AD #2728 – Japanese OEMs Dominate Chinese Hybrid Market, Mahindra Under Fire Over Roxor, FCA & UAW Reach Deal

December 2nd, 2019 at 11:42am

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Listen to “AD #2728 – Japanese OEMs Dominate Chinese Hybrid Market, Mahindra Under Fire Over Roxor, FCA and UAW Reach Deal” on Spreaker.

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Runtime: 7:20

0:07 Mahindra Under Fire Over Jeep Lookalike
0:37 Daimler To Cut Thousands of Jobs
1:22 FCA Reaches UAW Contract Agreement
1:43 Justice Department Continues UAW Investigation
2:46 Japanese Brands Dominate Chinese Hybrid Market
3:30 BMW To Build Mini EV In China
4:11 VW Stops Ice Development for Racing
4:27 BMW Shows Its “Big Boxer” Engine
5:10 Fisker Ocean Details Released
5:58 Hyundai’s Digital Key App
6:26 Can You Name This Car?

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47 Comments to “AD #2728 – Japanese OEMs Dominate Chinese Hybrid Market, Mahindra Under Fire Over Roxor, FCA & UAW Reach Deal”

  1. Larry D. Says:

    “japanese brands dominate” nothing in China.

    First of all, ALL of them have joint ventures, they are not alone like Tesla.

    Second of all there is a huge number of Chinese plug-in AND BEVs.

    China is the biggest BEV market on the PLANET and will remain so even as Europe picks up its BEV pace. The US will be a distant third, as I have pointed out before.

  2. Larry D. Says:

    as for the crooks at Mahindra, serves them right. They will lose in every other court they appeal their conviction. Their POS jeep clone looks exactly like a Jeep, both grille and front end sheetmetal, lights etc.. Typical of the crooks.

  3. Lambo2015 Says:

    Certainly Mahindra could re-skin their jeep look-a-like. They should be able to make a similar flat panel cyber-truck skin in short order.

  4. Tom Rae Says:

    The mystery car looks like a Renault 4CV.

  5. Jim Haines Says:

    I assume he is leaning on the car because he just to take a break from pushing his Renault 4 CV down the road

  6. Kit Gerhart Says:

    1 Japanese brands dominate non plug-in hybrids in China, but not plug-in hybrids with a few miles of electric range.

  7. Lambo2015 Says:

    Interesting video on towing and off road driving an EV.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cvNfmL7XQg

  8. Larry D. Says:

    6 Once again, they dominate nothing. ALL automakers except Tesla have to do joint ventures in China.

    Also, all the green cars I would see in CHina were local, with a few Teslas (pre-Chinese production, very expensive, even the Model 3). The LOCAL makers dominate the green market.

  9. Lambo2015 Says:

    8 Larry, Try reading the transcript before spouting your un-factual observations.
    “the Japanese automakers now control 99% of the hybrid market in China, excluding plug-in hybrids”. Sean wasn’t talking about PHEVs or BEVs.

  10. cwolf Says:

    Haven’t seen a 4CV for years, but they are cute as heck. The last one I saw was a “resort special”, but they also made a truck out of that thing. I didn’t see a marker light behind the rear door window so I have to guess it is a 1960 or earlier.

  11. cwolf Says:

    Didn’t Mahindra buy the license from Willy’s for the army jeep after the war? If so, they may have a leg to stand on.

  12. Kit Gerhart Says:

    6 OK, their joint ventures dominate non plug-in hybrids in China. Whatever. Toyota joint ventures have about 5% market share in China.

    http://carsalesbase.com/china-car-sales-data/toyota/

  13. Sean McElroy Says:

    China has been rolling back its rules for foreign automakers to set up 50/50 joint ventures with local Chinese companies. In 2016, foreign motorcycle and battery manufacturers were allowed to set up wholly owned operations. China also says it plans to lift the 50/50 joint venture rule for foreign automakers by 2022. Daimler has already expressed interest to increase its stake to 65% in its JV with BAIC. BMW says it wants 75% of its JV with Brilliance. But the reason Tesla (I believe there are others, but I’m looking into it and will update) doesn’t have a joint venture partner is because it’s not required to. The JV rule for EV and aerospace manufacturers was eliminated.

  14. XA351GT Says:

    I don’t doubt that China will lift it’s 50/50 rule, because by then they will have all the tech they need to do it alone and boot all foreign companies out.

  15. Larry D. Says:

    14 Good point.

    I spent a whole month in China last Nov and I looked at thousands of green cars and their vast majority (Shanghai Area) were Chinese makers, some of whom I knew (like BYD, my Dean’s crossover plug-in from pre-2016) and others I never heard of before.

    I rarely saw any Japanese green cars there.

    It is easy to spot the green ones because they actually have green vs blue license plates.

    For pre-2016 cars, even the green ones had blue plates (as the above crossover, a lexus RX300 clone but not made in coop w TOyota)

  16. Kit Gerhart Says:

    15 Do you know if the Chinese brand plug-in hybrids are a serious effort for running on gas, or are they more like a Fisker, better for driving mainly on plug-in power, but getting dismal mpg on gas?

  17. Buzzerd Says:

    New BMW cruiser looks very nice, not for me though, I prefer something that likes to go around corners.

  18. Kit Gerhart Says:

    17 If they actually build something like that, it will be a milestone in recent BMW history, for making a “mild” engine. They now have a 1250cc boxer twin making 136 hp, while this 1800 makes only 91 hp. I guess they want to go after the Harley market for big, low performance twins, but with a boxer rather than a V.

    In some ways, it is a lot like the old BMW twins, like I had in the ’80s, with pushrod valves, and a vertically split crankcase. The “big boxer” is oil/air cooled, rather than just air cooled with deep cylinder fins.

  19. Kit Gerhart Says:

    It’s really strange that the linked BMW group article has this sub-headline: “The most powerful BMW boxer engine of all time…”

    From the BMW consumer web site, it is easy to find a current production BMW boxer engine making 49% more power than “the most powerful BMW boxer engine of all time.” Hmmm

  20. Dale Leonard Says:

    The car pictured looks like a Renault Dauphine. I had one in High School and from the side it looks the same.

  21. Buzzerd Says:

    I assume when they refer to the most powerful they are talking about torque.
    I own a GS1200 water cooled and love the bike. I’ve ridden a few of the bikes with 1250 motors and they are nice, not enough to get me to spend the $15,000 ish to upgrade though.

  22. Kit Gerhart Says:

    https://flic.kr/p/MHrG8g

    Renault 4cv

  23. Art Patstone Says:

    That’s an easy one, John. It’s a Renault 4CV. My mother was badly hurt when she was hit while driving one.

  24. cwolf Says:

    kit, I’m not a motor bike guy, but get the differences between oil,oil/air cooled vs just air cooled. Besides cost, what do you look for in a bike? Seems to me they all go faster than one would want, have the same center of gravity and carry/tow more than one could. Just curious.

  25. MJB Says:

    Thanks Sean for featuring that photo. My dad never was able to tell me what car that was he was leaning on (wasn’t his). Now, thanks to Tom Rae and Jim Haines it appears we finally know.

  26. MJB Says:

    @22. Thanks, Kit.

  27. Kit Gerhart Says:

    21 A friend recently got a new GS. He checked out a Honda Africa Twin, but liked the BMW better, enough to make up for the price difference. If he planned to actually use it off-road, the lighter, narrower Honda would be better, but he will use it almost entirely on road.

  28. cwolf Says:

    Why would China lift it’s 50/50 rule? Sure they now have all the technology, thanks only to those putting greed over morals. But, lifting the rule wouldn’t make economic sense to them. Investing only 50% on new start ups reduces risk 50% while still having access to new technology.
    Twice I turned down trips to China regardless of the huge pay-off. Just recently, I was asked to travel there to show them how to operate machinery from my old plant. I would feel like a traitor if I did. I know many who went and not one of them learned a pittance from the Chinese than what was given. But I’m sure Larry will have no problem sleeping.

  29. buildmore2doors Says:

    Sean,
    In the case of the BMW motorcycle engine, if there is only one cylinder per side is it really a ‘boxer’ engine? I thought the nickname came from two pistons running side by side resembling a boxer punching at you. These twins really don’t have that characteristic. A flat four cylinder from Subaru or the original Beetle four cylinder qualify but I’m not so sure about the BMW engines.

  30. Don Wagner Says:

    Yes, that “barn find” is a Renault 4CV. The Dauphine was their next generation import. One of my friends at McDonnell Aircraft (before the Douglas merger, and my first professional job) had one and was part of a car pool we had (St. Louis area). Really cramped in the back seat and very slow. Just a tiny bit quicker than a Beetle, but never caught on to challenge VW. Early ’60s.

    How many Mahindra products has anyone on this forum owned? What was the criminal charge(s) trial outcome? The Roxor has the CJ5 or CJ7 look, but nothing else. Which Jeep currently for sale is used for farm utility work? If I needed to move hay bales, I would use some vehicle for John Deere or Honda. Why does FCA bother? Just makes them look petty and trying to divert attention from the GM lawsuit, or just convenient? Yes, the suit was earlier, but still silly.

    Hi Larry. Back from China I see.

  31. cwolf Says:

    When I was almost of driving age, I remember Willys Jeep in the crate for sale for $100 on the back of comic books. Wish I bought one. Fewer problems than the new ones for sure!

  32. Kit Gerhart Says:

    28 Any opposed cylinder engine with a 180 degree crankshaft with pistons going toward and away from each other is a “boxer” engine. The term has probably been used more often for two cylinder engines in BMW bikes, for about 95 years, than for any other engines. “Boxer” engines include VW Beetle, Corvair, a number of 4 and 6 cylinder airplane engines, and a few 8 cylinder airplane engines. There may have been some boxer 10s, but I’m not sure. The Ferrari opposed 12 cylinder engines in Testarossa, and maybe other cars were not “boxer” engines, because they used shared crank pins for each set of cylinders.

  33. Kit Gerhart Says:

    23 cwolf, I’ve had a number of bikes over the years, since about 1975. I never had a really fast bike, maybe because they didn’t exist when I started riding was in my late 20s.

    I now have two bikes, a Honda SilverWing megascooter, a 600cc machine with the engine in the back, good wind protection, and a belt CVT similar to what a snowmobile has.

    My “real” motorcycle is a Kawasaki KLR650. It’s a dual sport, on-off road machine, which I use entirely on road. It is slow for a motorcycle, but would be moderately quick for a car, 5.5-6 second 0-60 time. I like it because it has good suspension for bad roads, is fairly light weight, and I like the relaxed sound and feel of the big, single cylinder engine. It has a balance shaft, so it is pretty smooth.

  34. Paul Says:

    Could either John or Sean please comment on the growing trend by many designers to give their vehicles what I call the “drawn-in-checks-look” – where the doors are scalloped inwards creating a faux door-sill and deep hollows in the center-lines of the doors.

    More than once I have been fooled by seeing this “feature” on a passing vehicle into thinking that it had suffered from a T-bone side impact and the “feature” was the smashed-in result.

    While it is probably used to give the impression of reduced mass or width? To my eye, it looks like they caved out some of the car’s metal to reduce cost and visually makes the amount of door protection look reduced and visually implies that the vehicle is less able to protect its occupants.

    What do you think?

  35. Steve W Says:

    The car is a Renault 4CV.

  36. ARHPG Says:

    29. Yes, that is definitely an early fifties (possibly a 1950) Renault 4CV. Transportation in its most elemental form.

  37. Dan Jones Says:

    My first car was a Renault 4cv I bought for $20 when I was 15. It kept me off the street for a couple of years, but I loved it!

  38. Kit Gerhart Says:

    36 I found a number of 4CV photos, and all of them had lights on the “C” pillars. Would the lights have been removed on the “barn find” car, or did some years not have the lights?

  39. Larry D. Says:

    16 They are serious efforts, very serious, and not just icing on the cake, they save a ton of $ to their owners, I asked and they told me they can do 60 KM per 10 yuan ($1.50) of electricity charge)

  40. Larry D. Says:

    28 Why would China lift it’s 50/50 rule?

    Why did they already lift it for TESLA? Answer this and you will know the answer to your Q in any future case.

  41. Lambo2015 Says:

    39 That’s why I would think manufacturers should be going after the three-wheeled EV market. They can lighten up the vehicle and get away from much of the vehicle crash requirements and only suffice the motorcycle requirements the price could be really competitive. Elio should have scrapped the whole 3cyl engine 70mpg and gone EV years ago. They have a decent design and it would make a good commuter car for that single person going back and fourth to work with space for an extra person if needed. They were targeting a price tag under 8k so if they could have made it an EV under 15k they would have sold a ton as they would have been inline with motorcycles with an actual enclosure with HVAC.

  42. Kit Gerhart Says:

    39 How are the plug-in hybrids when running on gas? That’s what I’m curious about. Maybe most rarely use gas, but if they can run on gas, what are thr powertrains like?

  43. Larry D. Says:

    https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/china-raises-2025-electrified-car-sales-target-25?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20191203&utm_content=article10-headline

    This includes Plug-ins, BEVs and even fuel cells. 25% of a 30 mill a year market is 6 mill Electric cars. Or 5, in a 25 mill market.

    42 It is not noticeable, in 2016 my host would take me to lunches with his RX300 clone (a BYD) and I never had a clue it was a plug-in. I don’t know how they would do on long trips.

    My drive to the airport on Sat was a Roewe, a thinly disguised Rover clone, about the size of a current Jetta. The young driver would go 128 KPH in 80 KPH zones all the time. (there was a huge speed digital display at the center of the speedometer)

  44. Larry D. Says:

    https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/jeep-starts-grand-commander-plug-sales-china?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20191203&utm_content=article11-headline

    “Grand Commander”, a 50-50 China Jeep Plug-in.

    Chinese commutes are much shorter than US ones. THis should be able to drive gas free except for long trips. It has the typical 70 km or 80 km range of chinese plug-ins.

    and at only $44k, it is very affordably priced for China, where imports are much more expensive than they are here.

    ALSO, Nov sales are coming in, TOyota, Honda and Hyundai reported them early, because they all had 6-9% gains, due to trucks.

  45. Larry D. Says:

    https://www.autonews.com/china/tesla-cybertruck-mocked-many-may-turn-out-brilliant-one-designer-says?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20191202&utm_content=article15-image

    Only a car designer would say that.

    The first time I saw a Tesla in the flesh it was a Model S driving the other way, I barely got a glimpse, and having never seen one before, I thought it was a Buick! There is no chance of confusing this truck with anything else. Free Advertising. BUT I still believe that even a small horizontal roof segment, instead of this pinheaded roof, would be much better looking, AND would not break the bank to modify.

  46. Brett Cammack Says:

    I doubt FCA is going after Mahindra because they’re afraid someone will accidentally buy a Roxor when they set out to buy a new Wrangler.

    “Use it or lose it” is in play, I expect. You can’t effectively defend your trademarks if you don’t actively defend it all the time.

  47. Aliisdad Says:

    I believe Mahindra builds their vehicle under an old agreement that allowed them to build Jeeps years ago and long before FCA ownership… I am wondering if it is really a contractual problem verses patent problem… Would like more on this…

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