AD #2653 – Porsche Unveils Cayenne Plug-In, New Challenger to Arrive In 2023, Chinese Startup NIO In Big Trouble

August 13th, 2019 at 11:44am

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Runtime: 6:35

0:07 Global Plug-In Hybrid Sales Stall
0:48 Chinese Startup NIO In Big Trouble
1:13 PSA & Dongfeng Slash Workforce
1:52 Porsche Unveils Cayenne Plug-In
3:08 Platinum Suppliers Want to Develop New EV Battery
4:41 CSP Supplies Ford with Composite Dashboard
5:10 Roadkill Nights Attracts Huge Crowd
5:36 New Challenger to Arrive In 2023

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53 Comments to “AD #2653 – Porsche Unveils Cayenne Plug-In, New Challenger to Arrive In 2023, Chinese Startup NIO In Big Trouble”

  1. Kit Gerhart Says:

    A plug-in hybrid that deserves to sell well, but doesn’t, is the Chrysler Pacifica. It gets almost 50% better mpg than the regular version in mix in mixed driving, even if you never plug it in.

  2. Larry D. Says:

    Would not buy a Cayenne or its silly “Coupe” version anyway, but on top of this, its plug-in EPA range of only 16 miles (make it 10 in the winter) is ridiculously small. This is also the case of far more attractive and upscale plug-ins from the Luxury German makers which have equally tiny EV ranges.

    In my case, I would need 42+20 about 60 mile range to do my round trip (plus local driving) downtown on electricity from my summer home.

    In the US, from my current home, I would still do the weekday commute etc on pure electricity even with a 16 mile range, but not on weekend shopping tours, or when invited by friends 20 and 30 miles away one way.

  3. Larry D. Says:

    1 I need a big van even less than I need a fat SUV. Your link gives the van a 32 mile electric only range? (20 in the winter). Not good enough for most drivers, who don’t want to use any gas in daily driving (except long trips)

  4. MikeShipley Says:

    How about a variant of the Challenger badged as a Chrysler. Luxury it up á la Lincoln Mark VIII. Bring back the Conquest or Cordoba name. New front and rear fascia, deluxe interior (available in TAN).

  5. Kit Gerhart Says:

    3 The big virtue of the Pacifica hybrid is not that it will go a few miles on plug-in power, but that it gets much better mpg than its competition from Toyota and Honda, and the non-hybrid Pacifica, even if never plugged in.

    Yeah, not everyone needs a big vehicle, be it a van, an SUV, or a pickup truck.

  6. Larry D. Says:

    That the French PSA surrendered and packed its stuff from China and went home is no surprise to those of us that remember that PSA did exactly the same thing in the US market in the 90s, after failing (yes, the word is failing. let’s cut the Political Correctness) to operate even remotely profitably in the US.

    What is surprising is that in China it had the help of a major Automaker, DONG FENG (=Eastern Wind for you Chinese Challenged), and it still failed and surrendered like the good Frenchmen they are (could not resist)

    As for the bankruptcy of that one Chinese company, are you serious? there are 4,000 EV makers in CHina, maybe close to 5,000, and I expect 4,980 of them to go broke or be bought by others, and only a handful to prevail.

    Sean, you make a huge deal of the drop in China sales, it is perfectly normal and expected not only after the stratospheric peaks of a few years ago, but ALSO due to the uncertainty with the tariff situation.

    IF there is a US- CHinese Trade agreement, you can expect China to grow like a ROCKET again soon. Until then, I will take its current 6% growth over that of any large industrial nation, even the hot US Economy.

  7. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The Cayenne plug-in is about extra performance, for those with a lot of spare money. Even the base Cayenne is a bad buy compared to the similar Audi Q7, and the Q7 is no bargain.

  8. Larry D. Says:

    6 Actually I noticed that the big SUVs from the Germans are far cheaper than the corresponding sedans. S class is much more expensive than the GLS, the 7 more than the X5 and even the X7 (which Doug claims to be the best SUV around) and the A8 than the Q7. This may explain (plus their utility and other features buyers need) their high sales numbers vs the sedans.

  9. ChuckGrenci Says:

    The Cayenne is way out of my league but in my eye it is a ‘looker’. Exterior is fairly nice and the interior sure spoke luxury (at least in my mind). For those looking for some performance, panache and the Porsche experience this looks to be their vehicle.

  10. Larry D. Says:

    9 Ι see quite a few 911s on my daily driving and they are really gorgeous, voluptuous and sexy, defintitely a “got to have it” (and drive it!) vehicle. I would not say that for any Cayenne. Too bulky and high off the ground, and not really an off-road vehicle capable like a Landcruiser or even a Range Rover (which always looks great inside and out)

  11. Kit Gerhart Says:

    7 The base price of the GLE is about $3K higher than the E-Class, but with the bigger ones, yeah, the GLS is a lot less expensive than an S-Class, but the GLS competes more with Tahoe and Yukon than anything else. If you want “really nice,” it’s the big German sedans, not the trucks. I’ll check out Doug’s X7 review.

    8 I’ve driven a “base” Cayenne, probably about $70K MSRP, and while it was nice, it sure didn’t seem $25K better than a well equipped Grand Cherokee, or something like that. A Range Rover has a much more “elegant” interior than the base Cayenne, but I haven’t driven one.

    9 I see quite a few 911s too. I suspect most people buy them because they look good, and have prestige, and few owners ever use the performance. As far as using the performance, it’s kind of like my buying a Corvette, except that I spent half as much. The Porsche I’d be most likely to buy is a Cayman. I think they look good, they certainly drive well, and cost a whole lot less than a 911.

  12. Thursten Howel Says:

    Larry D,
    What an ignorant A-hole you are. If you knew your history, you wouldn’t have won your war of Independence without France at a time when France had a far superior military than the bunch of rag tag rednecks in the US. Also, you should tone it down after the US was solidly defeated in both Iraq and Afghanistan. All that ridiculous spending and you still manage to lose multiple conflicts against 3rd world countries. What a humiliation!

  13. Druff Says:

    I think there is an over estimate of the amount of people in the global market that have access to a place to plug in there car. Much of the worlds population, especially in other countries, do not have a place at home to plug in. Even in large cities in the US many people park on the street, in lots, or ramps. I have a garage and have owned a hybrid in the past and would own one again but the plug in part seems like a waste for 15-20 miles.

  14. Lambo2015 Says:

    13 You have reiterated the point I have been making for a while now on these high estimates of EV and PHEV sales. It is a limited market due to plug-ins would only be convenient for those folks that can charge at home. No one wants to buy a car and stop for 15 min on their way to work to charge. So if they cannot charge at home PHEV and EV are probably not even on their list for consideration. These folks that throw out estimates just look at overall vehicle sales and think “Oh EVs are growing at whatever %rate and that will continue. No it wont! Once the people that want and can afford an EV and has a place to charge them do, then sales will flatten. Even with a whole charging network available at some point it still makes owning an EV very inconvenient if you cannot charge at home. So a charging network will not fix the problem either.

  15. Kit Gerhart Says:

    13 A lot of us in smaller towns/cities in the US don’t have a place to plug in a car either. I spend about 2/3 of the year in a condo in Florida, with no place to charge a car. The condo board have been checking into options, but there are no good ones for providing on-property charging.

  16. Larry D. Says:

    12 I Will not stoop to your level, vulgarian. I expect SEAN to throw your worthless posterior out of this forum. I was JOKING, you dumb fool. I know France’s help to the US 100 times better than you EVER will. You insulted the wrong guy. History is a REALLY serious hobby for me.

    PS I am NOT a mirror. Got it?

  17. Larry D. Says:

    11 re 9 you have zero facts to guess that just because some of them are affluent, Porsche 911 buyers don’t use the full capabilities etc. any more than buyers of any other performance cars. The 911 is an eminently driveable car you can use on a daily basis as well as take to the track. Which is not the case with even the entry level Ferraris and Lambos with their very low front ends which always hit the smallest rise in the pavement and you always have to worry about it, among other things. Plus 911s are surprigingly reliable given that engineers of such cars get bonuses based on the amount of weight they shave off their designs.

    As for the Tahoe, the Escalade and the Navigator, they will never have the interiors that the top German SUVs have, despite the very affordable prices of the Germans. I have driven and been driven in both and I know.

  18. Kit Gerhart Says:

    17 Huh? As with any other performance car, including Corvettes, some 911 drivers use the capabilities, and some don’t. I personally know only one 911 owner very well, and he has never had it on a track, and after two years of ownership, said it had never seen triple digits. I don’t know if he is the exception or the rule,

    Yeah, a 911 will work as a daily driver, as will a Corvette and many other performance cars. The thing my 911 owning friend complains about is the very expensive routine service at the dealer, even if nothing is wrong with the car. I don’t know the details, but I suspect the “official” schedule includes frequent brake fluid changes, and maybe transmission fluid changes with the PDK that he has.

    Yeah, the GLS has a nicer interior than a Tahoe, but not like an S-Class, or a Range Rover.

  19. M Campbell Says:

    Oh the interwebs. Ever notice how it’s always the condescending bully who proves that while the human brain can be wonderfully magnificent and imaginative, sometimes there’s more activity and growth in a tub of sour cream.

  20. Kit Gerhart Says:

    19 That’s pretty good.

  21. Bob Wilson Says:

    Recently the Wall Street Journal reported GM and VW agreed there would be no more ‘plug-in hybrids.’ GM already killed their Volt and VW/Porsche revealed that VW ethics is still their policy with the ‘PORSCHE UNVEILS CAYENNE PLUG-IN’ . . . or they just lied to the reporter.

    I don’t care because a $130,000, 16 mi range EV, plug-in hybrid is as useful as a 48 V hybrid … no use at all.

  22. XA351GT Says:

    Mike at number 4 If they do a Chrysler variant it should be a Convertible version only called the Cuda only available with the Hemi. You could still upscale the luxury aspect similar to how Mercury did with the original Cougars .

  23. Kit Gerhart Says:

    21 Some plug-in hybrids, like the Pacifica, are worthwhile like other hybrids, in getting good mpg, but it might make more sense to shrink the battery and forget the plug, which would allow them to lower the price, and save some cargo space.

  24. XA351GT Says:

    Well it’s not even for sale yet and a 2020 Corvette bit the dust . By the looks of the aftermath it appeared that the driver over cooked it carving through the canyons and tagged oncoming cars. Did someone hand Mark Ruess the keys ?

  25. Drew Says:

    1. Strangely, no one took on the question of how FCA can keep 3-4 more years of excitement for the aging Challenger. My suggestion is to add a convertible or Cordoba-like T-Top. But I suspect FCA has an architecture or manufacturing snag that has prevented the introduction of a convertible to date.

    2. I owned a European luxury car. Repairs frequency was no different than an American vehicle, but 2-3 times more expensive. I’m happy it has been replaced with a highly reliable, affordable, comfortable, stylish, and technically complete American sedan… yes… a sedan.

    I understand Porsche 911s have a ticking time bomb in the driveline… a bushing that needs replacement around 80-120k miles. It is an expensive maintenance item (featured on Wheeler Dealers) that requires the transmission to be removed…. and a terminally expense repair if the owner waits too long. Perhaps someone here has more insight.

  26. Drew Says:

    Oops… 22 published a Challenger suggestion while I was crafting my suggest.

  27. Bishop Says:


  28. ChuckGrenci Says:

    I posted this two days ago and at the time the cause (who’s fault) was not defined. Speculation was that maybe the truck cut the corner; anyone know if cause has been determined. I’m hoping it not the Vette but will accept conclusion(s).

  29. Roger T Says:

    Sean, I imagine the next gen challenger will be a new 4 year old design in 2022, I wonder if this is the right approach. Perhaps the strategy is a retro style which would not age as quickly?? To keep current version competitive they’ll need special editions back to back, along with reducing transaction pricing.

  30. Kit Gerhart Says:

    25 They seem to be keeping Challenger sales reasonable, by offering a lot of iterations. They have 4 different engines, 3 of them available with manual transmissions, probably more power train choice than with any other car in the US. Then, they have shaker hoods, “wide body” packages, etc. They are outselling Camaro, but may, or may not be making money with Challenger. It would cost money to offer so much choice.

    Does anyone know the coupe/convertible mix of Mustang and Camaro? It might not be worth the expense to make a Challenger Convertible. I’d think a luxury version, as mentioned in #4 might be good, if it is possible to make the car quiet, and ride well. The one I’ve driven, a 2015 R/T with the 5.7 was not particularly quiet.

  31. Kit Gerhart Says:

    28 I’ve searched around, but haven’t found much about what actually happened. I did find that no one was hurt in any of the vehicles, which is good.

  32. Len Simpson Says:

    Again,again & again—-low voltage ,ICE gen, small motor at each wheel . Light ,cheap ,
    simple , dependable , just as quick –or quicker due to weight factor. The idea of hauling around a half ton of dead weight batts is ridiculous , to say the least.—— Started learning auto repair at my Daddy’s knee in 1944 , spent my working (& retirement) lifetime in the world of cars . Just placed myself in a “Retirement Village” , boring as hell , miss my shop.

  33. Kit Gerhart Says:

    32 Why do you so love the idea of a slow gas hog with 4 electric motors, a generator, and a gas engine? Can you explain? TIA for a reply.

  34. Kit Gerhart Says:

    32,32 Ok, if you add a few hundred pounds of batteries, it could accelerate well for a while, with the generator charging the battery at light load times. Still, with only series operation, it would be a gas hog.

  35. Larry D. Says:

    At less than 40k pounds, this plug-in hybrid with over twice the EV range of the Cayenne (and less than half the price), 35 miles, it should sell well in Europe. probably will not be offered in the US, but I could care less, as I am not in the market for a 3 series or the model 3 that is killing it.

  36. Larry D. Says:

    35 Over here, nobody mentions CO2 numbers, but in Europe they mention them first, and MPG second!

    “I’d like to see the CO2 figure please.

    It’s rated at 38g/km. Company car drivers can beat BMW’s door down now.

    You didn’t mention fuel consumption.

    No, and I refuse to give the official figure because it’s relevant to nothing. As with all PHEVs, the real figure varies spectacularly, depending how you use it.

    Best case: say you’ve a 30 mile suburban commute, and no need for any more power than the electric motor’s peak. Plug it in for a few hours while you sleep, go to work and plug it in again.

    That gives you 300 miles a week, 45 weeks a year, equals 13,500 miles a year, using not a drop of petrol. You’d only use the piston engine for longer trips.I’d like to see the CO2 figure please.

    It’s rated at 38g/km. Company car drivers can beat BMW’s door down now.

    You didn’t mention fuel consumption.

    No, and I refuse to give the official figure because it’s relevant to nothing. As with all PHEVs, the real figure varies spectacularly, depending how you use it.

    Best case: say you’ve a 30 mile suburban commute, and no need for any more power than the electric motor’s peak. Plug it in for a few hours while you sleep, go to work and plug it in again.

    That gives you 300 miles a week, 45 weeks a year, equals 13,500 miles a year, using not a drop of petrol. You’d only use the piston engine for longer trips…”

  37. Kit Gerhart Says:


    It has 113 electric hp, so unlike many plug-in hybrids, like Prius Prime, it should do most normal driving without the engine starting, for as long as the battery has juice.

    I would hope that the fuel economy (or CO2) will be published for driving the car on petrol only, without ever plugging it in. If they did the hybrid system at all well, it should do significantly better than the non-hybrid petrol version with the same engine.

    According to this article, it will be available in the US for 2020.

    If it is, we should get gas-only EPA numbers. The wagon would be nice, but I’m sure it won’t be sold in the US.

  38. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Here’s info on the previous 330e. It didn’t do much better on gas only than the non PIH version. Not surprising, the now-discontinued in the US diesel did well, though.

  39. Lambo2015 Says:

    Lets face it, it is not efficient to package two powertrains so having an ICE and electric motors with a battery doesn’t make sense. It’s extra weight and cost. Its less efficient to have a bigger battery (weight) than what is needed.
    So the obvious solution is to have a very efficient ICE or a EV that just meets the range you need. The problem lies with driving habits change and with an ICE that’s not a problem you can fuel anywhere and go on long or short trips. With the EVs you are basically stuck with the size battery you buy if they even offer different sizes like Tesla. But even worse is with low gas prices in the US making a efficient ICE or EV only attractive if you are concerned about the environment or saving a few bucks. With EV’s the environmental impact is over-rated and not actual and depends on where you live.
    To me, its all very speculative and unclear and certainly not at all a cost savings to go electric. Hybrid is dual systems and again more cost for little savings and in the end the ICE wins again hands down.
    I’m currently driving a Chrysler 300 rental and this car has great acceleration and is a big car. Lots of room and I’m getting 31mpg. When I fill up I have over 400 miles of range. The price is tens of thousands less than any EV this size.

  40. Larry D. Says:

    28 I looked at the old plug-in 3, it had only 14 miles EV range, the new has 35. In the US I would probably use gas only for long trips, if my car had 35 EV range, even on Saturday shopping which I do ABCDEA visiting 5-6 stores would be less than 35 miles total.

  41. Larry D. Says:

    39 Hybrids (not plug-in) have been around for 20 years in the US and while they use 100% gas and no clean electricity, they do have much better city MPG.

    Plug-ins are sort of a bridge until a two to four times denser, fast supercharger network is built than the current one, esp outside of CA.

    Until then, Pure EVs with 300 and even 200 mile range can still make sense, work fast and save a ton of $ to tens of thousands of suburban commuters with long commutes, a common situation where I live, with typical commutes of 30 to 60 miles one way. A pure EV saves these users a ton of $, esp if they have solar cells and sell electricity back to the utility, then it is also 100% clean etc.

  42. Kit Gerhart Says:

    39 I mostly agree, except in the case of regular hybrids. They get a lot better mpg than non-hybrids of similar size and performance, especially in city driving. Here are some EPA numbers:

    In CR’s rather severe city test, the difference is even more dramatic than with the EPA city cycle.

    It’s a little hard to sort out the price premium for the Camry and Accord hybrids, since the standard equipment is a little different, but my best estimate is about $1500 for the hybrid over the standard four cylinder automatic versions of the same trim level. In that case, the fuel savings would pay for the difference in about 4 years of normal driving, with today’s, cheap gas prices.

    Not only do you pay for less gas, but you go farther between gas stops. The gas tank is smaller in the hybrids, but the mpg difference more than makes up for it.

    Some CVT haters wouldn’t like the way some hybrids drive, but in reality, the ECVT of the Toyota (and Ford) hybrids is much better behaved, especially at parking lot speeds, than conventional CVTs I’ve driven in a Subaru and a Nissan.

  43. Lambo2015 Says:

    41 Yeah having an EV that you can charge at home using solar panels or wind would be cost effective assuming you already have those power generating systems in place. If you take the cost of an EV then add in installing a charging port at home add in solar panels or a windmill and then you might save enough gas money in 25 years to justify all those costs.

  44. Larry D. Says:

    43 NO, You will save a BUNDLE even if you do not bother to install any solar panels, and the 25 years you cite are FAIRY TALES. Just do the math. And on top of all this, you will have an EV with far better performance and handling than any Chrysler 300 with a lousy interior and 20 year old design. (its only saving grace is its common dna with the Awesome E class). Obviously you are either incapable to do even the simplest math, or unwilling to do so. And of course, not that you would care, you would not be polluting our air and the air that YOU breathe.

    But if you install solar panels you get to sell the extra electricity to the utility and depending on the rate you get, you could make a TON of $. My neighbor here put $40,000 of cells on his modest one-story summer home and got a great rate on the electrt. he sells back. No, he does not driver an EV but a nice BMW bike and an ugly 20 year old Honda HRV and his wife drives an econobox opel corsa. Not that you would have a clue what that is.

  45. Larry D. Says:

    44 Note the 300, whose styling I like better than the loud Charger clone thereof, is a 25, not 20, as i wrote, year old design.

  46. Kit Gerhart Says:

    44 In the US, you’d save about $800 driving an EV 15K miles, instead of a Camry or Accord hybrid, if the electricity were free. Yeah, in other parts of the world, the difference would be a lot greater, if there is no EV “make up” for the fuel tax.

  47. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The 300/Charger/Challenger are still decent driving cars, even though they have been around a long time. They are not very efficient, though, even in the most efficient version. Maybe they should offer a diesel in them. Well, probably not.

  48. Larry D. Says:

    46 Surprisingly, nobody I know who commutes the 60 or 120 miles daily from their suburban homes, drives any hybrid, so this is not the proper comparison. Those with no young kids drive flagship sedans or SUVs, LS400-430-460, S classes, or ML or GLs and the BMW and Audi equivalents. Those with lots of kids always drive large SUVs.

    They do not need a hybrid, they can get a pure EV and have far more fun driving them, and they will not just save $800 but more like $10,000 a year each, and not with free electricity but with it costing 1/5th to 1/10th of gas, even in the US. AND in some cases half their electricity will be free if their employer offers it.

  49. Larry D. Says:

    48 PS it would not make much sense driving a hybrid anyway, because those who do the 120 miles daily, 90% of them are highway miles where a diesel of the same size vehicle would have even better MPG than a hybrid. But it sure would make sense driving a pure EV, especially if they got one of the fun to drive ones (Model S, even 3 or X) and not the ‘compliance EVs” that look they belong to a pizza delivery fleet.

  50. Kit Gerhart Says:

    48 Save 10K/year, in the US? Compared to what, a Dodge Ram with a V10?

  51. Kit Gerhart Says:

    49 Yeah, hybrids are at their best in city driving, but the good ones still get 10-15% better highway mpg than similar non-hybrids. As far as diesels, both the Camry and Accord hybrids get signicantly better highway mpg than the most recent 3 series and E-class diesels, both EPA and CR’s tests.

  52. Kit Gerhart Says:

  53. Lambo2015 Says:

    Larry get back on the meds