chapman " .. as well as any other Capri history book you'd care to read ]

    Read the ads back in the day … read the history …. its all there in ‘ Black & White ‘

    Sheesh ….


    As to the 302 Capri’s from Sud Afrique ….. yeah they were fast … in a straight line …. get em the twisty’s though and they were absolutely worthless ( because even with body mods there was no way to get enough tire underneath ) Nahhh … it was the DOHC conversion that was the way to go for an overall performer


    HtG – 55 – Ahhhhhh…. just as the WW/Pinkman marathon had finally gotten me emotionally over the whole Larry Ellison /Oracle con job …. and what to you do ?!?!?

    Thpppppppppppt !!!

    FYI and on the topic of marathons – Chrysler vs Marchionne … think of it this way . Walter White is Chrysler ( apposite …. yes ? ) and Pinkman is Marchionne .. sure Pinkman got WW into the business … made him millions etc …. but ultimately …. Pinkman due to his fits and foibles became a major liability instead of an asset

  62. ColoradoKid Says:

    58 – Seriously son ?

    Did you bother to actually READ ( got ya ) the article ?

    What they’re complaining about is the fact that the XTerra is still a REAL SUV … actually one of the last of the breed … and not a fluff bucket doe it all for you ( yes my GLK is a fluff bucket ) CUV/SUV wanna be

    Gotta tell ya son … I’m no Nissan XTerra fan boy or anything …. but if I was wanting a REAL SUV to really use in the backcountry …. I’d take the XTerra over anything GM has on offer at present … seeing as how GM doesn’t have anything genuinely off road ready when it comes to SUV’s

  63. ColoradoKid Says:

    35 – cont …. BTW … take notice Kit … the bodies of the Capri I & II’s were designed by …. Ghia …. there’s a hint …. ;-)

  64. HtG Says:

    59 weren’t you choking Todd along with Jesse? Arrrrrrr!

    ‘Goodbye, Lydia’ errfff, I still need to kill her some more.

  65. T. Bejma Says:


    This is the part I read, did you? Gotcha back ;-)

    “Consumer Reports says it “feels crude” and lags the competition in terms of performance. It gets low marks for initial quality and design/performance from J.D. Power and far below average residual value from ALG.”

    Just had to through a GM jab in there as well, huh old man? CK, I must say you have gotten very predictable and, to be truthful, uninteresting in your obvious hate for GM. Let it go, we have made, and continue to make significant progress even without you.

  66. T. Bejma Says:


    Stop with the BrBa stuff! Between you guys and the TV this morning, I’ve almost figured out finally and I am only half way through Season 5 on my tablet!

  67. HtG Says:

    64 sorry TB. Eff me. But no way you have it figured.

  68. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Look it up. The Capri was based on the Cortina, was was intended to be to the European market, what the Mustang was to the US market. The Capri was a niche product in North America, but sold in large numbers in Europe.

    For a start, see this:

    The Escort didn’t even exist until 1968, and development of the Capri, from the Cortina was well underway at that time.

  69. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Also, CK, take a look at the video XA351GT posted the link to. You will see Cortinas with the same V8 treatment as the Capris, because they are basically the same car. The Escorts were smaller and narrower, and Perana Escorts didn’t have V8′s. They had hopped up fours.

    Sheesh, CK.

  70. Kit Gerhart Says:

    61, Yes, the styling of the gen one Escort was a somewhat like the Capri, but the rest of the car was not. The Escort was a new, smaller Euro Ford, which sold well. I saw a lot of them on the road when I was in the UK for a year in 1969-1970.

  71. Kit Gerhart Says:

    CK, are you still saying that Oracle was sandbagging in those early races, and that they didn’t actually find some more speed from their boat?

  72. XA351GT Says:

    C/K @ #59 Really they didn’t do well on the road course? By the looks of the video I posted a link to, they seemed to do okay for themselves. Eye of the beholder I suppose.