AD #2783 – Lincoln Navigator Impressions; Geneva Auto Show Cancelled; Corvette Design Critique

February 28th, 2020 at 12:00pm

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Runtime: 10:26

0:08 Geneva Auto Show Cancelled
0:48 Hyundai Halts Production at Korean Plant
1:12 Cruise Approved to Carry Passengers in CA
1:47 Indianapolis Cancels BYD Bus Order
2:44 Audi Developing Performance E-Tron Models
3:30 Citroen Unveils Tiny Ami EV
4:41 New Tech from Ford Protects 2-Wheel Riders
5:31 Corvette Design Critique
7:56 Lincoln Navigator Impressions

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55 Comments to “AD #2783 – Lincoln Navigator Impressions; Geneva Auto Show Cancelled; Corvette Design Critique”

  1. WineGeek Says:

    Goofy? The new Corvette is beautiful, stop nitpicking. You couldn’t do better!!!

  2. ChuckGrenci Says:

    I’ve also got no issue with the new C8; just envy.

  3. Kit Gerhart Says:

    A lot of cars have silly exhaust tips, including fake ones on some Mercedes and others. Maybe they should all be round, since they are mostly connected to round pipes in front of them.

  4. Kit Gerhart Says:

    2 Maybe my investments will recover somewhat, by the time I’ll be able to buy a C8 using my retiree discount.

  5. Larry D. Says:

    That “Ami” (which means “friend” in French) is really underwhelming, as is the Navigator.

    6000 Euros is $7,000 and is unacceptably high for this POS.

    The Lincoln is NOT gargantuan, in fact it is MUCH smaller than the New Escalade, espcially in the interior, but also in exterior, if you get the LX Escalade (or XLT or whatever) which is truly gigantic.

    And I hate the unpolished wood. They should take a Lexus LS460 and see how bright polished wood should look like

  6. Lambo2015 Says:

    Looks like the Citroen Ami with its diminutive speed is an enclosed golf cart.

    Nice ideas from Ford to protect the 2 wheel riders but is this really that big of a problem? Do people not know how to use a rearview mirror? The lighting I could see being helpful for night street parking but not sure I would pay any extra for this feature. Maybe cause I don’t park on city streets that often.

    Corvette tail tips. Uhhh I cant think of a design that would look much better maybe a parallelogram would have been appropriate but I do believe that’s nitpicking.

    Congrats to Lincoln for developing what looks to be a true contender in that large luxury SUV market. I would like to have heard Johns opinion on how it compares to the new Escalade. since that is its main competition.

  7. Larry D. Says:

    Oh, and PS a six figure hippopotamus and a lousy 6? It should have AT LEAST a 400-500 HP V8. But apparently those with enough bad taste to buy this breadvan do not care.

  8. Larry D. Says:

    If they fix that broken-line spoiler in the c8 it would look fine.

  9. Kit Gerhart Says:

    5 The new Escalade with be about 3 inches wider than the Navigator, 84 vs 81 inches. Otherwise, they are about the same size on the outside.

  10. Lambo2015 Says:

    That really sucks the Geneva Auto Show will be canceled. It was looking to be the premier for a lot of new vehicles. So any word on what the manufacturers will do that had plans for their big unveilings? Will they just wait or just go public using the WWW.
    The Geneva promoters should establish a web site and have a virtual auto show.

  11. Brett Cammack Says:

    The C8 is one of the first Corvettes in the past decade or so that didn’t–to me–look like it was designed by someone that was molested with a Hotwheels toy as a child. They were caricatures.

    GM stylists seem to have trouble knowing when to put down their pencils.

    The C8 is more authentically styled because of the awkward shapes of some of the masses in some viewing angles. They are concessions to the engineering requirements of the suspension, powertrain, aerodynamics, etc. Still contemporary, yet faithful to the brand’s styling language.

    Regarding the Navigator: “Like driving around in an apartment building.” I heartily concur.

    Running the backroads around Johnson City, TN with my grandson-in-law at the wheel of his RAM 2500 pickup, I asked him “How the Hell do you know where your tires are in relationship to the shoulder or the centerline??”

    All you can see is this massive hood and the road disappearing under it, off yonder in the distance. Faith-based driving, so to speak.

    Just my two cents.

  12. Larry D. Says:

    9 NO. I SPECIFICALLY mentioned the truly Huge Escalade XLT or whatever. AND trhe interior room int he EScalade is MIND BOGGLINGLY bigger than EVEN the Old escalade.

  13. Brett Cammack Says:

    Don’t they need cab marker clearance lights if their over 80″ wide?

  14. Larry D. Says:

    12 When I saw the numbers, they were unbelievable, up 50% vs even the Old Escalade, the interior room /dimensions

    AND the Escalade comes with a Decent 6.2 lt V8 as it should. NOT with the wimpy 6 turbo.

  15. Kit Gerhart Says:

    From photos I’ve seen, the new Corvette looks good. I haven’t seen one “in person” yet, but should be able to soon. The exhaust tips? Who cares? My C7 has four round pipes, all connected to the engine, but they are “fakey” in that it is not 4 pipes that feed them. They look ok to me, though.

  16. Albemarle Says:

    The Ford bike warning is a good idea. Hyundai just lock the door I think until the bike is past.
    Best solution is to learn to drive in the Netherlands. They are taught to always open the left door with their right hands. Turns your body to face back along the road so you can see any approaching bikes.
    We all know that’s a non-starter for us.

  17. Lambo2015 Says:

    7 Larry the 4 cyl produce as much power as the 6s used too, just as the 6s produce as much as the V8s did. That Navigator has 450 HP which is more than sufficient power and because of the smaller engine it can achieve better fuel economy and less emissions.

    I understand what your saying as I personally would prefer a naturally asperated V8 over a turbo V6 if the power is equal too. But that’s Fords “ecoboost” direction and they put as small of an engine they can with a turbo on everything. They probably figure with all the insulation and quiet exhaust most folks only know what they feel when they press down on the pedal. Most Navigator owners will probably never lift the hood.

  18. Kit Gerhart Says:

    12 No WHAT? The “short” Escalade is about the same length as the “short” Navigator. The long version of the Escalade is about the same length as the long Navigator. The 2021 “long” Escalade grew about 3 inches in length, no big deal for something already ~220 inches long.

  19. GM Veteran Says:

    14 – 50%? Really Larry? If the Escalade grew 50% bigger, UPS would be using it to deliver packages. And its Escalade ESV, as a quick fact check visit to their website would tell you.

  20. Kit Gerhart Says:

    17 The outgoing Escalade with the 6.2 V8 and the Navigator with the 3.5 turbo V6 got very similar acceleration, and gas mileage in CR’s test.

  21. Ukendoit Says:

    As popular as SUVs have gotten, and all this talk about the new Navigator and Escalade, it makes me wonder about the Chrysler Aspen. I don’t have any experience with one myself, but from what I’ve read, it was a good alternative; a little smaller than the others but with class leading towing and even a hybrid HEMI available. Essentially an upscale 2nd gen Durango, it was only made 2007-2009. Chrysler said at that time (with the recession ramping up), “full size SUV sales are down” so they scrapped the Aspen after only 2 years. They brought back the Durango for a third gen, and it is selling well, but still no Aspen. Do any of you with automotive insight have any idea if/when we might see an Aspen or that new Jeep Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer?

  22. GM Veteran Says:

    Some comparison stats from The Motor Authority:

    The 2021 Escalade comes with either a 420-horsepower 6.2-liter V-8 making 460 pound-feet of torque or a 277-hp 3.0-liter turbodiesel inline-6.

    The 2020 Navigator ditches the V-8 in favor of a 3.5-liter twin-turbocharged V-6 paired with a 10-speed automatic that makes 450 hp and 510 lb-ft. That’s more potent than the Escalade’s V8.

    Seven inches longer with a longer wheelbase than the outgoing model, the 2021 Escalade is a full inch longer than the Navigator.
    The extra length in the 2021 Cadillac Escalade translates to 10 inches more leg room in the third row and 25.5 cubic feet of cargo room behind it. That’s an improvement of 68 percent, and resolves one of our biggest gripes. The ESV model is even roomier, but the standard Escalade still comes up about six inches short on third-row leg room than the Navigator.

    Maybe the improvement in cargo capacity is what you were thinking of, Larry.

  23. DenMor Says:

    As the stock market collapses, the sales of those ridiculous SUVs will do the same. Look for far more sensible cars to make a comeback.

  24. GM Veteran Says:

    21 – I doubt there will be another Chrysler Aspen. The Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer will be shown sometime this year with production starting in early 2021. They will be based on the Ram pickup platform, which could mean two different size vehicles.

  25. XA351GT Says:

    I got to see the new NSX oops I mean Corvette at the Philly show. My feelings were meh , maybe it was just the color (white) but to me They took away EVERYTHING that made it a Corvette except the name. Again just my opinion ,but it looked like most every other mid engine sports car out there. Now I know they argument, oh but it’s only going to cost this much. Okay fine , but I doubt very much that any car will ever be sold anywhere close to that price unless special ordered as a base stripper model.t as GM promised the Solstice for 20K you’ll be unable to find one on a dealer lot with in 5-10K of that price and that’s if the dealer mark up isn’t present. If I had the choice I’d take my Dad’s 67 convertible every time. Even though the new car is better in every measurable category . Like almost every new car they have no soul .

  26. Larry D. Says:

    19 Your own GM people said how the New Escalade had 50% more interior space / room than even the OLD ESCALADE.

    Their words, not mine.

    At first I did not believe it but I saw it repeated.

  27. Larry D. Says:

    Here! 10 INCHES more legroom, a HUGE increase by ANY standard!!

  28. Larry D. Says:

    Here! YOu think I made it up, really?>?>??

    “…The 2021 Escalade offers more room for passengers and their cargo. A new architecture and new chassis technologies have significantly expanded interior space, offering 40 percent more third-row legroom (34.9 inches / 886 mm) and a 68 percent increase in maximum cargo space behind the third row (25.5 cubic feet / 722 liters) in the standard-length model.

    The dramatic increases in passenger and cargo space are due primarily to a longer wheelbase and longer overall vehicle length, compared to the previous model..”

    Do keep up with your own company’s offerings, GM Vet!

  29. XA351GT Says:

    Someone spending 90-100K on a gussied up Ford SUV doesn’t prove much except that people have more money than brains.

    Gee whiz a EV doesn’t make it’s target numbers , who would have guessed . The brain trusts around the world have thrown their full weight behind these things with little thought to do they actually do what they say or if everyone were to drop fossil fuel vehicles which some European countries are pushing towards how and if the electrical grids would be able to keep up. Think about it America’s biggest market for EVs is California which routinely has brown outs especially in summer just due to normal electrical usage , exactly how would it hold up to 15 million vehicles being plugged in every day?

  30. Larry D. Says:

    And an “Autoweek” comparison. Escalade wins.

  31. Brett Cammack Says:


    Just another manifestation of the inequity of income in America today. For some people that’s pocket change.

    I’m pretty sure that I saw on Autoline This Week once that someone said that widespread adoption of BEVs would not tax the national electrical grid anywhere nearly as much as the widespread adoption of air conditioning did.

  32. GM Veteran Says:

    28 – Nice of you to repeat what I already included in my last post. I direct your attention to the conclusion that even with the ten inch increase, the Escalade still comes up six inches short in third row leg room compared to the Navigator. So, with that shortcoming and the fact that it is only 1 inch longer overall than the Navigator, I guess its not really true that the Navigator “is much smaller” as you state.

    It would be great if you read things as closely as you ask others to. And, I don’t have any “people” at GM. And, its not my company. You make a lot of assumptions for a guy that supposedly deals in facts.

  33. Kit Gerhart Says:

    25 Almost form the start, you could factory order a zero option Solstice, and get it in about 6 weeks. It may be a while, depending on things, but at some point, it will be possible to do likewise with the new Corvette.

    I ordered my minimally optioned 2016 in August 2015, and get it in about 6 weeks. I was able to use the retiree discount, which is, basically, invoice price, and the dealers aren’t allowed to charge absurd “documentation and handling” charges. The most they can add on is, as I remember, $100.

  34. Lambo2015 Says:

    33 Hey how about ordering me one of those C8s using your discount. :-)

    The BYD EV bus order makes me wonder if cities will just go back to cable cars to just provide the busses with juice and then they wouldn’t even need a battery. Or they could have a much smaller battery and be able to reach outside the power cable areas.
    Seems like that would be more efficient at least in a major city.

  35. Kit Gerhart Says:

    34 I don’t think I can do that. The discount isn’t worth that much anyway, except that it greatly simplifies the buying process, by taking negotiation out of the picture.

    I’m surprised that the range of the buses is that big of deal. To my knowledge, the Indy bus company has very minimal service overnight, so I’d think they could charge and get a days worth of use, even if the range is substantially less than 275 miles. They should get some money back, though, if the buses don’t have the promised range.

  36. Kit Gerhart Says:

    From the Cadillac press release:

    “A new architecture and new chassis technologies have significantly expanded interior space, offering 40 percent more third-row legroom (34.9 inches / 886 mm) and a 68 percent increase in maximum cargo space behind the third row (25.5 cubic feet / 722 liters) in the standard-length model.”

    Interesting wording, especially the mention of “maximum cargo space behind the 3rd row.” That seems to indicate that the 3rd seat moves fore and aft, so you can trade 3rd row leg room for cargo space, and vice versa. Of course, that makes sense, as does a 2nd row seat that can move for and after, to trade between 2nd and 3rd row leg room.

  37. Thirsten Says:

    Larry D.

    You need to use your grey matter before attacking others. Claiming that the overall interior is 50% larger borders on stupidity.

  38. Pam Says:

    I suggest one comment per person per day. There seem to be a few guys out there with nothing else to do but chat among themselves. Remember, it’s OK to just shut up.

  39. XA351GT Says:

    Kit at 33 that is my point unless you special order these cars you will never find one that way on the lot. So to advertise them as such is a bit of a bait and switch. When they came out I went to 4 different dealerships and the lowest on the lot price was 23.5K .

  40. XA351GT Says:

    Pam this ” IS ” a discussion forum . commenting back and forth is what it is here for.

  41. Kit Gerhart Says:

    39 The Indiana dealer where I bought my Corvette stocked a few low option, 1LT Corvettes the last couple years of the C7, but early on in 2014 model year, I don’t think they could even order low option ones. I’ll see what the early C8s are, but I suspect they will all be “optioned up.”

    I don’t remember what Solstices were at the dealer near me, but if I’d wanted one, I would have just ordered it. I suspect most of them in dealer stock were automatic, and had a few other options.

    As far as “bait and switch,” if a dealer advertises “Corvettes for $55,995, they should have them, or at least one in stock that for that price. If a manufacturer states a base MSRP of $55,995, I wouldn’t expect most dealers to have one at that price, and don’t see a problem.

  42. merv Says:

    I love the corvette,exhaust tips and all. I think GM hit this one “out of the ball park”.

  43. buildmore2doors Says:

    Overall I think the new Corvette is good looking, and living in the Detroit area I have seen many in person, my only observation is that the roof looks like an elephant sat on it and crushed it down too far when it drives by me on the highway, no mid-engine Ferrari I ever saw on the highway gave me that impression. Maybe it is to give better aero numbers, but it looks weird from that perspective.

  44. joe Says:

    Put the name of an exotic European car on the Corvette and the reviewers would rave about the styling. You can always find someone who will criticize a masterpiece.

  45. buildmore2doors Says:

    Even “masterpieces” have flaws since nothing is perfect, it just takes a sharp eye to find them, not everyone is qualified or experienced enough to see them, and some see them but refuse to acknowledge them because of built in biases toward certain brands or categories. Here’s to those who can tell the difference.

  46. Kit Gerhart Says:

    43 What do you mean by “the roof looks like an elephant sat on it and crushed it down too far”? Does the roof slope down from the sides of the car toward the middle?

  47. Larry D. Says:

    On Monday I will have to rent a truck, the items to move are mostly books and papers, very heavy boxes that don’t take too much space. I first reserved a Budget truck but had a cargo limit of 4,300 lbs (16′) and then a UHaul 20′ with 5,700 lbs, both gas with tiny 35 gallon fuel tanks and LOUSY mileage (6-7 mpg loaded and 8-10 empty).

    However, my worksheet with the 200 or so heavy boxes and their weights showed that the total weight would be well over 7,000 lbs so I canceled that too, and found a much taller, bigger truck at Penske, 22′, twice the daily rate, same high per mile rate of 79c a mile, but FAR more fuel efficient with the DIESEL, it gets “up to 13 MPG” so I assume 12 MPG empty and 9 loaded, or maybe 10. and it has an allowable cargo weight of 10,000 lbs, should be more than enough to carry all my stuff, and probably half the truck will be empty.

    I have not driven as big a truck ever, in 1982 I drove a shorter Ryder (probably diesel) manual truck from the Boston area to MI, one way, and in 1987 a smaller truck to relocate from my rental to the townhouse I had bought then. THis is also taller than the other trucks, 13+’ or so.

  48. Kit Gerhart Says:

    In 2003 I rented a U-Haul truck, probably 20 feet at most, and it was diesel. I don’t remember the rental cost, but fuel a very small portion of the cost for the 70-80 mile trip. At that time, fuel cost might have been about the same for diesel and gas, because diesel was about 30% more at the time. The diesel VW I had didn’t save me much money on fuel, but it was neat only having to refuel every 600-700 miles.

  49. Bishop Says:

    Actually, several renewable energy projects had to be slowed down in the recent past. Texas, which is the number one generator utilizing wind power had to slow up the development and installation of more wind generators because there’s a problem: Over production. It’s hard to build the infrastructure to get all that energy to people. There’s a serious possibility that turbines will have to be turned off at times to keep from overloading the system at their current level. And that is just from wind power. There hasn’t been much done on solar generation yet in Texas.

    They aren’t too far off being able to produce more power than is necessary for Texas usage and storage of that much power hasn’t really been developed yet.

    Calif had a similar problem a while back. So the infrastructure – in Texas’ case – building power lines to New Mexico is one answer – but that needs to be done first and then they can “export”/sell the excess to NM.

    Solar generation has been the big grower in Fla and FPL is in the process of converting an oil burner gen plant (built in the late 70′s) to solar as we speak. They bought it just a year or so ago and have a plan for ’30 by 30′ – 30 million solar panels by 2030. FPL is one of 4 major power gen companies in Fla.

    It’s going to take some oversight and planning to develop the best overall grid – but that has needed to be done for a long time. As long as the massive sale of EV’s doesn’t happen overnight (due to manufacturer capability / availability it won’t anyway), it shouldn’t be too difficult to coordinate. But we need intelligent leadership in Washington.

  50. Kit Gerhart Says:

    It looks like photovoltaic solar produces about 90 MW/square mile. The listing I saw must be “average,” including night time, cloudy days, etc., since the output calculates out to only about 3-4 watts/square foot, while most of what I’ve read is that solar cells produce about 20 watts/square foot in bright sunlight. It would seem that a big part of using solar and wind efficiently, would be to store power, and until there is a good way to do that, have reasonably efficient gas turbine plants that can be quickly started up, and shut down as needed.

  51. Larry D. Says:

    48 Uhaul did not have diesels or trucks with more than 5,700 lbs cargo weight. This morning I got a Freightliner, very noisy and big, air brakes, tires at 105 PSI, does not have a ramp but a hydraulic lift in the back, quite convenient. The tank is only 50 gallons but I should be able to fuel it in MI and never in Canada. But the fuel cost is nothing compared to their per mile 0.79 charge, for 550 miles. I will be reimbursed. The total bill would be over $810, but because they did not open their office this morning at 7:30 or 8 AM but a sub came in at 9 AM, they gave me a 25% discount (I already had 12% AAA discount, they made it 25 for my trouble, but the employer will benefit, and me only as far as my travel expenses do not exceed the $8000 (before withholdings, if any) I was given.

  52. Larry D. Says:

    the truck is 22′ and quite tall, with a limit of 10,000 lbs. My stuff will be between 7 and 8,000 lbs. I wish I rented a smaller truck, but was worried about a tire blowout if I overloaded it. IF I got a trailer, many much smaller trucks have a 7,500 lb towing limit, which might do the trick too, but I doubt it’s any better or convenient.

    This truck makes very wide turns and is 10 times noisier than my diesel sedan. Too many rattles too. Has less than 70k miles.

  53. buildmore2doors Says:

    46 It looks like the roof is too low in comparison to the rest of the body, as if something large pushed down on the roof and they left it that way. Whenever one of them passes me on the highway the impression I get is that the roof should have more of an arch to it to make it look like it is in harmony with the rest of the body, but all I can think of as it goes by it that it is too low. It doesn’t give me this impression when I see it from ground level or in pictures, but when I am in my vehicle, a 2012 Jeep Liberty that sits a little higher than an average sedan, that is the impression I get. It just looks weird to me. Maybe it’s just me….

  54. Kit Gerhart Says:

    53 Most of the time, I’ll be seeing them from a little lower than you will, since I still drive cars. I should be seeing the Covettes soon. I recently read that customer deliveries will begin in late February.


    What the designer of the corvette exhaust was stating is that…When you isolate your view to just this one single area it makes sense to have square tips. And that sums up the Corvette and GM design overall. When you isolate to specific areas the design makes sense….Overall the design is not cohesive because they are too fussy with the details. Your nit pick is spot on Sean. I would still buy a new Corvette though, even with the non-cohesive fussy details.