AD #2548 – Tesla Opens 1st V3 Supercharger, Clash Over Fuel Economy, Why Carmakers Are Leaving Auto Shows

March 8th, 2019 at 11:39am

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Listen to “AD #2548 – Tesla Opens 1st V3 Supercharger, Clash Over Fuel Economy, Why Carmakers Are Leaving Auto Shows” on Spreaker.

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Runtime: 8:16

0:23 OEMs & Environmentalists Clash Over Fuel Economy
1:39 Clever Solution for More Charging Stations
2:49 Tesla Opens 1st V3 Supercharger
3:42 Electronic Parking Brakes Grow in Popularity
4:35 Protecting Passengers in Autonomous Vehicles
5:29 Why Automakers Are Abandoning Auto Shows

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56 Comments to “AD #2548 – Tesla Opens 1st V3 Supercharger, Clash Over Fuel Economy, Why Carmakers Are Leaving Auto Shows”

  1. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I would think those extremely high charge rates would not be good for batteries. Even charge rates that charge my R/C airplane batteries in a half hour make the batteries warm, and the batteries don’t last very long. Presumably, the car chargers would charge the batteries to a less “full” state than I do my batteries, but still….

  2. Buzzerd Says:

    I watched most of the Corvette show, was decent buuuuut I call total bullshit when the panel starts talking about GM and wages and how they ” can’t ” afford to pay the wages…. and how much was GM’s profit last year????? almost 11 BILLION!
    Just curious, how much to t.v. show hosts make there? Maybe autoline could save tons by moving production to Mexico.

  3. GEORGE RICCI Says:

    Buzzerd. Tell my why an auto assembly worker should make (total compensation – salary, medical, dental, vacation, pension, etc.) more than carpenter, electrician, plumber, etc?

  4. Buzzerd Says:

    @3, they don’t where I live.

  5. Buzzerd Says:

    A union tradesman will make roughly the same as an assembly worker in Ontario.

  6. Buzzerd Says:

    Also, the comment was ” they can’t afford” nonsense, they are paying those wages now for many of the plants and made- what was that number again- 11 BILLION!, so they can but it’s never enough is it.
    Lets look at two other companies, Sam’s Club and Costco. One of those companies pays decent wages, good working conditions and is loved by the public and amazingly makes lots of money. The other has crap pay, working conditions…. and loved isn’t the word many would use.
    It’s possible to have both.

  7. Brett Cammack Says:

    I always find it unseemly when people find fault others for earning too much in honest labor while adoring billionaires and “captains of industry” like Bezos and such.

  8. Cycles Says:

    1- The peak charge rates are not seen throughout the charge. New Tesla EVs start to taper down from ~115kw or so at 50% SOC. I saw a charge rate graph for a Model 3 on V3 supercharger and it only had 250kw up to about 20% SOC before the taper began. Also, note that the RC packs don’t have thermal management. Tesla cars and many other EVs do have thermal management (some do not) to keep the batteries cool during charging. Finally, yes Tesla owners are trained by the cars that high SOC is not good for the life of the battery. Owners typically have their top charge % set to 80 or 90 % and only charge to 100% for long trips.

  9. ChuckGrenci Says:

    Ar first I thought what a great idea to use light poles to use for charging but then I thought, New York City ( as well as other nebulous places) and thought theft or vandalism might be a major problem. At a dedicated charge station the charger is hard wired and a lot easier to oversee surveillance.

  10. GEORGE RICCI Says:

    Buzzerd. The key word in your response is “union”. How many times do we have to see companies go bankrupt when a unions get so powerful that it can dictate to company how to run its business and can forced companies to make programs like the “Jobs Bank” that make it impossible to survive an economic downturns.

  11. Larry D. Says:

    Disappointed to not see one word today about the currently dismal state of US Car&Light truck inventories, with 4,000,000 vehicles sitting on their fat posteriors wasting their makers’ and dealer’s capital and producing nothing, but having expenses instead. Their value is $140,000,000,000, which makes sense ($35,000 average is also the current average transaction price). This is GROSS mismanagement and incompetence by most automakers and their ‘chief economists’ and ‘forecasters’. I am glad I do not directly own any Automaker shares, but my 401k mutual funds probably do.

    Do a one-line calculation just for the return of this $140,000,000,000 the makers and dealers are missing. If you do it right, you will never again claim that nonsense “60 days inventory is ideal”. Toyota became filthy rich by doing very well with 20 and 40 days. So did Subaru, with its 100 months or so of continuous record sales, and other, SUCCESSFUL automakers.

  12. Albemarle Says:

    In the UK where the light pole charging has been tried, EVs come with just charge cords. Public chargers don’t have cords. So the light pole socket isn’t just 240v, it’s the output from the EVSE, a much tidier solution. The cord locks to the light pole so is more secure too.

  13. Lambo2015 Says:

    If I were to buy an EV I would get something with enough range to reach my daily driving needs. Then I would buy a very small trailer place a generator on it and hook it to the car for any long trips and charge while driving if possible or when ever/where ever I need to charge and not worry about finding a charging station. No more range anxiety and no need to have a huge battery to get an extended range that I don’t need.

  14. Larry D. Says:

    11 PS what would be really informative would be to analyze the inventory horror story in more detail, and tell us, which segment has the most terrible inventories, is it cars (most would guess it is) or SUV/crossovers or Pickups? And if possible, which specific models are the biggest losers? We might be surprised by the results.

    (I used to have access to the Automotive news detailed monthly inventory data but recently it seems it does not accept my organization’s multiple subscriptions.)

  15. GEORGE RICCI Says:

    13. Just buy a hybrid and you will not have to think like a Redneck!

  16. PHILIP Says:

    Automakers are turning their noses up in the air and ignoring there POTENTIAL customers. The Detroit International Auto Show is now a shell of what it once was. And good luck requesting a sales brochure by mail these days. If they send you anything at all most likely it is a little pamphlet totally lacking the information and details provided by the brochures at the dealership. Consumers need brochures to make comparisons of vehicles before making a purchase. I detest walking into any dealership and make every single decision regarding a new vehicle purchase [make, model, options] before I set foot on the dealer floor.

  17. Kit Gerhart Says:

    8 Thanks for the info. Yeah, the charging of car batteries would be much better “managed” than the charging of hobby batteries. Also, the R/C airplane batteries are much more abusively discharged than car batteries normally would be. It is not uncommon to discharge a battery from near 100% down to maybe 20% in 15 minutes or less. With a car, you would discharge a battery at that rate only very briefly, when doing a 2.9 second 0-60 run with an AWD Model 3, or something like that.

  18. Lambo2015 Says:

    15 Maybe the idea is beyond your ability to understanding the concept, but the problem with a hybrid is you have two systems that you haul around 100% of the time and when it comes to MPG weight is a big contributor. Also with EVs having a larger heavy battery that isn’t needed for 90% of ones driving needs is wasteful. A detachable charger would allow the car to stay light with a cheaper battery and still allow the long range that people desire.

  19. Larry D. Says:

    16 I used to like collecting car brochures, especially for ultra-luxury and exotic cars. The peak must have been in 2009, when my local BMW dealer gave me a ‘brochure’ for the then new 7 series which was a virtual hardcover coffeetable book 100+ pages long.

    That was THEN. Today there is no need to sacrifice 1,000s of trees to make brochures, because even the least computer literate mother-in-law can go to the web and get 100 times more info, and 100% free, and no need to waste time and gas $ to go to the dealer to get today’s lame brochure, IF they have any.

    In fact my local Mercedes dealer has the entire huge manual for the entire E class range, incl AMG, which in my case (2007 and 2008 years) is more than 700 page long, scanned as a high-quality PDF file I can look at at any time, without going to the car and opening the glove compartment to access it.

  20. Kit Gerhart Says:

    13 Are EVs designed to be charged while being driven? If not, they could be, but I haven’t heard about it being done.

    Assuming the car was set up to charge while driving, you would need a fairly big generator, like ~25kw to keep going at highway speed. Such generator sets cost about $10K, and weigh about 1000 pounds.

  21. Drew Says:

    Regarding electric parking brakes, another factor stimulating their growth is adaptive cruise control systems with stop & go capability… they rely on the E brake to safely perform the “stop” function.

    With respect to occupant safety in autonomous cars, I doubt power seat motors can un-recline quick enough to put the occupant in a safe position. As occupants should still be buckled-up (and I doubt state laws will give them any slack… pun intended), the inflatable seat belts there offered by M-B, Ford and Lincoln seem like a natural marriage.

  22. Larry D. Says:

    Electronic parking brakes is an idiotic idea in more ways than one. Besides Sean’s objections, it is 100% stupid to rely on electricity not only for your regular brakes but also for the emergency (parking) brake. What if you have no power? Will the Electronic brake work then?

  23. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The only time I ever use parking brakes is when on a hill steep enough that a manual transmission car might roll in 1st or reverse, and with an automatic, if on a hill is steep enough that it would be abusing the “park” lock in the transmission.

  24. Larry D. Says:

    23 with my manual cars I used the parking brake all the time (every time I parked a car anywhere), for the 40 or so years I owned manual cars. With my auto cars, never (surely no steep hills in MI, and even overseas, while the terrain is quite hilly, I very seldom park on a steep slope.

  25. Lambo2015 Says:

    22 It actuates the pads electronically so they cannot be engaged or released without the proper power. A few other advantages to EPB setups. Manual handbrake levers can lock up the rear wheels quite easily if you’re attempting an emergency stop on anything but dry pavement. EPB mechanisms work with the anti-lock braking system, as the electronics are integrated—and it can even be configured to brake with all four wheels under emergency situations.

    Another safety feature that’s built into most EPB systems is that they include an auto-apply feature: Say the driver steps out of the vehicle, thinking that the brake has already been applied, and the vehicle starts rolling. In that case, the parking brake automatically cinches up—and knows to because it’s tied in with the door switch and seatbelt switches.

    They also release automatically when the vehicle is placed into gear and the accelerator is pressed to prevent a common problem with manuals where people forgot to release them.

    Also hill start can be implemented into that same system to avoid backward rolling on even an automatic transmission.

  26. Drew Says:

    Lambo, you provided great additional info… certainly not “idiotic”.

  27. Lambo2015 Says:

    25 Cont; Oh the EPB also can save as much as 18 lbs and don’t have a cable to get rusted up solid when not used like many manual systems.

  28. Albemarle Says:

    25 Our Bolt, when stopped on a hill in ‘L’ mode, often puts on the electronic brake itself. When you start to go, it takes it off for you. It’s taken me time to appreciate them, but they have many good points.

  29. Kit Gerhart Says:

    To me, the idea of an “emergency” brake became obsolete when cars went to dual systems in about 1968. I needed one once, though, when a brake line rusted through in a 1964 Dodge Dart.

  30. Drew Says:

    Kit, I have a friend who grew up in a hilly part of the country. He learned to use the parking brake and to turn his tires in toward the curb. Although today’s EPB does a great job, old habits still prevail.

  31. Lambo2015 Says:

    20 Yeah maybe that wouldn’t work to charge while driving and only provide recharge wherever you stopped. I’m not even sure how and EV would handle DC power vs AC.

  32. gary susie Says:

    If the worker isn’t paid enough to buy the product he makes than who is going to be the customer? When workers see CEO’S getting $3000 to 10,000 per hour they think maybe they need a piece of the pie too.

  33. w l simpson Says:

    Lamppost plugin doesn’t mention a charger , just a power source

  34. Kit Gerhart Says:

    33 You don’t need a “charger” for low rate charging. What’s needed is in the car.

  35. Kit Gerhart Says:

    30. I learned to turn the tires into the curb, but even though I parallel park sometimes, I rarely need to, because there aren’t any hills in Florida or central Indiana.

  36. Tony Gray Says:

    29. Kit, I had a line go on a 66 Malibu. And the old Powerglide didn’t give much engine braking. Thank heaven for the old cable “emergency” brake.

  37. Kit Gerhart Says:

    36 Luckily, I didn’t need to slow down very quickly, and was only about two miles from home. The Torque Flight in low had pretty good engine braking, but, of course, I needed the “emergency” brake to stop completely.

  38. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I’m looking forward to the start of F1 in a week. A new season is always interesting, with driver changes, etc., but this year we have “power unit” rules changes. That always makes things more interesting. I’m hoping no one team dominates, as Mercedes has the last few years.

  39. WineGeek Gelven Says:

    Sean there is another major reason that the EV’s are not selling is that the dealers are not really trying to sell them. When I go to a dealer and want to see or test drive an EV or a Plug-In the salespeople do everything but throw me out to get me to look at their ICE models.

    There may not be enough chargers agreed, but that is not the only major reason the dealers lack of ability or lack of effort is a major piece of the EV puzzle.

  40. Kit Gerhart Says:

    39 That is true, but also, they still cost too much. A Chevy Bolt would make a great commuter car for a lot of people, but it costs $36K. For those who don’t need as much range, there is the Leaf, but it costs $30K. Except for people who just “like” EVs, a Bolt or Leaf would be a hard sell against a Cruze/Malibu/Sonic or Sentra/Altima for $10-15K less.

  41. ChuckGrenci Says:

    A lot of F1 posturing so far in testing. Nobody has shown what they have yet; have to wait for qualifying next week. Haas is still shooting for the best of the rest. I’m anxiously waiting.

  42. Larry D. Says:

    40 The ugly, fat hatch Bolt, a car much shorter and smaller and of inferior performance to the Model 3, costs 36k? What are they thinking at GM? Either cancel the Bolt altogether or price it so it can sell at least a few units. Instead, they killed the Volt, which has zero range anxiety.

    BTW, both the Bolt and the Model 3 get the same half tax credit of $3,750 for the next few months, and $0 after, since both Tesla and GM have now exceeded 200,000 units of EVs or plug-ins (the Volt counts)

  43. Larry D. Says:

    42 PS forgot to state the obvious to most, but for the few that live in Mars, the Model 3 is now available at $35k, undercutting the much inferior Bolt even in first cost!!!!

  44. Kit Gerhart Says:

    42,43 The Model 3 costs $36K, with “destination and doc” fee. For that price, there is no color choice of the interior, exterior, or wheels. They all match the tires. The Bolt is no doubt discounted by dealers in most locations.

    Yes, we all know that the Model 3 is faster and looks better than the Bolt, and is bigger (on the outside).

  45. Larry D. Says:

    “Engine maker gets $2M federal grant to work with UM, Nissan on improving hybrid car efficiency

    The federal government is giving a California engine manufacturer $2 million to work with the University of Michigan and Nissan on making hybrid vehicles more efficient.
    The U.S. Department of Energy awarded the grant to Achates Power, based in San Diego, to develop a highly-efficient opposed-piston engine, according to a news release”

    The Achates charlatans get to waste $2 million of your hard-earned taxpayer dollars.

    “Now isn’t that special?” as the SNL Churchlady would say.

  46. Kit Gerhart Says:

    It appears that a truck actually moved with an Achates engine, but slowly and noisily.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usmauFigpzk

  47. ChuckGrenci Says:

    Not too much to be gleaned from that video but that maybe it does exist. It looked big (filling the engine bay), and as noted, noisey and slow. It has been years since its promised debut and so far little to show. It will have to be economical to, produce and run, not to mention capable to perform.

  48. Kit Gerhart Says:

    It was so many years with nothing, and now something, barely, it appears. If that was actually the best way to make an IC engine, I really thing GM or Mercedes or Ford, or someone would have latched onto it about 50 years ago.

  49. ChuckGrenci Says:

    I was excited when first exposed to the concept and wished them well but as time went by I detected that perhaps it wasn’t going to be easy. I still think the idea is intriguing and wish them well but the battle will be long and uphill if it takes hold.

  50. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The basic cycle is similar to the “Jimmy” 2-stroke diesels, which turned out to be inefficient and dirty, compared to 4 stroke diesels. The power-to-weight was pretty good, though.

  51. ChuckGrenci Says:

    Looks like one of the features of the Achates is that it is a torque monster but I still fear emissions could be its nemesis. It’s size is also a concern. One video I watched claimed 40% efficiency and room to make it up to 45%; now that is impressive.

  52. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Somehow, I tend to be really skeptical about Achates. Ten years of hype, and almost nothing, so far. The Junkers airplane engine was like that, but it disappeared about, what, 70 years ago. There must be a reason.

  53. ChuckGrenci Says:

    Agree Kit; I think the engine has its place but perhaps not the automobile (truck). Ships, trains maybe and other stationary power applications.

  54. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Some of the huge ship engines are two stroke, probably similar in function to the Detroit Diesel engines. They are not opposed piston, though. I guess the main thing I can say about Archates is, “it will be interesting.”

  55. ChuckGrenci Says:

    I was surfing around and found opposed-piston engines used in multiple boats, ships, military tanks, early US submarines and trains. And I did see your reference to the Junkers airplane engine. Seems NOX was a major pollutant limiter; though I’m thinking hydrocarbons a problem as well.

  56. Kit Gerhart Says:

    All of that, plus you need to cut the power stroke short by opening the exhaust ports before the intake ports, to avoid having the intake charge diluted by the exhaust gases.