AD #2450 – Chevy Bolt EV Sales Plunge, Autonomy’s Impact on Automakers, Chinese Market Slowing Down

October 5th, 2018 at 11:39am

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Runtime: 8:14

0:26 Chevy Bolt EV Sales Plunge
1:48 Car Sales Stall in Europe
2:31 Chinese Market Slowing Down
3:27 Honda Backs Out of Deal with Waymo
4:09 Valeo’s Clever Camera Lens Cleaner
4:38 GM #1 Company in Gender Equality
6:06 Autonomy’s Impact on Automakers

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50 Comments to “AD #2450 – Chevy Bolt EV Sales Plunge, Autonomy’s Impact on Automakers, Chinese Market Slowing Down”

  1. Larry D. Says:

    I forgot they classified the fat hatch Bolt as a “truck”, but it seems it did not help sales any, not with the looming $35k Tesla 3, much more car for much less than the ridiculous $42k GM asks for the Bolt.

    Add to this that soon both GM and Tesla will have sold more than 200,000 plug-ins and after that, buyers will lose half of the 7,500 tax credit, and so on until they lose all of it, and the future for the compliance Vehicle Bolt is bleak.

    Chinese market: while the govt there is pushing and subsidizing EV sales, non-EVs there are MORE expensive than here (same models). So they can easily revive the market by cutting some of the taxes they impose on non-EVs. They have trillions in reserves, so it is not like they cannot afford it. So, problem solved.

    And then the annoying Mr Burns (actually “Dr”). he has a book out, so I guess the media are obligated to listen to his nonsense. But I wish they ever held him accountable for all the fairy tales he pontificated the last 30 years, especially about how (back in the 90s) in 10 or 20 years (that is, by 2010 or so), everybody would be driving a fuel cell car and be so happy.

    I really will not watch him again. I was in the same table with him once in the past and had a not at all memorable discussion. He is a fanatic who confuses wishful thinking with what will really happen.

  2. Barry Says:

    If GM is #1 in gender equity, how does the cross town rivals, Ford and FCA fare in the rankings? Also, what about Tesla? Were they in the study too?

  3. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The Bolt would be classified as a “truck,” like all of the ICE powered tall hatchback wagons, like Ecosport, HR-V, Trax, CX-3, etc.

    The thing that would help sell Bolt would be a $12K price cut from the current $36,600 base MSRP. Even with the tax rebate, it’s still $30K.

  4. Larry D. Says:

    3 How could that work? By your own words, even a $12k cut will still have a fat hatch at $32,000. AND more important, GM already loses a bundle on every one it sells at $42k. If it had the deep pockets of Toyota, it might be able to afford it, but not the GM as it is today, and all its problems.

    The Volt, which was a huge deal in its time, and had no range anxiety, failed because of the same reason, they compared it to the half-price Cruze on which it is still based (now it actually looks much more than a Cruze than the original nerdy looking Volt), and the Cruze has good MPG too.

  5. John L Says:

    Whether you’re talking Bolt, Volt, or BMWi3, the high purchase price, combined with astronomical depreciation, makes the EV or PHEV a questionable value. In a select few states, there are additional incentives in addition to the federal incentives that may make them a reasonable value. I test drove a used i3, and would definitely buy one, but not at $52K. $22K for a gently used one makes you wonder how bad a hit you might take if you go that route. With the manufacturers still losing money by the truckloads on EV’s, there won’t be any major incentives coming to move them.

  6. Chuck Grenci Says:

    I think maybe some of the Bolt lower sales is due to which markets their cars are available in. I was looking at the Bolt and what was available (in and around Charleston, SC); there were two available. It seems the dealers are not only not pushing electric sales, they aren’t even ordering any (for stock).

    Auto sales in Europe tanking because of emissions; well, when you change the rule so abruptly, it’s going to take some time to meet standards. How would you like to be playing poker and the government changes the rules of the game. Sales had looked pretty good last year in Europe (at least they were showing a rebound from earlier).

  7. Kit Gerhart Says:

    4 The MSRP, including “destination charge,” is $37,495. Subtract $12K, and it’s $25,495, more in line with similar size ICE vehicles. Yeah, in order to sell it for $25.5K and break even, batteries, and maybe some other parts need to get substantially cheaper.

    Even beyond purchase price, with Bolt, or with any of the Teslas, there is the concern of the very expensive battery needing replacement, maybe 10 years down the road.

  8. Albemarle Says:

    Bolt may be up a bit in Canada because GM sent some more across the border. Ever since they introduced the Bolt, it’s been a fight to find one here. Now that the largest Canadian car market, Ontario, dropped the $14,000 rebate on EVs, GM increases availability. With GM’s gender equality, I don’t know whether to blame him or her.

  9. Larry D. Says:

    6 I believe the Bolts, leafs , fiat e500s and the like are ‘compliance vehicles’ and the 3 teslas are “got to have them” vehicles that happen to be EVs. So I don’t expect the same laws of pricing to apply to them, and when I checked used tesla S prices, US-wide, there was nothing under $40,000 (!!).

    In contrast, you can find used Leafs with low miles for $7,000, and used Ford Focus Electrics for not much more, and Mitsu electrics for peanuts, $4k or so. Used Volts are also extremely affordable, $10k or so with not too many miles on them, and they have no range anxiety either.

    I am curious how the new Tesla Roadster, a high-performance supercar, will do. Will Ferarri and Lambo and Porsche Turbo buyers buy it?

  10. Larry D. Says:

    7 $14,000 is a humongous subsidy! is there a nationwide oneas well as the above Ontario one? And one would think, with gas prices in Ontario much higher than in the US (I live only one hour drive from WIndsor, ON), there would be less need for it. I just checked and they are $1.20/lt canadian, or about $5/gallon Canadian also

  11. Kit Gerhart Says:

    8 People with a lot of spare money probably buy Ferraris and Lamborghinis mainly “because they can,” and to decorate their garages. To actually drive, the Tesla should compete well, but the Italian exotics sound really cool.

  12. Frederick Schmidt Says:

    Cars are getting smaller and people are getting bigger. Could this be why trucks are selling much better? More room and better road and driver visibility. Most pickups and SUVs just have more comfort and cargo room. I’m six foot and these days that isn’t that tall anymore. My Nissan Murano is just more roomy than my Honda Accord. Yes there are still large cars but most have gotten smaller while trucks and SUVs are getting larger.

  13. Larry D. Says:

    11 I’m 6′ 1″ and can fit in my E class fine, (driver’s seat) but have bumped my head against the door a few times, quite painful.

    It is not just more room, it is the ease of entering the vehicle. Unless it is a very tall SUV, it is far easier for everybody to sit in an SUV than any car. You just ‘parallel park” your butt there. Especially for lower cars like my old Civics and Accords, 20 years ago my knee would hurt many times when I sat in the low driver’s seat, but this never happened with my taller Driver’s seat vehicles (not SUVs) I had later.

    Then there is visibility, far better in an SUV, and ground clearance, which makes it easier to barrel through tall snow on the driveway in the winter. (weight helps too).

    But also they are truly “utility” vehicles. I once inherited a bookcase from a friend who was flying to work overseas, and neither his or my sedan could take it, but a friend’s Jeep Cherokee (not even a grand Cherokee) more than could.

    I just returned from lunch and saw two Toyota Sienna Minivans (more apt, Maxivans, while the Bolt is a mini-Minivan), one was a shared ride vehicle. They looked very good, even the front end, and seemed very capacious inside. But if I drove one of these just by myself I would feel silly, these are supposed to be filled with people or kids.

  14. Larry D. Says:

    PS I could not believe it but it happened to me. A colleague gave me a ride in his Merc GL 550 SUV he got certified used (a 2012) for about 30k two years ago. A huge black vehicle on the outside, but when I tried to sit on the passenger seat, I just could not fit! There was very little interior room. And this is Mercedes’ largest SUV!! There was a reason for that, which was that this guy, who is of average height, always raises the seats in his cars to the maximum possible, so he can have a more commanding view, and he, his kids or wife must have done the same to the passenger seat!

  15. Frederick Schmidt Says:

    LarryD Yep!

  16. Vic Maslanka Says:

    Valeo pronunciation:

    Valley-oh, not Vallejo.

    Listen to the CEO:

  17. Kit Gerhart Says:

    12 I don’t know how big that book case was, but it might very well fit in a Prius.

    A Sienna is a great vehicle, if you really need room for a lot of people, or 4-5 people and quite a bit of cargo. The new Pacifica is even better, and has a more versatile interior, but the Toyota would generally be more reliable. Both are HUGE, though, compared to my first generation non-grand Caravan. The new ones are two feet longer, 7-8 inches wider, and 5 inches taller than my old one, and they are about 1200 pounds heavier.


    I looked at a BOLT to purchase new. I couldn’t get over the price. I wouldn’t buy the Model 3 for the same reason to be honest. 40 grand for a little car? Uh…No.

    I think what spurred the BOLT sales though were leases from people who were awaiting the TESLA model 3. Now that it is out, they are jumping over to TESLA. I know a few people who have done exactly that. It will be interesting to see if they come back to GM after driving the TESLA model 3.

    I think the second factor in their sales decline is that GM anounced that there will be a super fast charging version coming out soon. Why buy the current one knowing that soon you will be able to get one that can charge far quicker? They effectively made the current one obsolete with that anouncement. On top of that, any potential resale value the current one might have had is now destroyed after that anouncement. Charging times matter A LOT in this vehicle space.

    I might be inclined to buy a heavily depreciated used BOLT as a commuter car though.

  19. Kit Gerhart Says:

    17 I’d think leasing, with warranty, would be the best way to “buy” a used Bolt, Tesla, or any other EV. The batteries are very expensive, and based on my experience with phones and laptop computers, I’d be surprised if the car batteries last even 10 years.

  20. DonC Says:

    With respect to Bolt sales, GM is about 7500 sales away from triggering the phase out of its tax credit and is no doubt managing sales so it sells its 200,000 plug in on January 1st. A manufacturer gets the credit for the quarter when the number is hit and for the next quarter. After that the value of the $7500 credit drops significantly. So the incentive is to sell the 200,000 car early in the quarter and to avoid selling it late in the quarter.

    Wouldn’t surprise me if GM tried to swell the inventory numbers so it has cars are available after January 1st. They’ll also have to devote capacity to making Bolts for the Cruise Automotive roll out.

  21. joe Says:

    The Chevy Bolt is a real good car, but the style needs to change! Make a sporty looking car and the younger generation will buy it like crazy. That’s what they want. The Model 3 Tesla is not as good as the hype will tell you, but people buy it because it’s a sporty looking electric car.

  22. Bob Wilson Says:

    #5 – Part of the “astronomical depreciation” is from the first owner’s tax credit. The best buy is an end-of-lease because the car will be maintained with the remaining manufacturer’s warranty. The rest is choosing wisely.

    Sandy Munro did a BMW i3 teardown and my experience has been very positive with our 2016 BMW i3-REx. I’m taking it to a green energy tour at noon today.

  23. Larry D. Says:

    16 it was either a 7′ or 8′ tall bookcase, I really doubt if it would fit in the Prius, but even if it fit, this would not make me buy a Prius. While I know it is very fuel efficient, it lacks the passive and active safety you need on US roads. I was hit in our old but low mile Civic in 2016 and was lucky not to break anything, just had muscle pains for a couple months, and that was in the old country, hit by a similar sized (but heavier due to the 4 people in it) Mitsu Colt that violated a stop sign. If I had this car in the US and was hit by the average 4,000lbs (5,000+ with passengers and cargo) vehicle on our roads, I might not be so lucky.

    I don’t even do a lot of miles. But even if I did, and the mpg would have more than a really tiny benefit, I would still value my life and limbs far more than a few measly bucks. After all, I can’t take them with me, can I?

  24. Larry D. Says:

    17 You are right about the Bolt. The Model 3 has little in common with the Bolt, other than that both are EVs. It is a much longer, larger car, competes with the 3 series, and then the prices are comparable. The Bolt is even shorter than the compact Chevy Cruze, it is based on the smaller SONIC GM car which competes with the also slow-selling Honda Fit (despite the Fit’s good design)

    I think there is not a chance in hell that anybody who has driven the Tesla 3, and wants a PERFORMANCE EV, not an APPLIANCE, will ever go back to GM’s (or Nissan’s for that matter) pitiful EV offerings.

    if you can wait 2 years, you can find heavily depreciated Bolts for commuting. I always encourage buying used, it is almost always the best bargain.

  25. Larry D. Says:

    18 Worrying about batteries for hybrids and plug-ins has been going on for 20 years now. The prius has been far more reliable than they believed initially, and this also covers its battery. As far as Tesla Batteries based on laptop batteries, I had many, many computers over the decades, and only throw them out after 10 years or more, I keep them in other rooms in the house after I get new ones. Never did I observe, in all these decades, any battery failure. When I got rid of them I did so because they were totally obsolete and only good for… word processing.

  26. Larry D. Says:

    20 I fail to see the attraction of the i3. I have seen it at the BMW dealer next to my Merc dealer, and it did not impress me inside or out. in addition, its range is lousy and its price ridiculous. And the tiny motorcycle engine that extends the range by a few measly miles, is the worst way to spend an extra $4,000 on top of the already high price.

    Sandy Munro had far more praise for the Tesla 3, and that after his initial nitpicking, and, more important, he showed how they can make it AND MAKE A 30% profit, and not lose $15,000 per vehicle as Marchionne admitted publicly for his Fiat e-500 joke of a car.

    This is extremely important because it guarantees sustainable production and not just building a few compliance vehicles and then admitting defeat and closing the plant down as they did in so many other EV cases.

  27. Kit Gerhart Says:

    21 Yeah, if the bookcase is 7 or 8 feet tall, it wouldn’t fit in a Prius, at least with the hatch closed. The floor is about 6 feet long, or a little less.

    A current Prius has lots of active safety stuff standard, I suspect a lot more than a 10 year old E-Class, though I could be wrong on that. The Prius has automatic emergency braking, lane departure warning and “prevention,” and forward collision warning. As far as “passive” safety, it has several air bags.

    Part of why I have the Prius, in addition to the mpg, is that I just like the way the powertrain works, with no friction elements. Also, of course, I like the utility of its being a hatchback. After driving a Camry hybrid, though, I’m tempted to buy one. Except for not being a hatchback, it has all the things I like about the Prius, but it is quicker, quieter, and generally more comfortable, while still getting exceptional mpg.

  28. Kit Gerhart Says:

    23 I’ve had batteries fail after about 6 years in laptops, and they seem to lose capacity noticeably after 3-4 years in phones. As you say, though, the electronic devices are generally obsolete before the batteries fail.

    As far as cars, battery warranties, at least Toyota, are 8 years, 100K miles. Cars generally last a lot longer than that in other ways. I’m certainly not worried about Prius batteries, though. Even if they fail after 10 years, there are used ones from salvage yards, and people “refurbish” them. There being a lot of Priuses on the road helps with such things. From what I can find, a new battery, installed, for a gen 3 Prius is a little over $3K, but I’m sure very few have been sold.

  29. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The battery warranty for a Tesla 3 is 8yrs/100K miles for the standard battery, and 8yrs/120K miles for the long range battery. “Defective” is defined as less that 70% retention. At this time, a replacement standard battery would probably cost at least $15K retail, but by the time they are off warranty and/or fail, they should be a lot cheaper. Also, with the large number of 3′s being sold, there should be used batteries available, as with Prius batteries.

  30. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Out of curiosity, I checked out the “order” tool for a Tesla Model 3. The base price is $49K with black paint, and black wheels. Only the “long range” car can be ordered, so if the $35K we hear about is for real, the bigger battery must cost an extra $14K.

    The only available interior is black. By the time you get non-black paint and wheels, it’s $53K. The full blown autopilot adds another $8K. I didn’t order one.

    The site said “delivery within 4 weeks.” I wonder if that is true. If it is, that’s about two weeks quicker than ordering a Ford or Chevy. The delivery time for the two motor, 4 wheel drive version is 2-4 months, and it costs $6K more than the RWD car.

  31. Larry D. Says:

    I did my weekly shopping this afternoon and while waiting in line I saw the new issue of CR and looked at its car tests.

    They had an Acura crossover (I think the RDX) and another one, both clobbered in the test scores, 67 for the Acura and almost as lousy for the other, and two sedans, the Avalon and Accord Hybrids, which got a 91 (I remember that one, just like the… Impala) and an 87 or so respectively.

    The Avalon got a great 42 MPG and the Accord a stellar 47 MPG (and neither is a small tinny car!!)

    The reason fdr the low Accord score, despite its stellar MPG, was the gear selector, they did not like it.

    Both Avalon and Accord were penalized under the “lows” column with their low seating positions, although I doubt any of the two is low compared to the ultra-low seats of Hondas in the late 80s and 90s.

    Which is ironic, when at the same time they give the Acura Crossover such terrible scores.

  32. Larry D. Says:

    I did my weekly shopping this afternoon and while waiting in line I saw the new issue of CR and looked at its car tests.

    They had an Acura crossover (I think the RDX) and another one, both clobbered in the test scores, 67 for the Acura and almost as lousy for the other, and two sedans, the Avalon and Accord Hybrids, which got a 91 (I remember that one, just like the… Impala) and an 87 or so respectively.

    The Avalon got a great 42 MPG and the Accord a stellar 47 MPG (and neither is a small tinny car!!)

    The reason fdr the low Accord score, despite its stellar MPG, was the gear selector, they did not like it.

    Both Avalon and Accord were penalized under the “lows” column with their low seating positions, although I doubt any of the two is low compared to the ultra-low seats of Hondas in the late 80s and 90s.

    Which is ironic, when at the same time they give the Acura Crossover such terrible scores.

  33. Larry D. Says:

    Re our discussion yesterday about the Genesis 80, I checked it out on the web.

    There were versions with the 5.0 lt engine, I assume it has plenty of power, that you can have for $56k, or the cost of a 6 cyl E 350 or so.

    But when I looked at photos of the interior, I was really dissapointed. This is not a luxury car. Near luxury at best. There is not even one square inch of wood veneer. Ridiculous in a car that aspires to be a Merc and Bmw and Audi and Lexus killer. Cheap industrial interior, with hopefully real aluminum accents (in low and mid-priced Hyundais and Kias, these are actually fake, silver plastics. Very phony and Disgusting to me. But aluminum does not cut it.

    Luxury car makers should take a lesson from the Brits, not in the engine department, but in the glorious interiors Jags of the past used to have (now only the top of the line Jags have them).

    But again, this 80 year old fellow who had a Lacrosse and test drove an E class and an Impala and a G80 and a new lacrosse and chose the G 80. I assume he is one of these people who would not even consider buying a certified used car with low miles and a warranty, instead of a much cheaper car new, for the same $. He missed great opportunities. he could have got an LS460 or even an LS460h ( the $100,000+ new car can be had for as little as $25,000 used and in great shape, and will probably be more reliable than a new Lacrosse, G 80 or Impala)

    Worship the Goddess of Depreciation! There is nothing divine about the new car smell. Actually, some people I know consider buying a new car one of the stupidest (economic) decisions one can make, assuming the model is not available as used or certified used.

  34. Larry D. Says:

    30 Correction The LS460 hubrid was named the LS600h. Probably to better swallow its six-figure price new.

  35. Larry D. Says:

    28 I’d rather have a used Tesla S, a far superior car, for the same $, low miles, and immediate delivery as a bonus.

  36. Kit Gerhart Says:

    29 The RDX was 77 overall, and 80 “road test” score. Putting the RDX, and the Avalon and Accord hybrids side by side on the web site, the RDX came out poorly on “displays and controls,” and not too good on ride or cargo room, compared to their direct competitors.

  37. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The G80 base price, with leather, a V-6, all of the safety gadgets, and most of the “convenience” gadgets, is $20K less expensive than a similarly equipped E-Class with a turbo 4. For the extra $20K you get some wood, and a three pointed star. Yeah, with the V-8, the Genesis is no longer much of a bargain.

    I certainly agree that used cars are a much better buy, and if I wanted an expensive European car, that is what I’d buy.

    As far as my 80 year old friend who bought the G80, he wanted the simple controls, didn’t want a turbo engine, didn’t care about the “prestige” of the brand, and didn’t care about wood on the dash, or other “luxury” trappings.

  38. Larry D. Says:

    33 The G 80 and the E are apples and oranges. You don’t just get “some wood” in the E. You get a gorgeous interior with a ton of wood. If you don’t mind the G 80, you can get an Avalon or an Impala or even a Chrysler 300 which has RWD and looks FAR better than the G 80.

    There is a reason why, by your own numbers, sales of the G 80 have tanked.

    Its exterior styling is rather poor too.

  39. Kit Gerhart Says:

    34 I wouldn’t buy a G80, but I understand why my friend bought one, for the simple, intuitive controls, if nothing else. As far as the G80 and E-Class being apples and oranges, how so? Yeah, the Benz has a nicer interior, but the cars are similar size and cabin space, have similar performance, and they are both rear drive/AWD.

    Actually, my most likely next car will be a Camry hybrid, if I convince myself that my old van can completely replace the Prius for carrying stuff, but I’d check out the Accord hybrid. If I were buying a new, medium-large rear drive car, it would quite likely be a 300. I like the looks of it too, even though it has been around for a very long time. The V6 has adequate power, and with the 5.7 V8, it has serious performance, at a relative bargain price. Also, Chrysler has about the best infotainment system on the market, as far as being easy to see, and easy to learn.

  40. Kit Gerhart Says:

    34 To me, the G80 isn’t ugly, but it is certainly generic in appearance.

  41. Chuck Grenci Says:

    I think I would characterize the G-80 as stoic or a little on the stogie side. Functionally it is pretty much on-par with the competition but when you buy a luxury car you tend to want a little more bling inside and out. JMO

    No joy in my opinion at the Japanese Grand Prix; some nice racing mid pack but another runaway victory to the silver arrows. Championship more or less a forlorn conclusion (but still excited about the next race in the U.S. in Austin).

  42. Kit Gerhart Says:

    37. I happened to wake up a little before 1:00, so I watched the start of the race. As always, the start was exciting, with Vettel picking up several places early. He seems to be too impatient, though, and it keeps getting him in trouble, as happened again in Japan. Those Red Bull chassis, and drivers must be really good. Everyone says the Renault engines are way down on power, compared to Merc and Ferrari, but RB is always in the thick of it. I bet Ricciardo is really hoping the Renault “home team” gets it together for next year.

  43. Chuck Grenci Says:

    38, I’m wondering who is calling the shots (strategy) for Ferrari; they seem to do the wrong thing (just about all of the time). The Red Bulls are right up there, and as you say down on power; The ‘Mercs’ are good (and lucky, but when you prepare for success you get lucky) and they are doing the best job. Pretty good racing in mid pack but F1 needs that (kind) of racing upfront.

  44. Larry D. Says:

    Among the cars around here this weekend

    1. A ton of 3-door and 5-door Civics. They are bigger than ever, almost the size of Accords in the early 90s, and bigger than the original Accord in the 70s, but that is fine. if you don’t worry about passive safety and want an old Civic, get the Honda Fit. It is the real successor to those Civics, but much taller, with a reasonable seating position, just not as sporty or fun as the old civics.

    The new Civics are a smash hit, after one or two not memorable models. They dominate the sales, and if, as you should, you omit fleet sales, which they don’t do, THEY and not the Camry are the best selling cars in the US.

    In fact, I just realized that there are so few, if any, new Corollas where I live, that I really do not know what the latest Corolla looks like! I saw two Prius Vs today, one near my place and one while driving, and NO new Corollas!

    I also saw a couple Lexi with the new grille. On the ES 350 or whatever they call it now, it was smaller and it actually looked OK. The rest of the car had fine, smooth exterior styling. I was driving and could not see the interior. And of course I probably would hate how it drives, as with the LS.

    The RX had a bigger (much bigger) spindle grille but if they made it smaller it would also look good. The rest of it, in shiny black and chromes, looked good.

  45. Kit Gerhart Says:

    40 The Corolla sedan has been the same since 2013 or so, and is not nearly as “stylish” as the new Civic. The Corolla 5-door is new in the U.S., and is a replacement for the Scion iM.

    I see a lot of the new Civics here in Florida, all 3 body styles, considering the new one is only in its 3rd model year.

  46. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Corolla has been selling around 300K/year in the U.S., and is on track to do so this year. Apparently the appearance is so forgetable that we just don’t “see” them.

  47. Larry D. Says:

    I’d guess more like 250k units for 2018, many of them deeply discounted to the Hertz and Enterprise fleets.

    I see plenty of awful looking Tauruses (Tauri) with the catfish look, probably grad students from india get them for less than $1,000 or they just have no taste. One of them yesterday had a pair of shoes (at least one) behind the rear seats, on the shelf next to the rear windshield, obstructing the view. Very imaginative location for a pair of shoes. Go figure.

    Honda does not do fleets, although I have seen a Civic Zipcar or two.

  48. Kit Gerhart Says:

    43 I see some of those Tauri, and the Sable version too. The Sable was a little less “full oval,” having a squared off rear window. They must have held up fairly well, or be cheap to fix, because the newest ones are almost 20 years old.

  49. Larry D. Says:

    Back to the EV batteries worries, I forgot the evidence given in this forum by Vin van Acker, he said that in the NL Tesla S’s are used as Taxis (which is a huge feat in the first place, to replace the omnipresent merc E class diesels that dominate taxis in Europe).

    Taxis do 100,000s of KM every year. My own driver claims she did 4 million KM with her 90s 3 liter Merc Diesel which she is looking to replace now. Over 20 years, this means 200,000 KM /year!!

    A Tesla S in the NL must do at least 50,000 KM a year. By now their batteries must have held up excellent, given both the number of Tesla Taxis AND the ton of miles they do every year.

  50. Larry D. Says:

    In the US there is a ton of Prius Taxis. OF course they pass none of the MPG savings to the customers. I remember taking one in Wash. DC as early as 2010, I sat in the front (thhe prior Prius model had a terrible head room in the back) and the driver told me he was averaging 50 MPG. Their batteries must have held up well, or the replacement cost is minor.

    A Prius or even a Prius C could make a good taxi in a big city with lots of traffic. A Prius V would make a good airport taxi.

    Using tesla Ss as taxis was a daring move, but they had incentive, the $8 a gallon gas in the NL.