AD #2651 – Toyota Supra Impressions, IIHS Crash Tests First Fuel Cell Vehicle, EVs Need Cleaner Electric Grid

August 9th, 2019 at 11:44am

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Runtime: 11:28

0:07 EVs Need Cleaner Electric Grid
2:43 IIHS Crash Tests First Fuel Cell Vehicle
3:23 China Car Sales Down in July
4:26 Toyota Supra Impressions
6:32 Can You Identify This Car?
7:16 Audi Drops A3 Cabriolet
7:54 VW Golf R Goes on Hiatus
8:09 How Ford Is Speeding Up Product Development

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73 Comments to “AD #2651 – Toyota Supra Impressions, IIHS Crash Tests First Fuel Cell Vehicle, EVs Need Cleaner Electric Grid”

  1. Jon M. Says:

    I’ll say Piaggio Vespa 400

  2. David Sprowl Says:

    Autobianchi Bianchina 500 is my guess

  3. David Sprowl Says:

    I kinda heard through the first story that ICE are cleaner than electrics.

  4. Jon M. Says:

    Good guess, David, I’m sure it’s either or other.

  5. Dale Leonard Says:

    Toyota should have offered an optional “Manual” transmission in order to make it a true sports car.

  6. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The Supra is a much different take on a sports car than what I’d consider its most direct competition, low option Corvette and Cayman. Sean, is the Supra quiet at constant speed on the freeway? That could be an advantage it would have over the cars I mentioned.

  7. Kit Gerhart Says:

    5 I agree that they should offer a manual, but the take rate would be low. I think the new Z4 will also be automatic only, but will be available with a turbo four, as well as the six.

  8. Larry D. Says:

    I will not guess what the ugly relics are, nor do I care. Just because an ugly piece of junk is 1000 years old does not make it a Classic.

    The young fellow from Ford, the video segment. WHat a load of.. worthess blah blah blah.

    The Supra. I am sure I will make Shawn’s day, but I really do not care to drive either this excruciatingly ugly, confused styling car, nor the much better looking Z4 toy it shares so much with. Its interior is just as bad, the tyranny of the grays and blacks..

    I have mentioned before but did not explain why: IF The Supra was a true successor of its 80-90s versions, like the NISSAN GT-R, it should have 600 HP and Cost $110,000, and NOT have anything to do with any BMW, it should be Toyota’s flagship SUPERCAR (sports car). Now they call it “Supra” but it is anything but.

    Also, Imagine GM going to BMW or Merc or Audi to design the next Corvette. LAUGHABLE.

    Out of time. More later.

  9. Danny Turnpaugh Says:

    Some kind of a Simca is my guess

  10. Lew Frank Says:

    I recall seeing Simca which resembles these.
    I have saying for years, costs of EV’s are not as cost effective as they have been telling us.(approx. 85k miles negates most advantages)
    When they can clean up manufacturing process, then I will consider them.

  11. JWH Says:

    AVL Segment – Enjoyed the segment on EV energy by AVL. I’ve found that quite often people only look at the direct energy cost they are spending, & the direct pollutants they believe their electric vehicle is emitting. Totally agree & have been saying we always need to look at the total energy costs. Especially if their electricity is generated by “beautiful clean coal”.

    Sean – Had to laugh at your comment regarding ingress/egress into the Supra. I do believe you’re substantially younger than I am, & I still crawl into 2016 Corvette on a regular basis during good weather.

    5 & 7 – While I enjoy manual transmissions & have had many over the years. In the old days manual transmissions had much better performance than automatics. I did go automatic on the 2016 Corvette – Faster than the manual & my wife does not do manuals (although she has not driven Corvette in the 3 1/2 years it’s been in the garage}.

  12. Kit Gerhart Says:

    8 “the tyranny of the grays and blacks..”

    Yeah, I get tired of that too. It turns out that you can order a Supra with a red interior, but only in the “launch edition” that starts at about $56K.

    They went to BMW because they wanted the car to have an inline six, like earlier Supras, and BMW has the best inline sixes out there. I agree, though, that this car makes little sense, for either Toyota or BMW.

  13. Albemarle Says:

    Interesting that there is so much concern about recycling the lithium ion battery which is very new on the automotive market and in so few cars.

    What’s the worst that can happen? Put in a landfill? We landfill almost everything else. Most tires are still burned as fuel. Even though tires have been around for probably 150 years, it’s only in the last 30 we have done anything with them. But no one is questioning the use of tires in vehicles.

    Change is scary. I have faith that as a society we will solve the end of life problem with batteries; at least as effectively as we have with tires, and we’re happy with that.

  14. rick bradner Says:

    cars are Autobianchi Bianchina Trasformabile; basically a rebodied Fiat Cinquecento _

  15. Albemarle Says:

    Can’t help feeling that the new C8 Corvette will make the new Supra’s life difficult, particularly with the prices being so close. Haven’t sat or driven either but based on reading, I’d take the Corvette.

  16. Kit Gerhart Says:

    11 I recently found that the coal power plants are only about 37% efficient, much worse than I realized, and that is before you add the loss of the transformers, transmission lines, and the rest of the power grid.

    Of course, the actual environmental impact of driving an EV depends on where your power comes from. In Indiana, 80% of the power is still from coal, but, of course, a lot of power crosses state lines, and Indiana probably gets some power from Illinois, where more than half the power is nuclear.

  17. Kit Gerhart Says:

    15 I agree. If you want that very nice BMW engine, but in a better package, you can get an M240i, at least for now, and you can even get a manual transmission if so inclined.

  18. George Ricci Says:

    The standard crash test that IIHS performed on the Hyundai Nexo does NOT show that hydrogen fuel vehicles are safe. The storage tanks of hydrogen (10,000 psi) are located in the center tunnel and behind rear seat. In order to say that hydrogen fuel vehicles are just as safe as other cars you would have do a number of crashes on the side and rear of the car. Only one of IIHS tests was side impact at only 50 km/h (31.1 mi/h). No rear impact tests were done.

    What happens in the real world when other vehicles are involved and a fire breaks out? I certainly do not what to be seating next to or in one of the other cars in the accident to a flammable fuel that’s at 10,000 psi! If that explodes all you will have left is a hole in the ground.

  19. ChuckGrenci Says:

    I was wondering how many miles it would take an ICE, non hybrid to achieve that break-even point mentioned for the 48 volt hybrid. It surely isn’t worth the difference between the BEV and hybrid (at least currently).

    And my take on the Supra remains; pretty ugly in my mind (capable or not).

  20. Bill Warner Says:

    The Supra is a design (styling) nightmare.

    The Italian cars are Fiat Bianchinas.

    I really enjoy your show.

  21. Kit Gerhart Says:

    19 From what I have seen of mild hybrids, they don’t do very much. They didn’t when GM first sold them 15-20 years ago, and they don’t now. The Ram with the 5.7 mild hybrid only ties the Silverado V8 mpg, both in EPA numbers, and CR’s tests.

  22. Wim van Acker Says:

    @3, 4, 11, 16, 19: “break even CO2 emission after 85,000 miles” means EVs are not a great solution for the CO2 emission part of the problem. Maybe a partial solution for the crude oil consumption part of the problem since the energy source is moved from 100% crude oil sourced to a mix of coal, natural gas, uranium, hydro and to a small extent bio and wind.

    On a separate note to the Autoline team: while mentioning the emissions of coal fired plants you showed a large plant with a lot of smoke to show how dirty those are. Just so you know: what looks like smoke is water vapor from the cooling towers (the thick diabolic structures). The smoke stacks are the thin tall ones, with no visible emissions. Lots of invisible emissions, though, such as CO2, SOx, mercury etc. So I am not disputing the emissions of coal fired power plants, just think it is misleading to show large volumes of clean water vapor to make the point.

  23. Bob Wilson Says:

    The important EV “green” is in my wallet. We have had three plug-ins, BMW i3-REx, Prius Prime, and Tesla Model 3. In electric mode, all three cars run about 1/3d or better the cost of gas over the same miles. We still have the BMW i3-REx and Tesla Model 3 but the Prime had a half-speed, AC charger and no fast DC charger port.

    NOx, ozone, and engine particulates sting our eyes and coughs our lungs, especially at intersections. On bad air days, it drives kids indoors which EVs don’t do. Did Ewe Grebe study that too?

  24. Larry D. Says:

    22 The cost of owning and using a car is NOT just the fuel cost. In fact for many people, fuel cost is the smallest of the cost components. Definitely true of me, who drives each of my cars less than 5,000 miles a year.

    No matter how many times you keep mentioning it, I will never be convinced that your several EVs save you any $ AT ALL. In fact, by selling your previous one at a young age and taking a $11,000 depreciation hit, cheaper fuel will never make you recover just that one loss.

    Trust me 100%, if EVs and Hybrids would save me any $, I would drive two of them instead of my two Merc Diesels (which I bought for safety primarily, they are not that fuel efficient, comparatively speaking).

    Why aren’t you frank with yourself and admit that you bought these vehicles because you just LIKED them. If you wanted to save $, you would have bought totally different vehicles, and most likely neither BEVs nor PLug-ins, not even Hybrids.

  25. Wim van Acker Says:

    @24: ??? I do not own electric vehicles and I have literally never said that EVs are saving me money.

  26. Kit Gerhart Says:

    23 Just insurance on two cars, with high deductible collision, costs more than twice what I spend on gas, never mind the thousands of dollars a year depreciation on my late model cars.

    I readily admit that I don’t buy cars to save money. I buy them because i like them. I like getting high mpg, though, “on general principals,” and high mpg provides convenience, in few stops at gas stations.

  27. Larry D. Says:

    24 My US insurance without collision is about $800 a year. Overseas, I think I get a much better deal on the same vehicle, $135 for 3 months including free road service (very good, I used it this May) and free windshield replacement at home ( used it last year) and when I store it, I pay another $130 or so for 9 months but it also includes home insurance for $100k.

    Insurance rates in the US should really be much lower for owners who do few miles a year and have several cars. Discourages having a car collection that you can use daily.

    In my case I advised my parents to buy the Civic Hatch 1991 mainly for the fuel economy (plus it was a cool cute design that drove well around town), but the Merc Diesel first for safety and second (chose the diesel) to take advantage of the much lower diesel vs gas prices overseas.

  28. ChuckGrenci Says:

    I found an interesting youtube on fuel cell versus H2 ICE; it’s 38 minutes but I learned a lot. Some may be familiar with Auto Expert TV. If you want the link: It might be worth your while.

  29. Kit Gerhart Says:

    25 Even with declared mileage, and multiple cars with one driver, it costs almost as much per car, as the same total miles with only one car. I’ve checked different companies to see if it is different with some companies for people like me, but there isn’t much difference. I’m getting a really bad deal, but there’s not much I can do about it, given that I want “too many” cars. It helps a little, not having collision on the older cars.

    26 I’ll watch it later. It should be interesting. Without seeing it yet, I’d guess that the H2 fuel cell is twice as efficient as the H2 ICE, but a whole lot more expensive, still needing a fairly big battery to provide instantaneous power for acceleration, hill climbing, etc.

  30. Kit Gerhart Says:

    25 Insurance would be about $900/year for my Camry, even without collision and comp, with the Florida registration. Florida must be more dangerous than up north. The same coverage is cheaper in Indiana, but I’m officially a Florida resident, and have a Florida license.

  31. Kit Gerhart Says:

    25. I know you tend to be secretive, but what country is “overseas”? Spain? Estonia? OK, probably neither, but your posts would be more meaning if we knew.

  32. Larry D. Says:

    25 That’s probably the only thing I have not said. Estonia would not be possible since I swim along the coast twice daily and over there I’d have to wear that inconvenient wetsuit. Spain is closer, but not the one (never been there in fact). It is a member of the EU and the Eurozone. I do have a niece, (daughter of a first cousin) who lives in Barcelona, she moved from London, I’d not have done that, despite how interesting Barc may be.

  33. Larry D. Says:

    27 I noticed that recently when I had both the 740iL and the 2007 Bluetec, my insurance doubled even though I told them my miles stayed the same. I thought it was very unfair, but most insurance aspects are. Careful and conscientious drivers pay for the uninsured and for those who get into expensive accidents and repairs. The one overseas was the opposite, a pleasant surprise, was told it would be very expensive, $200 a month, but instead it was 135 (euros, not $) for 3 months. I couldn;t believe it.

  34. Kit Gerhart Says:

    30 You haven’t directly said your university, or if so, I missed it, but you have given it away a time or two. I’ll look at a map for ideas about where “overseas” might be. Maybe Greece. The water would be warmer there than many coastal areas in the EU.

  35. Piero B Says:

    Autobianchi Bianchina Trasformabile Special

  36. Kit Gerhart Says:

    31 I experience the same thing. I can drive 15000 miles with one car or four, and the liability insurance costs almost four times as much if the miles are spread over four cars. It is reasonable for comp to be “by car,” but not liability.

  37. Albemarle Says:

    18 A fire with a gas ICE is often much worse than with a high pressure fuel like hydrogen or propane. Characteristically they develop a hole in the tank and the gas escapes, igniting as it leaves. Massive flame thrower but not nearly as likely to explode as a regular gas fuel tank where the flame gets in the tank and causes the explosion. Frankly both would be a nightmare, but the gasoline car has a lot more energy on board to burn.

  38. Kit Gerhart Says:

    34 A fire from a punctured 10,000 psi hydrogen tank would be over quickly, at least the fire from the hydrogen itself.

    It continues to impress me how much energy is in a gallon of gasoline, enough to move a 3300 pound car 50 miles at 60 mph.

  39. Jack Says:

    The new Toyota Supra is one of the butt ugliest new car in years. I would not want be seen in this ugly car. Toyota could do much better than this.

  40. Larry D. Says:

    32 Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, French Riviera, Monaco, Malta, some coastal Balkan EU members on the Euro, even Cyprus although some classify it with Asia, would be possibilities. I assume by my U you mean grad school in the NE, I may have hinted at it once or twice.

  41. Larry D. Says:

    33 One consolation is that it is very easy to store a car and still have some minimum insurance. When my car is in the locked garage next to my condo and I am overseas, I only pay $10 a month US insurance. I have gone back and forth for almost 30 years now, with full insurance Sept-May (usually) and that $10 a month in the summer.

    I guess one could do the same if one has a garageful of cars, have all of them on that cheap $10 a month except one, and rotate them every month or two.

  42. Bob Wilson Says:

    #23 – Correct, “you just LIKED them.” So I don’t worry about folks driving the pickup, luxury, or sports car as there is a lot to be said for liking one’s ride. But there is a difference between capital and operational money.

    Capital money is spent once but operational money is paid in proportion to use. So when we go on a trip, there is a cost per mile that bleeds the money needed for meals, rooms, and admission fees. The ability to use that capital resource is dependent upon what it costs to use it.

    The most expensive capital purchase is the one that is not used.

  43. Larry D. Says:

    15 absolutely. The Mid-engine 6 lt v8 Vette cheaper than this ugly 6 Supra? It will obliterate it in sales.

  44. Larry D. Says:

    38 if you want to talk about cost, you should compare total life cycle costs for each vehicle, it is not that hard to do. Purchase price, operating costs and insurance, maintenance and repairs, and deduct the resale value, and make sure you convert every amount in $ of the same year, otherwise it is apples vs oranges.

  45. Kit Gerhart Says:

    37 In both FL and IN, you have to keep liability insurance on un-used cars, or turn in the license plate, and then buy a new plate a few months later when its time to use the car. It sounds like MI is not that way.

  46. Larry D. Says:

    41 both in MI and in a different way here also, I am able to just change the coverage for my car from full driving to storage, and pay much less in insurance.

  47. Larry D. Says:

    Lengthy article about Mahindra’s intentions in MI from interviews of its US execs. They have a 1 in 6 chance (for lack of more info) of getting the USPS contract. They say they will build vehicles in the US even if they lose the contract, but don’t say which specific products of theirs they think would have a chance to appeal to US buyers.

  48. JWH Says:

    33, 41 – Insurance – Kit – You’re correct on Michigan not requiring liability on sleeping vehicles. Based on weather, the Corvette goes to sleep normally in November & comes out of hibernation late March. We carry comprehensive which includes fire & theft during the winter.

    When I had 4 bikes, I always groused about having to pay full liability rates on each of them since it was very difficult to ride more than one at a time. Ironically they were insured throughout the winter since insurance carrier calculated minimal usage during winter months into the rate & there was no real savings by dropping winter coverage.

    I believe you’re from Kokomo area – By any chance did you attend GMI?

  49. groingo Says:

    Supra, There comes a point where too much of one thing pushes it into Funky Junky territory….ten scoops (most non functional) is the case in point, looks like a Hot Wheel, then there is the engine…..please….should have been a V8 at least if not for the sound alone.

  50. Kit Gerhart Says:

    44 I wish FL and IN would allow comp only on hibernating vehicles, but they don’t. If you have a plate, you need liability ins.

    I knew GMI people,but I attended Purdue, about 45 miles west of Kokomo.

  51. Kit Gerhart Says:

    44 I think my bike insurance in Indiana assumes no winter use like yours did. It’s cheap, about $100/year for two bikes, for liability and comp. They are cheap bikes, or the comp would cost more.

  52. Kit Gerhart Says:

    43 The article didn’t mention it, but maybe Mahindra are still considering selling that little pickup truck. If it’s an actual small truck, the size of an S10 or old Ranger, and if it’s cheap enough, it might sell. To keep the price down, they could forget the diesel, and maybe use GM 2.5 fours like in their proposed mail truck.

  53. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I just read a Road and Track test of the Supra, and they really liked it, even the looks. Their car had the color scheme of my Corvette, white with red interior, but it still didn’t look very good to me in the pictures. Just the idea of all the fake vents is a turn off to me.

    In their test, though, it performed very well, matching the lap times of a BMW M4, and a pre-turbo Cayman S on the Lime Rock track. They got 3.8 seconds 0-60.

  54. Larry D. Says:

    47 Did that thing ever pass US safety reqs? I think it is way too low-quality to make it in the US market. In Europe, there is a very cheap Renault made in Romania called the “Dacia”, incl the suv “Duster”. The Mahindra should be even less than the Dacia in the quality dept.

  55. Larry D. Says:

    48 I believe it did not, and did not even try to, and the excuse was that it would be used only on the farm. As if it would never need to go to town! The whole thing was really absurd. I wonder if they even do a serious market survey to see what demand, if any, was for that kind of thing.

  56. Larry D. Says:

    48 Toyota must have wined them and dined them in the French Riviera or Monaco, if they liked the looks too. Did they say what wine they had?

  57. Kit Gerhart Says:

    51 They didn’t say what kind of wine, but yeah, I don’t see how anyone could like the way it looks, no matter how well it may drive.

  58. Kit Gerhart Says:

    49 I think it passed US safety regs, barely, but would be too crude to sell anywhere in the world that new pickups are sold. I suspect nearly all trucks in most “3rd world” countries are brought there used from somewhere else.

    Also, its gutless 4 cylinder diesel got EPA rated at 19/21 mpg, worse highway, and barely better city than a “Detroit Three” monster truck with a gas V8.

  59. Larry D. Says:

    A 1939 Porsche with A 1.0 lt Beetle engine and worn out seats. Still made 89 MPH when most cars made 60

  60. Larry D. Says:

    And this is the guy who invented Porsche (as well as the VW Beetle), “Professor” Ferry Porsche was actually an Austrian, his Phd was an honorary one, and I don’t think he ever was an actual prof.

    Still, after he died in 1975, In 1996, he was inducted into the International Motorsports Hall of Fame, and in 1999 posthumously won the award of Car Engineer of the Century.

  61. Kit Gerhart Says:

    54 It can be yours, if you are the highest bidder next Saturday.

  62. Larry D. Says:

    56 Sotheby’s hasn’t published an auction estimate, but some reports say this Porsche, essentially in its original condition, is expected to go for as much as $20 million.

    Even if I wanted this minimalist thing, I sure could not afford it, nor (I estimate) anybody in this forum.

    I will console myself with a recent 911 turbo cabrio

  63. Larry D. Says:

    I’d think for as significant a car as the first Porsche ever, the company who sold 1 million 911s at a $20k profit each (2018 $) so $20 billion profits from 911s alone, could easily afford the $20 mill and buy it and display it in its own museum.

  64. Kit Gerhart Says:

    58 Yeah, that car belongs in the Porsche museum, and with the money they are making selling 911s, and especially selling $90K Cayennes, they could afford to buy it.

  65. ChuckGrenci Says:

    First reported C8 crash, link, (first three minutes):
    No real details, just some conjecture. Don’t bother with the rest of video; it is just the vlog of his build choices. I wouldn’t bother.

  66. Larry D. Says:

    Now if you have that $20 mill, here is an alternative way to spend it (can’t afford it new, but will get you a used one). Oprah, Spielberg, Bill Gates and many other household names got one of these:

  67. Larry D. Says:

    61 and since you don’t need it all the time, why not rent it, on average it costs a mere $9k /hour. Divided by the 8 passengers it is barely $1k/hr! For special occasions.

  68. Kit Gerhart Says:

    61 There might be some good deals on low mileage 737 Max 10s, for those who need extra space to walk around in their airplane.

  69. Larry D. Says:

    Affordable Future Arrives in the UK, VERY competitively priced

    “£37,340 – not that much more money than a top-spec Hyundai Kona EV, VW e-Golf or Nissan Leaf. But usefully cheaper than the next Model 3 up, the £46,340 dual-motor ‘Long Range’.”

    Oh, and still 5.6″ 0 to 60. Which a few years ago only flagship cars could make.

  70. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The Supra does 0-60 in 3.8 seconds.

  71. Larry D. Says:

    70 the Supra is not a BEV, its rear seat is a joke, and I bet will cost twice what the 3 base model will cost. Oh, and it’s butt-ugly.

  72. Larry D. Says:

    70 If you want to compare the Supra to a Tesla, the only car in this segment is the Roadster, and the new one has 0-60 in HALF the time the new Supra does it.

    The topic was the base model 3. I expect NOBODY who wants a Model 3 to test drive the Supra to compare. Apples and Oranges.

    Top Gear correctly compared the base model 3 to the other BEVs one can buy at this price, and the 3 is far superior to all of them. FAR Superior.

    It will sell well, and as the sypercharger network in the UK expands, even better.

    BEVS have significant privileges in Europe that they do not have in the US.

    Big ICE cars like Bentleys have to pay $150 every time they enter Brussels, if I remember well what I was told. Downtown London has tolls of 25 pounds every time you enter it in an ICE. etc etc. top free parking spots for BEVS etc.

  73. Kit Gerhart Says:

    71 It doesn’t have a back seat, and yes, it’s ugly. It costs £52,695 in the UK.