AD #2695 – Toyota Mirai Gets Sleeker Styling, Dyson Drops Plans to Make EV, Used Car Prices Fall in U.S.

October 11th, 2019 at 11:41am

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Listen to “AD #2695 – Toyota Mirai Gets Sleeker Styling, Dyson Drops Plans to Make EV, Used Car Prices Fall in U.S.” on Spreaker.

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Runtime: 7:08

0:07 Dyson Drops Plans to Make EV
0:46 Used Car Prices Fall in U.S.
1:22 Renault Fires CEO
1:44 Hyundai & Kia Reach Engine Settlement
2:42 Ford & Holoride Partner on In-Car VR Experience
3:23 Porsche & Boeing To Develop VTOL
3:56 Corvette C8.R Powertrain Details
4:37 Toyota’s LQ Concept Personalizes Autonomy
5:13 Mirai Gets Sleeker Styling
6:04 RAV4 Plug-In Debuting at LA Auto Show

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83 Comments to “AD #2695 – Toyota Mirai Gets Sleeker Styling, Dyson Drops Plans to Make EV, Used Car Prices Fall in U.S.”

  1. Larry D. Says:

    A. Dyson, Vaccum Cleaner Billionaire’s BEV bites the dust (could not resist)

    B. Used car sales are 3-4 TIMES the units of new car sales, even before the recent used prices drop, which made them even bigger bargains.

    C. The RAV4 plug-in should be interesting, even though I’m not in the market for such a vehicle. Curious what % of all Rav4 sales will be the plug-in version.

    D. Miraj styling. Ask me if I care. Fools Cells, as Elon so aptly put it.

  2. Kit Gerhart Says:

    There’s not much information about the RAV4 plug-in’s “most powerful RAV4 yet” status. Will it have. basically, the same powertrain as the regular RAV4 hybrid, with an extra few hp from somewhere, or will it be a totally different powertrain? Either way, it should be a decent vehicle. Sales potential will depend on the price, and the electric-only range.

    The regular RAV4 hybrid is a good buy, especially if you want 4WD anyway. The hybrid is only $800 more than the regular AWD version, and gets about 50% better city mpg, and somewhat better highway mpg.

  3. Brett Cammack Says:

    I saw some wag state that nobody would by a Dyson car because their products all sucked.


  4. Larry D. Says:

    3 I wish they did

  5. Larry D. Says:

    2 If the plug-in’s engine has a small displacement (current trend with the turbos etc) and if its real EV range is more than 50 miles, then it would have reasonable license fees in the old country (which rise exponentially with the displacement, among other things) and I could use it for my round trips downtown as much more compact (much shorter and narrower) than my diesel E, which may be forbidden from downtown areas in the future again.

  6. Lambo2015 Says:

    Toyota LQ concept is a unique design. Not very user friendly at the drive through or ATM with the tiny little windows but its a concept.

    VTOL will be another forecaster failure as the market will never be anything more than a few used here and there. Large waste of money but a fun exercise in engineering.

    Most powerful Rav4 yet, meaning it might actually have average power.


    The second generation Mirai looks a lot better, but it still don’t change the fact that hydrogen powered vehicles make no sense. 95% of all the hydrogen made in the US is made by burning fossil fuels. Yes you can make hydrogen from renewable energy, but with the amount of energy needed to make enough hydrogen to fill the fuel tank on the Mirai(312 miles), you can recharge an electric vehicle multiple times and go over 1000 miles.

  8. Lambo2015 Says:

    3 Don’t you mean some shag state?

  9. Kit Gerhart Says:

    6 “Most powerful Rav4 yet, meaning it might actually have average power.”

    Huh? The current RAV4 has better acceleration than most of its competition.

  10. Larry D. Says:

    I wonder if the name “Mirai” comes from the word “Mirage” in some language. Its prospects are sure reflected by that word.

  11. Kit Gerhart Says:

    5 The RAV4 plug-in will probably use the same basic powertrain as the regular hybrid, which has a 2.5 litre non-turbo engine. The powertrain is similar to the one in the Camry/Avalon/ES hybrids, except the RAV adds an extra, smallish electric motor for the rear wheels.

  12. Larry D. Says:

    In the old country, if offered with the 2.5, nobody will buy it. A close friend had a CR-V there, used it a lot, but had to pay $700 (600 euros) a year license fee for its 2.0. I would pay $900+ for my 2,987 cc Diesel, but pay a prorated amount only for the months I use it.

    I was hoping for a turbo 1.5 or smaller.

  13. Larry D. Says:

    12 correction, not $900+, but 900+ euros, or $1,100 or so.

  14. Larry D. Says:

    12 the guy with the CR-V got rid of it a year ago and bought a similar sized Peugeot 3008 with a 1.6 lt diesel that really sips fuel. His wife (both are MDs, he’s now retired) drives a Honda Fit (called Jazz there)

  15. Larry D. Says:

    11, 12 etc. Actually because it is a plug-in, the RAV4 will have very low license fees there, or even zero. They are a function of emissions too. Green cars pay much less.

  16. Sean McElroy Says:

    @Larry #10 – Mirai is Future in Japanese

  17. Kit Gerhart Says:

    12-15 I found that the only powertrain sold in the UK is the hybrid with the 2.5 engine. Unlike in the US, it is sold both FWD and 4WD.

    From what I could find, the smallest engines in RAVs for any market are 2.0, and there are no diesels. It appears that they are not too serious about selling it in Europe.

    12,14 Current CR-Vs (2016-current) in the US are sold with a 1.5 turbo as one of the engine choices.

  18. Sean McElroy Says:

    @Lambo #6 – I’m with ya on the tiny windows at the drive through and ATM. But you should Google the Concept-i, which this new concept is based on, and see Toyota’s vision for how the doors would open. It’s pretty wild.

  19. Bob Wilson Says:

    The web link is to a pro-TSLA analysis asking: “Whose market share did Tesla sales take?” and; “Did the Model 3 put a dent in combustion car sales in the USA?” I don’t know but he makes a case for the effect of +140,000 trade-in cars in 2018 softening the upper end, used car market. An effect that continues with the ~160,000 Model 3 project for 2019.

    This would be a great puzzle for Dr. Data in next weeks Autoline After Hours.

  20. Larry D. Says:

    Dream Car Debate, all holds barred

  21. Larry D. Says:

    16 Thanks, Sean. They shoulda saved the name for their BEVs.

  22. Lambo2015 Says:

    9 Maybe its just me but the Rav4 I drove I was not impressed with its power. Yea it had okay acceleration up to about 45 but not much fun on the highway.

  23. Larry D. Says:

    19 Thanks, just watched it, makes several interesting points.

  24. Kit Gerhart Says:

    20 That was pretty good. I like the looks of the Rolls better, but the Benz was faster, apparently too fast for its brakes.

  25. Kit Gerhart Says:

    22 In CR’s tests, the RAV4 was quicker to 60 than the others in its class, except for the V6 Cherokee and 2.0 turbo Terrain. The hybrid took 7.8 seconds 0-60, and the non-hybrid 8.3.

  26. Kit Gerhart Says:

    19 I suspect a lot of those sales decreases of mainstream sedans are the result of the crossover craze, but with the BMW 3 Series, yeah, I suspect a lot of that was the Model 3.

    Is there any data on how many Model 3s are additional cars in the household, rather than replacements? I’d think the number might be substantial, with people buying the Teslas “for fun,” kind of like I did with the Corvette.

  27. Larry D. Says:

    26 The 3/4 Series was sure a big victim of the Model 3. The Leaf’s decline most likely was also due to replacing them with model 3′s.

    Those 140,000 new Model 3 sales in 2018 happened in a flat market (and very declining for sedans), so it sure gained lots of market share at the expense of both share and units sold by the other automakers.

    The Model S in its day also took market share from the flagship sedans in its price range and above, from 2012-13 until 2018.

    I am more curious about the Model X, which I did not predict it would sell as well as it did.

  28. Larry D. Says:

    27 And certainly the Prius’s decline, this was one of the top 5 vehicles they traded or owned when they bought the Model 3

  29. Larry D. Says:


  30. Kit Gerhart Says:

    27 I suspect the low sales numbers of the 4 series, even before Model 3 production ramped up, has convinced Elon that there would be no point in making a coupe or convertible version of the Model 3. Total US sales of 4 series, with three body styles, coupe, convertible, and “Gran Coupe” 4 door hatch, have been only 30-40K, even in good years.

    I’m s little surprised about the Model X too. It has more room than the Model S, but the S has good room, and utility, and looks much better than the X. Also, isn’t the S significantly cheaper, at least the more basic versions.

  31. Wine Geek Says:

    The problem with the current RAV4 is that it is not a real 4WD just a front drive that has a partial assist to the rear wheels when the hybrid battery is charged. So you could really need 4WD and run the hybrid battery down and find you only have a FWD CUV when you really need the 4WD most.

  32. Kit Gerhart Says:

    31 The system won’t let the hybrid battery “run down.” It will keep some charge in it with the gas engine and MG1, but yeah, the 4WD of the RAV4 hybrid just to make it easier to get around on ice and snow, and does the most only at low speed. It is definitely not for off roading.

    Of course, the stupid thing is that they don’t sell the front drive RAV4 hybrid in the US, though they do sell it in most other markets.

  33. Barry Rector Says:

    Enjoy your long weekend. The Autoline staff definitely deserves it! You guys are fantastic.

  34. Bob Wilson Says:

    Does the new Toyota fuel cell car come with stylist cinderblocks for the 49 states and half of California that has no hydrogen fuel stations?

  35. Larry D. Says:

    34 As the great Foxworthy said (or repeated), a sure sign you’re a redneck is if your home has four wheels and your car does not.

  36. Larry D. Says:

    GM is suggesting the UAW is intentionally wasting everybody’s time.

    Surprise surprise to the regulars of this forum…

  37. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Toyota does a lot right, but why the obsession with fuel cell cars? Not only does the car need 3000 psi tanks, the fuel cell, batteries, and motors, making it very expensive, but using hydrogen as fuel makes no sense. The hydrogen can come from dissociating methane, which makes no sense, environmentally or otherwise. Alternately, you can get hydrogen by electrolyzing water, using huge amounts of electricity which could be better used to, well, charge batteries, or feed into the grid. It seems time for Toyota to accept that battery EVs will be at least part of the car market, and if they want to spend money on research, spend it to develop better batteries.

  38. Larry D. Says:

    37 Toyota miscalculated before, a couple years ago they were expecting the Prius to take over the Camry as the US best selling car.

    The exact opposite happened, many Prius owners switched to the Model 3,

    and the latest Civic, which is supposedly a few units behind the Camry, is actually the US best-selling car, because 50,000 Camrys or so go to the discount rental fleet sales.

  39. Larry D. Says:

    37 the other Toyota puzzle is why, when its trucks dominate world sales, it has failed to do well in the US in that segment, and its US trucks are always finishing last in the comparison tests, and some are not even reliable as they should be expected to be.

  40. Kit Gerhart Says:

    39 The Tacoma is the best selling “midsize” pickup in the US, by a wide margin, even though it generally gets bad reviews. It has a following, though, and has fan clubs kind of like Corvette and Porsche. The Tundra doesn’t sell well, though, but triple what Titan sells.

    The Hilux is the best selling “smaller” pickup, globally, but is behind the 3 American monster trucks.

  41. Larry D. Says:

    Tacoma’s segment is not that important, too few sales and too many rivals. It’s like the Yaris-Fit-(insert small Chevy model here)-Fiesta segment, where makers wasted billions and barely sold 5,000 a month, with the possible exception of the Nissan Versa, which however is a punishment cell with its terrible cheap interior.

  42. Larry D. Says:

    41 PS for the Tundra to feel good because it sells many more than the…. Titan is really very small consolation, as the Titan has been a HUGE Failure especially in number of units sold. Anybody and his mother in law can sell ten times what the Titan sells. I doubt it ever made Nissan a dime.

  43. Kit Gerhart Says:

    42 I never quite understood why they don’t just sell the Hilux in North America, rather than than the US/Canada-only Tacoma. They are similar enough that the Hilux could be made DOT legal without too much difficulty. Except for the 2.7 gas engine, the powertrains are different, with the Hilux offering two diesels, but no V6, though I’m sure the V6 would fit in the Hilux.

    Toyota consistently sells over 100K Tundras a year. The “Detroit 3″ sell many more pickups, but they have a lot more choice in how they can be configured. Also, old time brand loyalty is still a big thing with pickup buyers. As far as the Titan, they should probably take it out of its misery. Even with its semi-HD variant, it sold only ~53K in its best year, 2017, and sales are much lower, so far, for 2019.

  44. Kit Gerhart Says:

    41 Those small cars sell in large numbers in the rest of the world, so maybe it’s worth “federalizing” them for the US market. Trade wars could change that, though. Most of them are built in countries where a lot are sold, and imported to the US. Versa, Sentra, and some Fits are from Mexico. US-bound Fiestas were from Mexico.

  45. Larry D. Says:

    “Luxury-brand residual values are in decline, and it’s partly because Tesla is winning away customers.” From today’s Auto News Weekly titles. Here is the article too, I bet Joe would want to read it.. lol

  46. Larry D. Says:

    45 This is also further info on the question raised here earlier, namely whose market share did the 140,000 Teslas sold in 2018 take?

  47. Lambo2015 Says:

    43 Kit some of the problem with the truck sales at least in the northern Midwest is a lot of the trucks are bought by tradesman. In my 20s I worked for a construction company and on the job site you didn’t want to show up in a foreign truck. Many of the trades are unionized in that area and are very much in favor of buying American products. So the Union pipe fitters, carpenters, sheet metal workers, Iron workers, plumbers and electricians etc.. It was just as bad to show up with a Toyota pick-up as it was to be a non-union contractor. So breaking into that market would be difficult at least in that area.
    I’m sure if there was a map of Toyota pick-up sales the miswest sales are bleak while the majority come from the west and far south.

  48. Kit Gerhart Says:

    47 I hadn’t thought much about it, but, among my acquaintances, pickup brands are regional, even among people who buy trucks “just because.” I know umpteen pickup drivers, not tradesmen, in my union heavy home town in Indiana, and all of them are Ford, Chevy/GMC, or Dodge/Ram. I know two Tundra drivers, both in Florida.

  49. Larry D. Says:

    In the Detroit area, the worst sin is not to show up in a Honda if you are invited for Thankgsgiving by a Ford family, it is to show up in a GM (especially) vehicle instead. I am speaking from experience, I was invited to such a place in the year 2000 and my Accord 1990 coupe was the only non-Ford vehicle among 20 or so.

  50. Lambo2015 Says:

    Many of the assembly plants in Michigan still have separate parking lots for people that drive imports. They are usually a long walk from the plant entrance. As a supplier I parked in the visitor parking but would always hear some smack from the security guards if I was driving anything but the manufacturers brand into the plant. Had to explain to Enterprise not to send me imports back in 07-08 when things were bad and lots of people were getting laid-off. I never had any problems personally but I heard stories. I knew better than to drive a Tundra into the Kentucky truck plant.

  51. Larry D. Says:

    For those who worry about batteries (Not me) 10 years, 150,000 miles.

  52. Kit Gerhart Says:

    51 The aren’t “grandfathering” the 10 year, 150K warranty to my 2018. I’m not very worried, though.

    Reading the linked article, Toyota has found that “Almost half of those we asked didn’t know that hybrids are fueled the same way their current vehicle is, or any other internal-combustion-engine vehicle.” That is crazy, given that they’ve been selling Priuses for 20 years, but I’m not too surprised. Over the years, I don’t know how many people I’ve had to tell that with my Prius, and now Camry hybrid, you “just put gas in it and drive,” but that it doesn’t use much gas.

  53. Larry D. Says:

    52 One can never underestimate the stupidity and the cluelessness of the buying public.

  54. Larry D. Says:

    52 Toyota failed to develop full BEVs for the US market, and then it saw its Prius sales drop by a staggering amount due to Prius buyers going the next step and buying Model 3s, so now they are trying to help the Prius, the RAV4 Hybrid, and their other hybrids pick up sales from the ignorant masses.

  55. Kit Gerhart Says:

    54 Toyota hasn’t explained hybrids very well over the years, but now, with gas being dirt cheap, it probably wouldn’t help sales much, even if they did explain them better. Still, the RAV4 hybrid should be almost a no-brainer, for those who want such a vehicle. Even though the stupid 4WD is mandatory for the hybrid in the US market, the payback for the hybrid in fuel savings is only 2-3 years, even at today’s gas prices.

  56. Larry D. Says:

    55 I remember Mercedes purpsely priced the Diesel E only $1 or less more than the gas E 6-cyl, and buyers would recover the diff in ONE year, yet still most preferred the gas version.

    However, in the late 70s-80s with the crazy gas crises, a staggering 80% of new Mercs bought were Diesels, including that of my then faculty advisor who used to drive an old green Dodge Dart and when he took a sabbatical in Europe, he bought an $8,000 240D with its tiny HP and slow as molasses acceleration, and regretted he did not get the 300D.

  57. Lambo2015 Says:

    55 Doesn’t look like Toyota has any plans to help explain either. Taken from that article, “Toyota won’t be doing splashy advertising to explain how a hybrid operates”.
    Seems to be a bad move on their part same as how GM neglected the Volt. When the public doesn’t know about your product or how it works what would make them think they will even visit the dealership to have it explained to them? The warranty might help but what they didn’t say was how much degradation is acceptable and at what point will they cover a replacement?
    Maybe Bob can tell us what degradation Tesla requires to replaced the battery under warranty.

  58. Kit Gerhart Says:

    57 I don’t know how most Toyota sales people are with the hybrids. When I’ve bought them, I knew what I wanted, and the sales people could tell that.

    What the sales people should do, though, is find out what kind of driving the customer does, and if they do much stop and go/city driving, the should encourage a customer to consider a Camry or RAV hybrid over the other versions, or a Prius or Corolla hybrid, if they want something smaller. I don’t think they do that, though. When I was looking for a Camry hybrid, there were very few at dealers, though the one I got was what I wanted, except for the non-color (silver).

  59. Lambo2015 Says:

    You knew what you wanted before even heading to the dealership. The problem is the general public is pretty confused and uninformed when it comes to hybrid/PHEV/BEV. Not a single manufacturer is doing much of anything to clear that up.
    I assume their thinking is just advertise a high MPG and let the dealership explain how they get there. Obviously according to that article and the surveys that were done the public isn’t aware and unless they visit a dealership they will continue to not know the difference.

  60. Kit Gerhart Says:

    59 I suspect that at a lot of dealerships, customers will still be confused and uninformed, even after talking to a sales person.

    I checked to see what Camry hybrids two dealers near me have in stock. Each has one hybrid, out of about 100 Camrys, and, of course, they were non-colors, one white and one black. It makes me wonder if dealers can’t get the hybrids, or if they just don’t order them. I don’t know if you can factory order a Camry like you can a Chevy or Ford, but when I bought my Camry hybrid, they certainly didn’t want to order one; they wanted to sell me the one they had, and priced it accordingly.

  61. Bob Wilson Says:

    #57 – the web link is to the warranty:

    “Model 3 – 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.” For my 240 mi range, Model 3, 70% loss would be 168 miles.

    I’m seeing ~234 miles, 97.5% after ~14,500 miles over ~7 months (2,070 mi/mo.) At this rate, ~49 months to exceed 100,000 mi. Straight line, ~82.5% or 198 mi. Reports are the batteries have an early loss that flattens into a shallow slope.

  62. Lambo2015 Says:

    61 Thanks Bob. I wonder what is more detrimental to a battery the 8 years or the cycling? Also wonder how its affected by partial charges or fast charging? I know you’ve only had yours for 7 months so you probably don’t know and besides that would take a side by side comparison and 8 years.

  63. Kit Gerhart Says:

    62 I’ve heard for years, that using only the “middle” part of the charge-discharge cycle makes the batteries last a lot longer. Also, fast charging is harder on them.

  64. Lambo2015 Says:

    63 So buying a used BEV might have similar sales pitches that were used with ICE cars. It was a little old lady who just drove it to church. Or the miles are high but its highway miles. Now it will be they never used fast chargers and always stayed in the mid-range. But you’ll never know if you got a used BEV that was abused with fast chargers and ran dead. Unless the cars themselves keep a record of the charging cycles. Which I could also see being used to void a warranty if not maintained properly.

  65. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I’d think Teslas might have data logging for charge-discharge cycles, but maybe only Elon can access the data.

  66. Larry D. Says:

    Lots of news this morning

    VW is not building that plant in Turkey, after its invasion of Syria etc.

    Faraday Motors ‘founder’ files for bankruptcy but claims its operations will not be disrupted. Yeah, right.

    will not add links because they are not posted with more than 1 link per post.

    Harley stopped production of one of its EV bikes.

  67. Larry D. Says:

    65 oh, and PS Audi suspends its stupid air taxi deal with Airbus.

  68. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Harley only stopped production of the electric bike to fix problems. They didn’t give up on it.

  69. Larry D. Says:

    68 I did not say they gave up on it, but maybe they should have, if they care about profits.

  70. Lambo2015 Says:

    Latest on the strike: Workers are getting close to losing as much in wages as the $8,000 signing bonus will provide. Plus if GM loses 1 billion this year due to the strike their profit sharing check will be reduced by $1000. So I wonder who will fold first?

  71. Lambo2015 Says:

    68 If they were smart they would halt production until they can figure out how to sell the bike for about 10K less. I think they will struggle even at 20K for a bike with 80 mile range. Once the die-hard Harley buyers with expendable cash of 30K buys the first couple then they will realize what a failure they have on their hands. I haven’t heard of people rushing to the dealerships to lay down a deposit (like Tesla gets) for this bike. I wonder if they even have any orders being placed. Now they have an issue that requires a halt in production? Must be serious like battery fires for them to halt production.

  72. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I didn’t say you said they gave up on it, but until I read they article, it would be hard to know that.

  73. Kit Gerhart Says:

    72, in reference to #69

  74. Kit Gerhart Says:

    71 Even at $20K, it might be a hard sell. I suspect most people wanting an electric bike with limited range would rather have something smaller and lighter, like a Zero, for $15K or less. I rode a “base” Zero this spring, and it worked very well.

  75. Larry D. Says:

    On the whole topic of an EV Harley specifically, to me it seems like an oxymoron, given the Harley tradition.

    On GM, I am surprised there is a ton of ads on the internet (and probably on TV also) by dealers touting their GMC vehicles, discounts etc. I thought that after a month or so, inventories would be real tight and the trucks would sell themselves, and at a premium. Why did they have to waste all that $ on ads?

  76. Larry D. Says:

    ‘debatably affordable’ alright, at $120k vs the $150-180k of the original taycan and taycan…”turbo” (LOL). It may compete with the very top Tesla S, but cannot do so even with the top of the line Model 3, which goes for $78k tops, I believe.

  77. Kit Gerhart Says:

    76 I just checked the Tesla site, and it looks like the most expensive Model 3 is only $63,990, “excluding taxes and fees.” Yeah, the ‘non-turbo’ Taycan is still pricey, but I hear that the Porsche dealer experience is generally pretty good.

  78. Larry D. Says:

    77 The point is, the Taycan, even this ‘bargain basement one’ is no Tesla killer, as auto journalists thoughtlessly and ad nauseam repeat. It is in a totally different price range, especially for the Model 3, but even for the much lower volume Model S. Your numbers for the Model 3 top price are even more reinforcing my original post. I thought the top was $78k but if you see $64k that must be it. Maybe it was $68k all included.

  79. Kit Gerhart Says:

    78 Yeah, the price of the Model 3 Performance with options, and “destination charge” and “document fee,” etc. would probably be ~$68K, a bargain for the 0-60 time it offers.

    The Taycan will have better build quality, a switch for the windshield wipers, and some other advantages over the Model 3, but at about twice the price.

    It will be interesting to see how the Taycan sells, but I expect it to sell ok. People pay a big premium to get a Porsche Cayenne, rather than a similar Audi Q7, so I’d expect some of the same people to be willing to pay a big premium for a Taycan over any Tesla. Even a Model S is a relative bargain, compared to the Taycan. A Model S Performance with all options listed on the site, except $4500 carbon wheels, is $110,490, less “destination,” etc. , and the S Performance probably at least equals the Taycan “Turbo S” in acceleration, and would have better range.

  80. Lambo2015 Says:

    74 There is a premium price to be paid for owning a HD. There has always been other bikes on the market that were better for less money and yet people still pay the premium price asked by HD. The question is what is that premium to own a HD EV? I don’t think more than 5k is going to work and that puts it around 20k.

  81. Larry D. Says:

    78 All Porsche models together sell 5,000 units a month. The base Cayenne is very affordable, as is the base Boxster-Cayman. The Taycan is in the upper 911 price range, so actually I would not expect it to do more than 500-1000 units a month at first, and then even less.

    80 the problem with EV bikes is that, even if Harley makes them, they are the anti-Harley. Will they have some phony sound to imitate that of real Harleys? I would not pay any $ for that.
    I will be surprised if they succeed.

  82. Lambo2015 Says:

    81 I hear what your saying but they are targeting a newer generation that may not care as much about the Harley sound. The brand itself has been marketed well. People like being part of something even if its not representative of what made the brand iconic. Buell had some success trying to garner sport bike enthusiasts but like the EV it was short lived and I suspect this will be too.

  83. Kit Gerhart Says:

    82 Harley may be making most of their money selling clothes. There is an H-D store near me in Florida that doesn’t even sell motorcycles, just clothes.