AD #2866 – Steel Import Tariffs Here to Stay; All-New Opel Mokka Debuts; Tesla Wants to Produce Its Own Batteries

June 25th, 2020 at 11:42am

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Listen to “AD #2866 – Steel Import Tariffs Here to Stay; All-New Opel Mokka Debuts; Tesla Wants to Produce Its Own Batteries” on Spreaker.

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Runtime: 9:09

0:07 Dodge & Kia Top JD Power’s IQS
0:48 Be Careful with JD Power IQS
1:37 Steel Tariffs Here to Stay
2:28 Lordstown Endurance Debuts Today
2:43 Updated Ford F-150 Drops Tonight
3:40 All-New Opel Mokka Modernized
4:50 Convertibles As Safe As Non-Convertibles
5:52 Jaguar Remakes Classic Engine Block
6:59 Tesla Wants to Produce Its Own Batteries
7:34 BMW Opens New 3D Printing Center

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203 Comments to “AD #2866 – Steel Import Tariffs Here to Stay; All-New Opel Mokka Debuts; Tesla Wants to Produce Its Own Batteries”

  1. NormT Says:

    Lordstown Motors Endurance announcement is line at noon on YouTube. Or watch it later.

  2. Ziggy Says:

    Here’s my Ziggy Insight for discussion until the show comes back on July 6th: Who among you would be interested in a modern version of the BMW 2002 sports sedan, with modern mechanicals but sticking to the basic premise of a two door sedan that was fun to drive and easy to own? What would you change from the original concept of the 2002? I for one would add all wheel drive for us snow belters, but not much else, save for all the mandatory nanny systems. How about you?

  3. Bob Wilson Says:

    I buy cars for their efficiency and architecture. ‘J.D. Powers’ and ‘Consumer Reports’ are just purchase confirmation after delivery.

    As for steel tariffs, we have a chance to vote on that decision in November.

  4. Barry T Says:

    It seems like the JD Power IQS confirms your Tesla production line comments from the other day, John.

    Meanwhile, kuddos to Kia for persisting to stay up on that list, and also to Dodge for “working the bugs out”!

  5. Drew Says:

    I fully agree with John that the JDP Durability Survey is a better indicator of vehicle quality. But I’ll go a step further. A new vehicle should be trouble-free for the full duration of the loan. With some loans at 7 years, I’ll take some liberty to round-up to 100,000 miles as my minimum expectation for a defect-free vehicle. I expect to perform regular maintenance (tires, brakes, blades, etc.) during those 100,000 miles, but I also expect the chassis (steering/suspension), engine, trans, axles/diff, HVAC, and all electrical components to fully function.

    In a car or CUV, I expect the vehicle to last over 150,000 miles without major repair. In a pickup or SUV, my expectation grows to 250,000 miles. I suspect some people have more stringent expectations; other people with less stringent expectations.

  6. ChuckGrenci Says:

    I believe initial quality as well as durability surveys provide insightful data for the buying public. Generally, when buying new, the first ownership months are getting acquainted with the vehicle and finding fault if present; this is important to know. Durability is equally, or more so important to the buyer, that is buying the vehicle, more so than leasing. I’m saying that both can be helpful, and with the variety of reporting entities, a more informed data can be reviewed so one can research the vehicle they may want to purchase. What would be more helpful, would be the inclusion of what the defect(s) are; those numbers more define annoyances from actual defects.

  7. Kit Gerhart Says:

    2. I’d like a 2002, but with a more modern engine, like the one used in the 4 cylinder M3 of the 90s-early 90s. An extra, taller 6th gear would be nice to lower noise and improve mpg on the highway.

  8. Lambo2015 Says:

    Oh John what have you done? Larry is going to lose his head over this JD powers report. Tesla dead last. How can that be they know exactly what they are doing when it comes to building cars better than the regular domestics. Tesla is only competing in a segment that only accounts for 2.7% of global sales. Imagine how they would struggle if they had to compete with ICEs.
    Not to mention his coveted MB which finished below Mazda and Jag just above Volvo. And although I agree with John that everything should work perfectly for 3 months it goes to show that obviously some of these manufacturers vehicles do not. Nothing more annoying than to buy a brand new vehicle and having to return to dealership within the first couple months for a repair. Doesn’t elude to a feeling of quality when items are missed from the factory.

  9. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I’m surprised that Dodge did so well in the IQS. Everything they sell is old, so they have “practice” at building them, but still, finishing on top is impressive, given that they often are near the bottom.

    I’m not surprised that Tesla finished at the bottom, given that my friend describes the paint job of his new Model S as having “dust in the clear coat.” Maybe most of the reported problems with Teslas are things like that, rather than “it won’t go,” but crappy paint jobs would show up in survey results. The two annoying rattles that came with my 2018 Camry would have shown up in my response, if I’d received the survey. The car has been flawless since I fixed the rattles, though.

  10. Lambo2015 Says:

    Awww members of the international steel industry lost money..(no tears here) Wait they said they passed the increase on to the automakers, so exactly how did they lose money when you pass that loss on? Sounds like whining. And if the price of a vehicle went up $1000 to bring jobs back here to the states then I’m okay with it. Long overdue action.. You don’t just keep selling the land cause of money or soon you have no land to farm.
    Imagine the next world war and we need steel to build ships and tanks.. Hey enemy will sell us some steel?

  11. TERRY Says:

    Autoline likes Tesla, and perhaps that is why they didn’t report that Tesla had the worst IQS results of major car manufacturers. Their cars had 250 problems per 100 vehicles, in comparison to 166 problems for the industry average. Some states allow the manufacturer to block the data, but JDS finally got enough data from the states that Tesla could not block, which allowed JDS to report on Tesla this year. This information is in Today’s Wall Street Journal.

  12. Kit Gerhart Says:

    10. The number of jobs steel making generates is nothing, compared to the auto industry, and many other segments.

    The US is currently the 4th biggest steel producer, and has plenty of capacity for any wars that might come up. Of course, if we have a real war, everyone will be dead in a few minutes, so it won’t matter much anyway.

  13. John McElroy Says:

    #11. Uh, Terry, go back and look at our report in today’s show. To quote our own news item: “Tesla came in dead last, way behind everyone else.”

  14. Victor West Says:

    A new “world war” would not last long enough to build anything.

  15. TERRY Says:

    I guess I missed that. My bad.

  16. Lambo2015 Says:

    12 That makes as much sense as saying we shouldn’t worry about growing food here cause farmers account for far less than the majority of people who use the food. Of course the employees of the steel industry pale in comparison to the auto industry. Same could be said for almost any semi-raw material. Doesn’t make those jobs any less important or desirable.

  17. XA351GT Says:

    As you said everything should work on a brand new car especially in the 1st 3 months , So the fact that TESLA came in dead LAST Should be a major concern for those that have bought or pal on buying one. If initial quality is that bad what happens over a long time of ownership? I’m sure our resident expert on all things Tesla will be here shortly to debunk all the facts.

  18. MJB Says:

    Enjoy your time away, John!

    I’m glad you pointed out how deceptive the IQS can be, because I was shocked to see my brand Lexus down in 12th position – below Jeep!

    This is great for Kia though. Regretably, it’ll likely take another ten straight years of that before the brand snobs start taking them a bit more seriously.

  19. Kit Gerhart Says:

    16. We need to grow food here, because we are the best in the world at growing food, have land to grow crops, etc. If we didn’t grow food, there would be more of a global food shortage than there already is.

    We don’t need to make more steel, to produce a handful of additional jobs, and have millions more people downwind of the mills breathing nasty air, when there is plenty of global steel making capacity, and we can get it cheaper elsewhere.

  20. joe Says:

    It has been said many times over that whoever produces the best battery wins the EV race. So where does that leave Tesla? Now, that Tesla sees a huge problem coming, they will try to convince you they can overcome it by producing their own. Good luck trying to beat what’s in the link below.

  21. Barry T Says:

    It seems that ANY quality problem on a Tesla could be exacerbated by sparce availability of services centers (then parts), or none, in some states.

    The Tesla owners I know have a lot of patience though, as they appreciate the technology leadership in so many areas.

  22. Kit Gerhart Says:

    18. I suspect some brands, Lexus being one of them, get dinged in these surveys, not because something broke, but because the electronics, and controls in general, are not user friendly.

  23. JWH Says:

    John, Sean, & the balance of the Autoline Crew – Enjoy your July 4th (plus a day) week off. I’m sure you will all come back recharged. In addition, both John & Sean do an excellent job presenting the material & no issues which of you are presenting.

  24. Carl Says:

    Opel? Why report on Opel? Are they even sold in the US?

  25. Kit Gerhart Says:

    24. Autoline is about the GLOBAL auto industry, not just the US, or even North American industry.

  26. JoeS Says:

    19 Kit. When we import steel from places like China, India and the old Soviet block countries we export and double the pollution. The steel industry in the US is relatively clean by comparison. The earth is not big enough for us to totally ignore what goes on around the rest of the world. Disclaimer: Yes, I work in the American steel industry.

  27. cwolf Says:

    According to my close friend, who is pres. of a large coke company, said steel production is on the increase and expects a gradual rise in the future. U.S. plants are not what they once were and are getting cleaner with the use of electric power and not with dirty coal

  28. cwolf Says:

    I meant furnaces, not ovens

  29. Kit Gerhart Says:

    26,27 Yeah, US steel making is cleaner than in most places, and we are being “selfish,” in a way, when we import steel from China, India, etc., and stick their people with the pollution.

    27 Isn’t electricity used mainly to melt scrap, not produce new steel from ore? Coke, ore, and limestone are still used for producing “new” steel raw iron, and BOP to make steel from it.

  30. cwolf Says:

    A customer survey of the new model Y reported many troubles Tesla is facing. Most complaints were fit and paint issues. Either paint was too hard (chips/scratches) or too soft( bad blend/premature wear marks). Reported that doors and hoods barely closed or had huge gaps. One customer’s seats even lakes all the bolts to secure them!
    Clearly no one is inspecting what goes out the door. Only after hearing about the terrible quality did Musk send a text to the employees to do better. Many are refusing deliver and rightly so considering what the car costs. Tesla won’t last in the long run if they continue these unheard of practices……
    sure don’t act like a car manufacturer!

  31. cwolf Says:

    Kit, I’m still learning the many processes and can only offer broad answers. Yes scrap is included in the making of new steel, but again, I think it depends upon the type. I really don’t know how all this fits in together, but the grade of coal also has a lot to do with the type of steel. I’m curious enough to find answers to your questions and will share with you what I have learned.

  32. cwolf Says:

    I don’t know about you guys but this renewed spread if the virus has me worried enough to expand upon the precautions I already practice. Not sure if we acted too quick too soon, but a lack of counter measures and precautions sure are lacking in many states and the number grows daily. Thus far, greed has dominated over the advice of those who know and of plain common sense.

  33. joe Says:


    Larry will find a good reason why Tesla quality is rated at the bottom of the JD Power’s list, I’m sure — and it’s not because those cars are built in tents.

  34. joe Says:

    Munro & Associates can probably avoid Tesla an embarrassment by tearing the car down and say it’s a great car no matter what, and maybe it is?

  35. Kit Gerhart Says:

    31. TIA for info from what you learn. My father retired from a now long gone steel company in Kokomo, IN. Their raw material was scrap. For years, they melted it using open hearth furnaces, which burned natural gas most of the time, and a mix of gas and oil at times in the winter when home heating needs were high, and the gas company couldn’t supply the needs of the steel mill. Then, I think in the late 1960s or early 70s, they replaced the open hearths with electric furnaces to melt the scrap. They shut down sometime in the ’80s.

    The end products during my memory were wire, nails, farm fence, chain link fence, sheets (individual ~4×8 foot sheets, not rolled strip like is now used for cars, washing machines, etc.). There were intermediate process of pouring ingots, rolling them into billets, and then rods. I suspect every aspect of how they did thing would be inefficient and obsolete now, but some of it might still be done the same way in eastern Europe, China, India, etc.

  36. Kit Gerhart Says:

    32. Since mid March, I haven’t been going to restaurants, and have mostly gotten grocery store food using “curb side” pickup, and have had it delivered a few times. I was about ready to start going to restaurants occasionally with outside seating, but with the resurgence, that’s on hold for a while. It’s not as bad where I am now in Indiana, as in Florida, where new cases, and hospitalizations are on the rise, including in my county.

  37. cwolf Says:

    I live on Lake Erie and Huron river flowing into it. Twice we ate during the week and felt safe, but everything is packed by vacationers on weekends; No masks nor safe distancing.
    All logic goes out the window from Friday thru Sunday. The thought of what these careless folks bring makes the days ahead in my town scary!

  38. cwolf Says:

    I have been noticing rust on trucks after only a few years old.
    Ram trucks seem to rust along the bottom sill frame. Ford’s rust there too but also along the bottom tail gate land fender arches. The rear painted bumpers often loose paint.
    I don’t recall the maker but white and silver colors have a tendency to peel off in sheets. I would expect these problems resolved by now.

  39. ChuckGrenci Says:

    On the Covid resurgence: relaxing restrictions AND it’s been two week since the protests have begun. With my wife and myself over 65, and my wife on chemo-therapy, we both are on tenterhooks until this subsides and/or we get a vaccine. We have been hermits for nigh on four months with only myself doing the shopping (with mask and wipe down of products before entering the house); overkill maybe but we are taking this extremely seriously. Wish others would too.

  40. Larry D. Says:

    I think we should take all those silly surveys and throw them out the window. They deserve to be, when .. Kia of all makes and… DOdge of bankrupt Chrysler COrp “top” the whatever “rankings” (usually statistically meaningless, flawed definitions etc, OWNER REPORTED crap.

    By comparison I was looking at a couple of CR Auto issues of the past (2015, 16) and they had a ridiculously labeled table “besty and worst brands”, very misleading, and out of 28 makes Dodge, Jeep, and FIat were the VERY LAST of them, and MINI barely above them at 25, 3 from the bottom.

    They are a sad joke. NOT newsworthy. ESPECIALLY all these JD Power surveys that automakers PAY Power to conduct.

  41. Larry D. Says:

    The alarmist, irresponsible media keep scaring the hell out of their viewers by claiming the US has a “secong wave” and a ton of cases etc.

    But when you check a SERIOUS Site, like that of the FINANCIAL TIMES, which I do every day, and see their excellent graphic (a pic IS worth 100 words, you will see that the FACTS tell a totally different story,

    that it is LATIN AMERICA now, NOT Europe or the US, which has 52% (!!!!) of all world CV deaths, while the US has a tiny 12%.

  42. Larry D. Says:

    20 Hey Debbie Downer,

    Will you EVER understand that the war for BEV dominance was won YEARS ago, and the winner has a DEVASTATING LEAD over any other automaker? AND that this winner is a 100% AMERICAN Auto company, which started from nothing to be worth more than GM andf Ford COMBINED? And do you know who this UNDISPUTED Winner is? Hint: You mentioned it in your comment. LOL.

  43. Larry D. Says:

    34 right.. it’s a vast right wing conspiracy, as Hillary would say.. and never mind that Tesla UNLIKE all the LOSERS other automakers, NEVER SPENT A DIME ON ADS. THINK once in your long life, WHO has INTEREST in presenting CRAPPY CARS from the Big 3 as “cars of the year” and writing glowing reviews for these SAME CRAPPY Cars? The ones who get sponsorship, or the ones like MUNRO who DO NOT????

  44. Larry D. Says:

    36 Regardless of the kind of restaurant, dining out must be one of the worst values out there. Some things in the US Economy are DIRAT cheap (gas and diesel, of course, electronics, clothes made in bangla desh at $1 a day wages) BUT others are terrible values AND UNHEALTHY ( the food, not the risk of CV only) to boot. AND you have no clue what they give you, the dishes have NO labels with the ingredients and how much salt and other crap they contain, and usually it is 3 times the FDA recommended maximum!

    Before CV I very rarely ate out, and NEVER just by myself. Now, not even that.

    PS the best thing is cooking yourself, it is really easy and can be very fast, but if not, you can still order take out, but it will have all the above disadvantages.

  45. Larry D. Says:

    Filled my tank, Diesel was only 10 cents cheaper than gas, BUT I also got a 40 c per gallon Kroger discount, and a 2% credit card one, so I paid exactly $1.802 a gallon. Lowest ever. Refineries have shifted their mix, or/and people drive more.

  46. Kit Gerhart Says:

    41. The US is not all equal, re. covid-19. Houston, TX has a huge resurgence, as do many parts of FL, and a number of other areas. FL, as a state, is spiking in new cases, and is starting so spike in deaths, according to this Johns-Hopkins graph.

    Yeah, as a region, South America is doing the worst, and as countries, Chile, Peru, and Brazil, which an FT chart shows very well.

  47. Kit Gerhart Says:

    44. I completely agree that restaurants are not a good value, just as a four cylinder E-Class for $60K is not a good value compared to a Camry LE hybrid for $30K. Some of us just like going to restaurants, or did before the plague arrived.

    Diesel is 29 cents more than regular here in central Indiana, including at a nearby Kroger. I’ll have to check state tax in MI and IN to see if that would explain the difference. Diesel is currently about 50 cents more than regular in my area of Florida.

  48. Kit Gerhart Says:

    41. You consider the US’s 12% of covid deaths to be “tiny” when the US has only 4.4% of the world’s population?

  49. Larry D. Says:

    48 Well, DUH!!!! The US has TESTED MILLIONS and, with a few exceptions in Europe and Asia, the rest of the world has tested too few. INDIA AVOIDED a bloodbath by totally shutting down, but it is NOT “cost free”, it cost it tremendously in famine, child labor and all kinds of other negatives, AND when it is fully working again, many more cases will appear.

    The Newsmedia are extremely misleading on the US situation, they act as if it is a second New York-NJ with their 50,000 deaths a while ago, but if you look at the fatalities, the whole of the USA has LESS deaths than just New York CITY alone had (MAnhattan!) during their rise and peak of the epidemic, and NYC conditions are NOT present in most states.

    If the vulnerable continue to stay home and the healthy keep the distances and wear the stupid feedbag WHEN NEEDED, the pandemic will be contained.

    Not long ago the alarmist journalists were asking questions at the WH briefings ASSUMING we would have 2 million deaths, just because a stupid model (garbage in, garbage out) predicted so. Now we have the 120-140k expected WITH all necessary measures and sacrifices, but of course they need viewers to make a living, and viewers will not bother if the news are not alarming

    In addition, the US population is more vulnerable than others, ironically, because we live longer, MUCH longer than the Russians, for example, Male life Exp in Russia is just 65, and it was only 60 not long ago, and the virus is far more lethal in over 65s. Furthermore, the US has large sections of its population nutritionally illiterate, taking huge amounts of sugar and salt in their diet, and then they get High blood pressure and diabetes, and if they catch CV they will have a real bad time surviving it. I have blamed the FDA many times for not having a limit on the sugar, and the sugar industry have been major criminals in this matter, funding Acad studies that aquitted Sugar and blamed .. eggs and fat.

    On top of this, one of these sickly minorities (Blacks) had a rumor that they were… immune to CV, while in reality it was exactly the opposite.

    BTW, compare the “free” health care Italy and Spain and France and the UK, with the US. They had to decide who lives and who is left to die, because they had few facilities and beds and equipment, while NO US patient ever was in this cruel situation.

  50. Larry D. Says:

    47 You are only half right (about the restaurants, not about the Mercs), and you decide without even data and even just a test drive. Just because a stupid Impala or Camry have 4 wheels, as an E class has, and similar or even larger dimensions, does NOT mean they are the same product. This is LUDICROUS, epecially in the case of the IMMORTAL Mercedeses, go around the world and see those 60s models still been driven hard and daily. The Merc is forever, while the Impala and the Camry are DISPOSABLE Kleenexes.

    My E class is 14 years old (a 2007) and feels and drives LIKE NEW with the minimum of maintenance, and is 100% trouble free except for regular wear on tires, brakes etc. My Accord coupe was LESS reliable (!) and even the Civic, which had stellar reliability when I would drive it int he summers, I don;t know about the other 9 months when my parents would drive it, if it had problems, they would not tell me. (they would actually hide the problems from me, when they had an accident and fixed it, so I don’t know about any repairs).

    FOr me of course this point is totally mute, since I paid a laughable $10k for my E class and you paid $30k for your camry, and I have at least twice the car you have, no matter what you believe.

  51. Larry D. Says:

    BTW in MI, I will be paying far less than half of what I currently pay for our awful “no fault” insurance, because there is a new law on July 1 and if you waive your own PIP (they let you do so if you have health care and accident coverage from the U or similar employer), I called them yesterday and they told me my premium would decrease by $251 for 6 months, and it is LESS than half what I last paid, less than $200 for 6 months under the new law. All I need to submit is a form letter by email from my services provider.

    ..”What we would need is a COB letter from your health insurance to confirm coordination and that you are covered even though you are 66 years old…”

  52. Larry D. Says:

    BTW2, is it so hard to make face masks that are TRANSPARENT? The ones politicians and many others use look totally ridiculous, like Bank robbers, Or Horses with feedbags, or terrorists,whichever is worst. confirms Woody Allen’s dictum “Politics is Hollywood for ugly people”. (I think it was he who said that). MAYBE there are problems with a see thru mask, maybe it changes the face for the worse, like those socks bank robbers wear in the movies.

  53. Kit Gerhart Says:

    50. Those ’60s Mercs you are talking about must be in a desert in the middle east. I remember them in Indiana, and with the road salt, they rusted out worse than Chevys of the time.

    Your ’07 E-Class drives like new, and my ’89 Dodge Caravan drives like new. Most cars will continue to drive like new, as long as they receive the maintenance they need.

    Your Benz is twice the car, by what measure? They are about the same size, but the Camry has a bigger trunk and more rear leg room. The performance is about the same, but the Camry uses less, and cheaper fuel, cheaper at least where I live. Yeah, at the price you paid, your car was a great value, and is a great car, but to use a term you often use, comparing value of a car bought new with one bought used is “apples and oranges.”

  54. Kit Gerhart Says:

    49. So you don’t think there is health care “rationing” in the U.S.? You are much more naive than I realized.

    Covid was bad in Italy for a number of reasons, an aging demographic, high density living, many mixed generation households, people from the north heading south after the infections were detected, taking it with them, and other reasons. NYC shared some of that, along with the virus “arriving early” both places.

  55. Kit Gerhart Says:

    52. It would be hard to make masks that are transparent, but that air would go through, while having small droplets filtered out. Saran Wrap would not have the correct characteristics for a mask.

  56. Larry D. Says:

    The corner Speedway station today had the cheapest Regular gas at $2.159, same exact price as for Diesel. BUT if I had the gas E class, it would only take PREMIUM gas, which is probably $2.69

  57. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Diesel tax is about 4 cents more than gas in IN, and 1 cent more in MI. I still can’t figure why diesel is about 30 cents more than regular in IN, but about the same in neighboring MI.

  58. Larry D. Says:

    54 I spoke very precisely. I said that NOBODY in the USA that needed a VENTILATOR and a hospital bed was denied one, NOBODY. WHile even in ITALY, doctors of their so-called ‘free’ health care mess of a system had to make CRUEL DECISIONS who to try to save and who would surely DIE. I am sure you understood that. What does the above CRUEL FACT have to do with your (undefined to me) mention of any “rationing”?

    57 it’s not just the tax, it depends on supply and refinery decisions, as well as on demand, and even the time of the year. I still did much better at $1.802 at Kroger, because of my discounts, than if I went to the Speedway where the two fuels were equal. (diesel and the cheapest regular)

  59. Kit Gerhart Says:

    56 Does a gas E-Class really need premium, or is it like a Corvette, where premium is “recommended,” but regular is fine for normal driving?

  60. Larry D. Says:

    con’d on hospital beds, now in India many CV patients have to share a BED with another patient! I wonder if they splice the ventilator to have both hooked, they have done that in the US but patients were in different beds, one on each.

  61. Larry D. Says:

    BTW on the claim that “A Camry or an Accord is just like an E class (because the dimensions may be similar or whatever) and therefore the E is a “bad value” (LOL) allegedly, Buyers of new E classes at $60k can play the same game, they can claim that a Bentley Continental GT is three or four times as expensive and actually it is a much smaller inside 2-door coupe or convertible, and why stop there, that a Rolls Wraith coupe is also smaller inside (according to the silly EPA interior room non-measurement rules) and costs 5 or 8 times the $60k depending on options.

    The cars that seem expensive even used are Porsches, but I have not test driven one lately to see if the premium is justified. Some of that has to do with scarcity and low production numbers, Ferrari especially played this game very successfully, some of its V8s were more expensive USED a few years ago.

  62. Kit Gerhart Says:

    58. Why are “supply and refinery decisions” so different between southern Michigan, and north central Indiana not far away?

  63. Kit Gerhart Says:

    61. Where, exactly did I claim that “A Camry or an Accord is just like an E class”? That’s right, I made no such claim, nor did I even allude that they are alike. The Benz is rear drive, (most now sold in US are 4wd), the interior of the Benz is nicer, etc. but for most people, they are functionally very similar. For brand snobs, of course, any Benz, including the crappy CLA, is much better.

    The only Porsche I have driven recently is a base Cayman, with a manual transmission. Even with few options, it is a bad value, near $60K new, and is noisy, doesn’t ride too well, and has some quirky controls. It is great fun to drive, though, and looks great (to me). Also, of course, the Cayman, and even those Porsche SUV things, have brand snob appeal.

  64. Lambo2015 Says:

    Some nice new features being released on the New 2021 Ford F-150. One of the coolest things available on the hybrid model in addition to a 700 mile range is the power outlets in the bed. This includes a 240V outlet.

  65. Lambo2015 Says:

    The 2021 F-150 has some pretty nice new features and one of the coolest from the hybrid version in addition to the 700 mile range is the plugs in the bed 120V and 240V.

  66. Carl Says:

    #25 My point was why bother reporting on a car brand [Opal] that isn’t available in the US. No one cares if we have no way of buying the brand.

  67. Ed Says:

    John you spoke a few years back on all the different versions of unleaded fuel across the country, how so many types created regional shortages and cost increase, maybe this is a good time to review that again and see if there could be a streamlining

  68. JR Says:

    Well the NASCAR noose pictures have finally been published. It is indeed a full fledged noose, not just a loop at the end of a rope. You don’t inadvertently make a knot like that. It’s disappointing that it was left there for the last 8 months with nobody changing it into a conventional loop.
    Also, it was interesting to read that it was NASCAR that withheld the picture, not the “evil” media.

  69. Kit Gerhart Says:

    64. It will be interesting to learn more about the new F-150, like the mpg of the hybrid. Also, will the engine need to be running all the time for the AC outlets to be powered with the non-hybrids? The inverter would, presumably, be powered by the 12v system, but for a 2 KW inverter, the alternator would need to be unusually large, ~200 amp. The engine could be cycled on and off to keep the battery charged and inverter working, especially with low inverer loads, but if they do this, would they use a “deep cycle” battery as standard equipment if you get the inverter?

    The inverter would be powered by the big battery with the hybrid, and could be kept charged by cycling the engine off and on. That should work well, and at a smaller inverter load, the engine shouldn’t need to run a lot. The article says the battery of the hybrid is 1.5 kWh, which is surprisingly small, though. That’s Prius size.

  70. Lambo2015 Says:

    67 Yea I was actually glad to hear that this was not a case of a double knot being blown out of proportion. Also good to hear that this had been there for some time, so it was not done out of malice or to send any kind of massage.

    I remember as a child in school we used to take the strings from the window shades and tie nooses on the end. Wasn’t done for any other reason than boredom and a cool new knot you don’t learn in boyscouts. I grew up watching many westerns with my dad. Hanging people was what they did with criminals and nothing to do with race. Certainly times have changed and had this been done specifically because Wallace was in that garage stall then the culprit should have been booted from NASCAR. All in all glad that was not the case.

  71. Bob Wilson Says:

    Even quality has requirements:
    1) cost per mile energy cost
    2) cost per year to replace moving parts
    3) cost per accident to deal with medical costs
    4) cost per decade to deal with body corrosion

    These are not in the JD Powers or Consumer Reports criteria. But anyone who wants my purchase dollars has to address them in that order. Everything else is useless noise.

  72. Larry D. Says:

    I thought this was Friday’s show but it is yesterday’s. Still, once more, with feeling: JD Power surveys are absolutely WORTHLESS. Any fool who buys a Kia, a Dodge or, especially that pathetic Sonic, fully deserves what he or she gets. Most other owner-reported surveys are hardly worthy of all the attention they get.

  73. Larry D. Says:

    69 I don’t understand what those four COSTS have anything to do with either QUALITY or RELIABILITY. The three are three very different concepts. I think you are confused.

    65. Re OPEL. GM lost $20 billion (probably more if you account, as you should, for inflation) propping up this UTTER LOSER for decades, UNTIL FINALLY it got it under Mary Barra and closed it down, and, amazingly, the even greater fools at PSA bought it (and good luck with that turkey).

    I find it amazing that even such a huge disaster as the 2008 GM BANKRUPTCY did NOT force it to throw OPEL, a major contributor to GM’s woes, out the window.

    As long as VPs with big egos protect their loser brands from extinction, there will be NO Darwinian Natural Selection or Survival of the fittest or any improvement in the herd. And this goes perfectly well with our age of political correctness where every little loser gets a participation trophy and excellence is NO MORE the goal, but has been replaced with multiculturalism, diversity, and all that jazz. Then you wonder why the students from CHINA, who do hard math (and TONS of it) from a veery young age, ace all the tests and the exams of our Universities to such an extent, that an also CHinese Professor and Dean and now Provost of another U told us “Maybe we should have TWO grading scales, one for the chinese students and one for the (struggling rednecks and the like)”

  74. Kit Gerhart Says:

    70 This is the last show until July 6. I guess you didn’t watch the video, or read the transcript.

    I don’t understand the big disconnect between JD Power and CR surveys. Very few FCA products come out as high as “average” in CR’s reliability survey, even for the first year, but Dodge topped the Power “initial quality” survey. I’m not surprised that Tesla didn’t do well, given what I’ve heard from my friend about his new Model S with the conspicuously substandard paint job. I suspect he, and most Tesla buyers have read enough to almost expect that, and buy the cars anyway for the performance, charger network, etc.

  75. Larry D. Says:

    5 Many years ago, more than 20, the wife of my 1st PhD student, an engineer w a masters working at Ford (now a senior engineer in her 60s) told us that they designed cars to last 100,000 miles and trucks to last 150,000 miles. I assume a truck based SUV would last 150 and a car based SUV would last 100.

    These numbers are utterly unacceptable in today’s environment when cars go for 100s and 100s of thousands of miles with very few problems and only wear and tear replacements.

    This is especially true for the E Class Diesels, which 100,000s of TAXIS in Europe abuse on a daily basis, and, as I mentioned many times, DO MILLIONS of miles over the ir lifetime, but are m,ewticulously maintained. (my taxi driver had a 90s E class and now has a far more efficient E 250, but she did 4 million KM with the old one (2,500,000 miles for the metric challenged)

  76. Kit Gerhart Says:

    71. It seems that companies have a hard time giving up on underperforming brands. GM should have given away, or shut down Opel/Vauxhall long before they did, but even your beloved Daimler hasn’t shut down smart, that I know of, and it never did very well, even in Europe. They have sold about 100K/year, globally, so maybe someone would want it, but it doesn’t seem like much of a fit for Daimler.

  77. Kit Gerhart Says:

    73. Based on my friend’s 2002 Sunfire, GM was doing a lot better 18 years ago than Ford was 20-whatever years ago. The Sunfire has gone over 240K miles with all of the original moving parts, except tires and an alternator. It has been properly maintained with oil changes at 4-5K miles, and sees few full throttle shifts, etc, but still…

    As far as the 2.5M mile Benz, you can make about any car last as long as you want, by replacing parts, if it isn’t crashed, and doesn’t have to deal with road salt. It would be interesting to see a list of the total maintenance on that car, like number of engine and transmission rebuilds, suspension work, window mechanisms, if any, etc. Most of what I find with a little searching, is that the M-B diesel engines are good for 400-500K miles, but I saw one claim that the older inline 5 and 6 cylinder diesels with iron heads would occasionally go a million miles without major work.

  78. ChuckGrenci Says:

    I bet they used the 100,000 mile benchmark just as a ‘generality’; even back in the day, some vehicles crapped out a whole lot earlier, and others maintained, did a whole lot better. And if designed for 100,000 miles, back in the day, those expectations also referred to the body-work, as the mechanicals were quite robust (with attention to maintenance). Rust and corrosion protection has made leaps and bounds as well as paint; the big stumbling block in today’s cars seem to be “tech” with its complexities and to a point fragilities (but this is just an all encompassing generality too).

  79. Larry D. Says:

    78 Don’t (bet it was some kind of “generality”. It was very simple and straightforward, the AVERAGE life of a car was designed to be 100k and that of a (Ford) truck to be 150k, 20 years ago. I b et this is way higher today, meaning the components are made to last, always ON AVERAGE, far more than 100 and 150k. If they do any kind of serious quantitative design, as they should.

  80. Larry D. Says:

    here is your weekend project: Assume you think of retiring in a year or so, and after you fulfill all your obligations and make your charity donations and all that, you are left with a modest $10 mill (US of course) liquid (cash, stocks, bonds, mut. funds, 401ks, SS) and about $2 mill all else (mostly homes, aptments, condos and a couple cars).

    Assume you have anywhere from 0 to 50 years of life left. you can select a specific no like 20 or 30 as an average.

    What would be, in your mind, the best way to spend it so that, when you kick the proverbial bucket, you die broke, or at least with nothing (since you can’t take it with you).

    be as specific as you can.

    Have fun.

  81. Larry D. Says:

    CV Update, week of June 19-25:

    Average World daily deaths, (population 7+M billion), 4,566.

    Of which, LATIN America, 2,395 (52%) (population not even 10% of the world)

    USA: 564, share has FALLEN to 12%, down from almost 50% of world deaths at the peak (See the nice graph!)

    Europe: about 500

  82. Kit Gerhart Says:

    In places like Indiana and Michigan, probably more cars go to junk yards because of rust, than from being “worn out.” The rust protection is much better now than 20 years ago, but still, cars (and pickup trucks) that have seen 20 years of road salt are not in very good shape, regardless of miles.

    One change over the years that has greatly extended the life of engines, is taller gearing. In high school, I drove a 1950 Plymouth with a flat head six. As I remember, it was 218 CID, and was considerably “under square,” with about 5 inch stroke. It had a 3.90 rear axle ratio and, of course, a direct 1:1 top transmission gear. A quick calculation shows that the engine would be turning ~3800 rpm at 70 mph, a common speed to drive on Indiana roads in the 1960s. No wonder those engines didn’t last very long, at least if the car was used for highway driving.

  83. Bob Wilson Says:

    Tesla’s growth and success was without being listed by J.D. Powers. What is the difference from being dead last and dead not listed?

  84. Kit Gerhart Says:

    83. Not being listed would be better for Tesla than being dead last, but things like dust in the paint are probably not of concern to many Tesla customers.

    From and Electrek article:
    “Tesla’s quality issues are primarily with cosmetic items, such as paint imperfections, poorly fitting body panels, and squeaks and rattles – rather than core powertrain or infotainment functions.”

    The article is here:

  85. JoeS Says:

    71, 73(69?) The cost list was very simple
    1. Is it a gas hog?
    2. Are common wear replacement parts rare or overpriced?
    3. Is it safe?
    4. Will it be a rust bucket in ten years?

  86. Larry D. Says:

    83 I know that JD Power Surveys are paid by the automakers, and I bet Tesla has not paid them a dime, so no wonder they are not included.

  87. Larry D. Says:

    84 If they squeak and rattle (IF), I bet they would be very annoying to me. My hearing is quite good, and even tho I never have headaches, I am sure it would be intolerable, esp. for an utterly quiet BEV, to hear them. (My new TV Volume is set on 4-5 out of 100, I have no special speakers, do not know why it has to be so loud. I frequently set it to just 2-3 out of 100 dots, or even mute it and use the captions, if the way they speak is really annoying, as in most local news clowns.

    I really do not believe that squeaks and rattles are the rule in any Tesla model, but I will be more sure after I test drive one. RE the other complaints, paint and panel fit, I am deeply suspicious of it being the rule, because I have seen a pretty big sample up close, as I have said before, about 100 total, of which 50 Model 3s, and NONE was anything but IMMACULATE in both respects.

  88. Larry D. Says:

    I was reading the CR 2014 Auto Issue and they had a summary of the Model S next to one for the LS460. Despite all the good things they said about the 460, they gave it a far lower score than the amazing 99 out of 100 they gave the Model S, which they proclaimed the best car they EVER tested, and mentioned “performance luxury” like no other car. Maybe it is more luxurious than I thought.

  89. Larry D. Says:

    Here is a little brain teaser that is very easy for some, and is supposed to be solved in 30 seconds or so. Why are computer scientists always confusing Christmas with Thanksgiving? A very simple math proof why is required.

  90. Larry D. Says:

    This shouldn’t hurt Musk’s Semi that he recently emailed his underlings to put in full production (from just a few units before that).

    I still think BEV City Bus and Taxi fleets with battery swap makes even more sense.

  91. Kit Gerhart Says:

    87. My friend with the new Model S mentioned the bad paint job, but hasn’t mentioned other quality issues, like rattles. He does not consider it very luxurious, though, and said it’s only a little quieter at highway speed than his Prius V. It’s, of course, much quieter at lower speed and on quiet pavement, where wind and road noise are not factors. Rattles would bother me, like they did with my 2018 Camry, until I got them fixed. I think CR’s being impressed with the performance in 2014 overrode some other factors, like a ride not up to LS and S-Class standards.

    For the current model year, Tesla S scored 97 and S-Class 96 in CR’s “road test” scores. The current, downgraded Lexus LS was much lower, at 72.

  92. Kit Gerhart Says:

    90. Battery swap would be great if they run 24 hours a day, or if they would run out of juice in a day’s driving. If they only operate 12-16 hours a day, and they’d have a day’s range, overnight changing should work.

    Trash collection and mail delivery, where they stop about every 50 feet, would also be great applications for BEVs.

  93. Larry D. Says:

    92 a company tried to operate a swap service in Israel many years ago but it failed. Surprisingly it aimed at private auto owners, where it has a ton of problems, than at fleets of identical vehicles where it should work very well.

  94. Larry D. Says:

    The JH site puts the CV death in my county at 104 today, yet a monthly “Observer” publication we get for free, put the total at 106, and had some b reakdown:

    None was under 40, one was below 50, and more than half were above 80 years old. It did not have a list of names, I expect a few could be retired colleagues of mine I might know. OF course many retire out of town-state, but a large number stay here.

  95. Kit Gerhart Says:

    93. I saw an effective battery swap system years ago, lead-acid batteries for fork lifts used for 3 shift factory operations.

  96. Larry D. Says:

    Even for private BEV owners, one could develop a swap system that might work, esp for commuters who live in high rise apartment buildings, they could even own very low range BEVs and swap the batteries every evening after work, or every X days. For a BEV maker where you own the vehicle but not the battery so you don’t care what battery you got in there. The market segment is too huge to ignore.

  97. Larry D. Says:

    96 I can imagine this working in the Shanghai area, where there are distant suburbs with forests of 50 and 70 stories high apartment buildings, whose residents probably work downwtown or a long way from there anyway. They could possibly carpool in BEVs and save traffic congestion too. Now they use lots of plug-in hybrids.

  98. Larry D. Says:

    just checked used Tesla S prices in a 500 mile radius from here, apart from a private seller asking $22k, the rest have a $25k floor. Not bad, a year ago you had to pay at least $35k.

  99. Larry D. Says:

    This one is sold by a Toyota dealer 191 miles from here, it’s a 2013 with FIVE previous owners but only ONE service record, no accidents etc. (CARFAX). Looked into the sevice and it was a windshield repair when the vehicle was on sale by a Porsche dealer.

  100. cwolf Says:

    95 Kit, my GM plant was swapping tow motor batteries for as long as I can remember. May have started in late 70′s. Only took about 10 minutes for the operator to do.

  101. Kit Gerhart Says:

    At my GM plant, all of the forklifts used within the plants were electric, and were set up for battery swapping. Probably battery swapping was used for most of them, but some used for areas running single shifts were probably charged with the battery in the machine. ICE trucks, mostly propane as I remember, were used in loading dock areas.

  102. MERKUR DRIVER Says:

    Battery swapping would work well, but would require standardization of the battery. This is something all manufacturers, including TESLA, have specifically resisted because it would eliminate a competitive advantage. It also makes it difficult to tailor a solution around their unique vehicle environment. Without standardization of the battery though, you can’t do swaps. Could you imagine owning a swap center and having stacks of every manufacturers batteries on hand because you have to be prepared for any random car to come in? Logistically that would be impossible.

    If battery swap is the answer, it will need to be government mandated as you will not find any manufacturer willing to do it on their own. Even TESLA.

  103. Lambo2015 Says:

    That’s where a manufacturer could really change the EV market. If they would design the battery to use similar attachments and have quick connect features a batter swap could be like a very quick car wash. Could be fully automated and you pull in and in a couple minutes pull out with a fully charged battery. Would require some pre planning on the design side but certainly could be done and even made to accommodate different size batteries as long as they all maintained the same attachment and lift points.
    If quick charging never gets down to something similar to a gas fill up like 5 min I could see this being the way to go.

  104. Kit Gerhart Says:

    It will be a cold day in hell before car manufactures standardize on batteries for EVs that would allow battery swapping among brands. The can’t even standardize very much on 12 volt lead-acid batteries for cranking engines, with what, about 20 different styles?

  105. ChuckGrenci Says:

    VHS versus Beta; the only way you are going to see a changeable battery pack would be after a lengthy battle between the manufacturers with a winner take all. As much as standardization makes sense for certain technologies sometimes its a difficult task to pull off.

  106. cwolf Says:

    Because if all the questions raised here, electric cars will remain a second around town car, that can be charged at home, for a very long time.

  107. Stephen Says:

    The F150 hybrid has a tiny hybrid battery. No official EPA test results but Ford said they are aiming at 25mpg. As for the range, thats helped by the big gas tank. If you want truly good mpg, the answer is still their 3L diesel. The hybrid might be a way of offering a cleaner 25mpg truck. Its also a test hybrid.

  108. cwolf Says:

    I often chat with a group of rather well off large boat owners who also like cars as much as me. Most know little about EVs, but are curios and interested in them. What caught my attention was my impression they were very frugal or just careful with their money. They say they don’t understand why anyone would purchase an expensive Model 3 when you can buy a Prius for much less, get great mileage without worrying about the many down sides.
    This tells me, people are not yet convinced nor ready to buy a BEV.

  109. Kit Gerhart Says:

    107. It looks like if you want a pickup truck with good mpg, the Chevy diesel is the way to go.

  110. Kit Gerhart Says:

    108 If you just want economical, reliable transportation, with good utility, a Prius is hard to beat.

  111. Larry D. Says:

    104 This is one of the few areas where International Government REGULATIONS would work and save billions, by standardizing them over the dead bodies of the stupid automakers.

  112. Larry D. Says:

    UAW Criminal so-called “leader” returns $55,000 (?!!) in travel expenses?

    I remember we had a University Bigwig, an extremely tall guy to boot, an economist, who recently passed away (Van Howveling or sth), he had to travel to CHina and business class was a hefty $9,600, and despite the fact it would have been extremely uncomfortable in the cattle section (economy), and he had every right to a business class ticket, if not higher, the highly paid provost or sth (I bet at least $500k a year plus lots of perks) took the Damned ECONOMY seat and suffered all the way to zSHanghai.

    Compare and contrast with the barely literate UAW THUGS.

  113. Larry D. Says:

    109 OR, much better MPG, and probably for the same $, and zero emissions, the Tesla CYBERTRUCK, if you don’t mind the “Conehead” roof.

  114. Kit Gerhart Says:

    111 Something that would be easy to do, but will never happen, would be for the U.S., Canada, and the EU to standardize on basic safety, emission, and lighting regs. If that were done, we Americans would have some actual car choice, other than about 300 SUV/CUVs, and a few sedans. Even if MBUSA didn’t want to sell basic C-Class wagons in the U.S., if they were DOT legal, they could be bought, shipped over, and registered easily.

  115. Larry D. Says:

    113 it should really be MP$ and apply for all fuels.

    BTW there is a ridiculous tricycle with bicycle-thin wheels going for $5,000 (!) and powered by a small solar panel, slow as molasses, that is on sale, I forget where. It’s strictly a fair-weather vehicle as its sides are exposed to the elements (maybe they have a thin clear plastic curtain, as its hatch has). be sure you make your will before you circulate with it. THIS, not Nader’s Corvair, will be not only unsafe b ut LETHAL at any speed, if they hit you even with a Honda Fit.

    BTW, when CR reviewed the 2014 E 250 Bluetec, it remarked, shocked, that it got the same total average MPG it got with the tiny econobox (they used words like that) Fit.

  116. Kit Gerhart Says:

    113. The way most pickups are used, the Cybertruck should be pretty good. People can charge them at home in the attached garage of their suburban house, and drive to work and Walmart, without ever going to a gas station. For those who want to tow something big, on a long trip, the Cybertruck won’t be so good, and might not even make to the next “supercharger” if the trailer is very big, or the driver is going very fast. I suspect a lot of the Cybertruck sales will be to people other than “traditional” pickup drivers, who now have F-150/Silverado/Ram.

  117. Kit Gerhart Says:

    115. CR mpg, overall/city/highway mpg

    2014 M-B E250 BlueTec. 30/21/41
    2013 Honda Fit. 30/21/39
    2020 Camry 4 cyl. 32/20/49
    2020 Camry LE hybrid. 47/39/53
    2020 Honda Fit 33/24/42

  118. ChuckGrenci Says:

    The Cybertruck will be a ‘look at me’ truck for as long as I can imagine. I don’t see that its diverse styling overcomes any shortcomings from the current lot offerings of the pickup we currently are offered today. I still wonder how much the production truck will vary from the originally presented Cybertruck; last I heard there were two Cybertrucks so the actual production truck may vary (due to regulations and practicalities; I see a problem with some of the angled surfaces being pedestrian dangerous). And there still will be the question of which BEV trucks make it; the seems way more supply to what can be conceived as demand.

  119. joe Says:

    The love affair between Tesla and Panasonic must be over now that Tesla knows it’s batteries are not the best. It’s going to be tough to beat what GM has.

  120. Kit Gerhart Says:

    118. The Cybertruck won’t be for road trips, at least as things are now. A Model 3 or Model S needs about a half hour of charging for 150 miles of range with today’s superchargers. The big, draggy truck thing will need almost twice that, empty. If you are carrying or, especially, towing anything, you might need 2 hours of charge for 150 miles of range. One megawatt Tesla chargers are in the works, which will speed that up, but still, it seems Cybertruck will mostly be for the “lifestyle” crowd to use locally.

  121. Larry D. Says:

    BTW, In the case of fleets of city BEV buses or taxis, the difference in batteries is not an issue. These will be identical vehicles, buses or taxis, and each group would use just one type of interchangeable battery.

    Further reading of CR issues showed that BMW had ruined the 7 series not only in the looks department after Bangle and the 2001 model, but ALSO in one of its best assets, they ruined its HANDLING! It also did not like the Panamera much, gave it a total score of 84 (Vs 99 for the Model S)

    CR did not make similar complaints about the S class of the 2007-13 vintage (my favorite consideration) and in fact said that in 2012 they updated the engines, so the 4.6 lt v8 made a very healthy 429 HP.

    My driving style, almost all city the last few months, would benefit from the cheapest S class of 2012, the S400 Hybrid, with almost 300 combined HP and a 6 cyl. But the V8 would sound and drive much nicer.

  122. Larry D. Says:

    119 LOL you really are hilarious, Debbie Downer.

  123. Kit Gerhart Says:

    121. The current (outgoing) 7 series scored highest of all current cars in CR’s “road test” scores with 99. Tesla S got 97, and S-Class got 96. This info is from the CR web site.

  124. Bob Wilson Says:

    Looks like Autoline.daily is being run by the inmates. Bring a subject and we’ll improve our understanding. So I’d like to address EV efficiency:

    $3.00-3.50 per 100 mi – Std Rng Plus Model 3 on cross country. SuperCharge every 2 to 2.5 hours.

    $2.70 per 100 mi in town reduced by up to 1/3d with free charging while shopping or eating.

    No oil, engine air filter, radiator coolant, spark plug, PVC valve changes, transmission or clutch. No emissions testing or oil spot where car is parked. No warm-up or cool down unless desired while on charger.

    Acceleration is pedal to the metal because it doesn’t wear out the motor, make useless noise, and gives lane choice.

    Traction batteries are lasting so long that they appear to exceed ICE/diesel and transmission rebuild or replace intervals. There have been a few warranty replacements in EVs used for shuttle service.

  125. Kit Gerhart Says:

    124. Let’s do some operating cost calculation for an even 500 miles. At $3.35/100 miles, it would cost you $26.25 for 500 miles.

    With my Camry hybrid, going 75-80 mph on the interstate, at current gas prices where I am, it would cost $24.43 for gas. If I’d slow down to 65 mph, it would cost about $20 for the 500 miles. Then, since my time is worth something, say $15/hour, I’d need to add about $22.50 to your expense for the 1.5 hours at the charging station, while I can get 500 miles miles of range in 5 minutes. That would make your cost $48.75 to my $27.50, after I add the cost of my time for gassing up.

    Then, let’s look at total cost of routine maintenance for 200K miles, over 20 years, typical, as miles driven per year normally decrease as cars age. My 20 oil changes at $50 each would be $1000. Add another $500 for filters, spark plugs, etc., and it’s $1500. Add another $1000 in case something breaks, which it might, or might not. That’s $2500. With the 20 year old EV with 200K miles, you will almost definitely have needed a new, or new used battery for $5000-$20,000 or so.

    Yeah, EVs are cool, especially the ones Tesla is selling, but saving money with them? I’m not convinced.

  126. Larry D. Says:

    123 Which proves CR recently have no clue what they are doing. No wonder they gave the failed, canceled Impala a 95. What does that number mean? NOTHING. Sure not the satisfaction of owning a large, crude, non-RWD, poor handling econobox. Laughable. As for the 7 series, they mentioned the poor handling (amazing!) in several years, around 2013-14. SO BMW idiots repented later? The whole thing is a sick joke.

  127. Larry D. Says:

    124 The makers of that joke tricycle powered by solar and with no sides, at $5,000, claimed, using the new math taught in our schools in recent decades (no wonder the Students from China kick their collective asses in college and grad school) that the unfortunate buyer will ‘recover’ the $5k in 6 months.

    I guess with the right assumptions you can transform a straight line into a circle. And of course the journalist to whom the ridiculous claims were made, did not utter a sound of protest.

  128. Kit Gerhart Says:

    126 If you’d look at the individual category ratings, it mostly makes sense. BTW, the current 7 is different from the 2013-2014.

  129. Kit Gerhart Says:

    126,128. The 2014 scored two notches lower in “emergency handling” than the current one, of the next generation. Also, the Impala scored only 91 in “road test score” in the most recent test.

    You ask “what does that number mean.” Since you mention looking at the magazine on occasion, I think you know. It’s a compilation of a bunch of things including performance, comfort, handling, fuel efficiency, safety, and probably a couple other things.

  130. Larry D. Says:

    125 In some extreme cases of long distance commuting, some buyers may save money using a BEV, esp if their employer offers free juice.

    But for most drivers, including myself, they will NOT save me a dime, on the contrary, they will cost much more than if I sat on my behind and kept using my excellent dirty diesels.

    Anybody who thinks otherwise, prove it.

    Also, if your BEV is any TESLA, even the Model 3, any savings is a footnote, the main attraction and allure is the AWESOME PERFORMANCE AND HANDLING and if you are green-minded, the emission-free operation.

  131. Larry D. Says:

    128 I am aware. The 2016 7 still looked OK, but compared to today’s atrocity, with its Edsel Front (Grille), even the Bangle Butt, in the ALPINA disguise, where said Butt is covered by a large spoiler on top of it, and with its bette-than-LS460 interior, red wood veneer and fantastic leather and top materials, is still an attractive choice in Alpina Blue. ALpinas also exist in some electric Green or Lime, which looks juvenile to me.

  132. Larry D. Says:

    129 however their ‘secret formula’ they use at CR, if it produced a 95 for the Impala, it is DEAD WRONG, was my point. This is LUDICROUS. They gave really good luxury cars and SUVs 50s.

    Markets are not inefficient, if the Impala was worth even 80 points (which Accords and Camrys get), let alone the LUDICROUS (in a bad sense) 95, buyers would have scooped it up, as it was also very affordable, but they DID NOT, while they scooped up lower-scoring Accords and Camrys by the millions.

  133. Kit Gerhart Says:

    132. Those 50s scores you are talking about are overall score, including reliability, and maybe inclusion of some safety tech, both of which should be kept separate. In the most recent test, with changing standards, the Impala scored only 91 “road test score.”

    Anyway, part of the problem with Impala, was that it was not affordable enough, when properly equipped. It needs the V6 and at least mid trim level to really compete with a $32K Accord or Camry, but an Impala equipped that way is near $40K, and the main advantage of the Impala is a big trunk. According to published specs, front and rear leg room are about the same as Camry and Accord.

  134. Bob Wilson Says:

    #125 – “Let’s do some operating cost calculation for an even 500 miles. At $3.35/100 miles, it would cost you $26.25 for 500 miles”

    My computer calculator shows $3.35/100 mi * 500 mi = $16.75. So in June 2019 spent $25 to drive 714 miles from Huntsville AL to Munro Associates, Auburn Hills, MI.

    The cheaper rate, $3.00/100 miles occurs when we stay overnight at a motel with free breakfast and overnight charging. This means we leave the next morning with a full battery, 232 miles today.

    We traded in a 2017 Prius Prime, $18.3 k, to buy our 2019 Std Rng Plus Model 3. EPA rated at 1.9 gal/100 mi, we can model the Detroit trip: 714 mi – 25 mi EV = 689 mi on gas. So this leads to 1.9 gal/100 mi * 689 mi = 13.1 gallons. So using the halfway, Cincinnati OH, $2.15/gal that would be $28.17 a close second to our Std Rng Plus Model 3.

    At age 70, I’m looking forward still be driving in 20 years at age 90. By then, Tesla’s Full Self Driving should be complete. My goal is to reach December 2049 when my warranty should be complete and the car can drive my corpse to the funeral home.

  135. Bob Wilson Says:

    #134 – Minor omission, the 25 miles EV would cost $0.66 at home bringing the Prius Prime cost to $28.17 + $0.66 = $28.83 for the trip to Munro Associates. Not much of a difference but then the Prius Prime was not much of a PHEV.

  136. Kit Gerhart Says:

    134. Oops, my in-my-head multiplication of 3.35 x 5 was wrong. I need to be more careful.
    135 Yeah, the Prius Prime isn’t much of a PHEV. If you do a lot of short trips from home, it would have real benefit, but for longer trips, it’s mostly a regular Prius. Unlike most PHEVs, though, it gets serious hybrid mpg when run on gas.

  137. Lambo2015 Says:

    134 Bob I’m not sure why you spend so much time tracking the gas savings when in the big picture its irrelevant. You’re talking about less than $30 on a trip from Fla to Michigan. Can easily spend that difference depending on where I stop and eat. Also, What about your time? I understand your retired and maybe time is no concern but if I’m on my way to Fla for vacation I would gladly pay $30 to not add an hour to the trip charging my car. Not to mention extra up front cost vs a car of similar size.
    Maybe you just enjoy tracking those costs but trying to say a benefit of an EV is cost savings just doesn’t add up yet. The average car getting 30mpg at 15K miles a year uses about $1000 of gas a year. Minus charging costs of an EV for 15K miles and the yearly savings is what maybe $500. So by time even a good 5 year warranty runs out you’ve saved $2500 in fuel.
    But you’ve wasted time charging, driving out of the way to find a charger and spent thousands up front for the EV vs a ICE.

    If one company was really smart they would develop a purpose built EV taxi and delivery van that used an automated battery swap process and go after the inner city cab companies. They could run 24/7 pull back into the garage when low on juice get the battery swapped in 5 min and be back on the road making money. That is their strong point and where they would make the most sense. If I only had millions to invest.

  138. Larry D. Says:

    134, 136

    Your calculations are both academic. When you look at huge life spans it does not correspond with your past patterns, where you trade and replace your cars every 3 years or less.

    So you need to add all kinds of other hits you took, sales tax, depreciation, license fees, other fees, whenever you replace your vehicle.

    Without time to do the detailed calculations, I am pretty sure I have FAR lower total cost, definitely per year, and maybe also per mile driven, by buying and HOLDING my cars until death do us part (their death, not mine), AND then donate them to a charity or bother to sell them. Even if I get a modest 37 HWY and 25ish City.

  139. Larry D. Says:

    In the news today, Chinese owned VOlvo – Geely is recalling 2 MILLION cars. Before you dismiss this, remember that their ANNUAL US sales, all models, are less than 100k vehicles. and their market share a DISMAL 0.5%-0.7% at best.

    Why am I not surprised.

  140. Larry D. Says:

    133 I am also talking about the overall score, not just the road test.

    In any case, the proof is in the pudding. If you really believed the Impala is worth 95 and your Camry whatever CR gave it, 80 or so, and given that the subjective factors (appearance) are in the Impala’s favor over the Camry (grille), you’d have bought the Impala instead.

    People vote with their WALLETS in this business.

  141. Larry D. Says:

    134 The main advantage of your Model 3 over a Prius (there are many advantages in the Looks, interior quality of materials, exterior design etc too), but the MAIN advantage is its BREATH TAKING PERFORMANCE. I have said it many times, and forgive me if I believe you have really never taken advantage and enjoyed this performance, which not even the most expensive Prius model can even DREAM of. I am talking about the extra-low Center of Gravity and the resulting OUTSTANDING HANDLING, and of course acceleration etc. Instead, you appreciate the few nickels and dimes you save (which actually are a PITTANCE compared to the thousands you lost in depreciation when you traded in your previous hybrid for this, the taxes and fees you paid, etc etc)

    It would be a real pity if you do not appreciate and enjoy those outstanding features that your Model 3 has, which BOTH your Prius AND your BMW i3 did NOT have.

  142. Lambo2015 Says:

    Tesla accounts for a dismal 1.68% of US sales. Also unimpressive percentages.

  143. Kit Gerhart Says:

    138. I agree about our calculations being academic, as far as cost of car ownership. Both Bob and I have thrown away a lot of money buying and selling newish cars, rather than “running them out.” Also, I agree that in most cases, buying new cars does not make economic sense.

  144. Kit Gerhart Says:

    140. For the 3rd time, CR’s current “road test” score for the Impala is 91, not 95. The road test score for both Camry and Accord hybrids is 89.

    As far as what people buy, including myself, it is not based on a composite of things like CR’s scores. Looking at the charts, the (V6) Impala is quicker, has a better ride, more comfortable front seat, bigger trunk, and maybe another “advantage” or two over the Camry and Accord, which slightly more than cancels out the better efficiency of the Honda and Toyota. For me, the Camry was the better choice. If I needed a bigger trunk, or cared that much about front end appearance, it might not have been.

  145. Larry D. Says:

    142 Really? You really compare VOlvo’s TRULY dismal 0.5% of DIRTY cars to Tesla’s 200% BIGGER sales of MORE expensive, TRUE BEVs? LAUGHABLE. Shows how little you uinderstand and appreciate. Stick to your pickup and fake lambo.

    Why don’t you even TRY to be fair and compare APPLES TO APPLES, ie, the MILLION PLUS PLUS expensive B EVs Tesla sold to date, with your DISMAL loser Bolt and leaf and the lesser BEV sales all your “expert” automakers sold. LAUGHABLE. YOU REALLY don’t want to go there, you have just been beaten like a DRUM. WISE UP.

  146. Larry D. Says:

    I could care less about the Impala’s So called CURRENT Score, since the IMPALA IS NO LONGER FOR SALE.

    I compare the TRUE 95 CR DID Give the Impala, and when you bought your Camry and Mini and all the other toys you bought, they had FAR LESSER SCORES.


  147. Kit Gerhart Says:

    141. Yep, the advantages of the Model 3 over a Prius are acceleration/handling, and exterior styling, The disadvantages are cost, sedan rather than liftback, range, and for many of us, no place to conveniently charge it. I’m not sure I’d like the 3′s lack of regular controls, but not having one, I don’t know if I’d “develop a taste” for the tablet thing. Maybe I’ll find out some day.

  148. Larry D. Says:

    the Irony is delicious and I could not resist it.

    The very thing that put the Volvo on the map, the Safety belt, is the reason CHINESE Geely, the owner of VOLVO, is recalling 2,200,000 “volvos” of the last 14 years. I put them in quotes because they do not look ANYTHING like the HONEST VOLVOS that made the brand world-known in the 50s and 60s and till the 80s.

  149. Kit Gerhart Says:

    146. You don’t seem to understand that there is continuous improvement in cars in the market over time. That’s why the same Impala got a lower score a few years after introduction, just as the Tesla S has a lower score now than in 2014. Presumably, the S and Impala haven’t gotten worse, but the standards have gotten higher.

    My Camry got 2 points lower “road test” score. Yeah, the Mini no doubt got a much lower score, but as I’ve said, I don’t buy cars based on CR’s scores. I buy what I like at the time.

  150. Lambo2015 Says:

    145 Dirty cars like the real filthy diesels you drive, Gas or EVs who cares its about moving product and anytime the percentage of US sales comes up you do beat that drum of apples to apples and only want to compare Tesla to all other EVs. Or include China sales. Yet you keep comparing them to GM and Ford Why? Because their dismal percentage of overall sales is in the same boat as Volvo and behind makers like even Mazda. The actual number for Tesla in 2019 was 1.1%.

    As for my kit car and truck, That goes to show what little you know about building a car. Its actually an D&R replica not a fake Lambo, and requires skills you will only ever read about so that you can regurgitate like you posses them. I don’t need to read about the million EVs Tesla has built over 10 years+ they been selling cars, Meanwhile Ford that you despise so much, makes over 1 Million trucks each and every year. Cant wait to see how the Cybertruck compares to that. Maybe 1%
    Maybe you should stick to your books and keep reading about the stuff you’ll never master. Your intelligence is only vilified by your posts.
    Hey! and notice, I made my point without CAPS as most intelligent people can read/write with normal grammar skills. Those that lack the skills to communicate rely on CAPS and other means to be heard. Typically because nothing important is being relayed like your ridiculous weekend request in post 80.. Notice no reply because no one cares.

  151. cwolf Says:

    Lamborghini, don’t waste your time on Larry. All of the subjects he chooses are only twisted info and comparisons which makes him believe his comments hold value, which none ever do.
    Recall his “ don’t worry” virus posts by comparing the US to Brazil. I guess the fact that, per capita, Texas exceeds them. More importantly, the focus should be about only what is happening here!
    Also note he praises Tesla but doesn’t own one. Talk is cheep! And according to him, his daily drive is minimum on his used oil burner. Good mileage, but pollute More when driven cold.
    Finally, his remark the Chinese were better in math, which may have some merit, but I can tell you from experience, the students don’t know how to apply their knowledge in an industrial setting, because they don’t have the freedom to apply it.
    PS…. his stock market comments are just ridiculous!
    I think I said enough to make my views clear.

  152. cwolf Says:

    Let me simplify my comment using his own phrase, Larry is “ ALL HAT AND NO CATTLE”

  153. Larry D. Says:

    Read and cry, Wolf. I thought Ford had killed the underachieving and frumpy Conti long ago, but as it turns out it only did so today.

  154. Larry D. Says:

    After and unbelievably good 2nd quarter, markets were up again today (dow 30 was down a little, but the broader SP and Nasdaq were much higher) and, what really matters, just checked my own stuff, and another healthy gain. I think there were rumors about a vaccine.

    Speaking of that, I was notified my 2nd dose of my shingles vaccine was ready so this morning at 9:20 I drove to the Health Center and had it in no time, everything went very smoothly before and after.

    They gave me two masks at the Center, the first was what they give to patients, an uncomfortable half-sphere made of some hard material, I asked for another type (usually given to their employees) and got one, but that was also much worse than natural breathing.

  155. Larry D. Says:

    Bob Wilson will get a kick out of this, but Kit, not so much, and as for poor clueless Lambo, who just hours ago called tesla sales “DISMAL” (apparently he has a very limited vocabulary, because he had to steal the word I used for… CHinese VOLVO Geely) could not have been more wrong.

    WHO would have believed, just one year ago, that TESLA would surpass even the Biggest of the BIG automakers, TOYOTA, a behemoth, in market value?

    GO on, call investors irrational. Make my day. The extra billions Tesla made today are anything BUT fictional, however… LOL

  156. Larry D. Says:


  157. Kit Gerhart Says:

    153. I can’t read that link, not a paid subscriber.

    I thought they announced a few years ago that they were going to drop the Continental and MKZ, but hadn’t done it yet. There are 2020s of both, and even Fusions, but there probably won’t be 2021s of any of them.

    154. Yeah, the irrational exuberance continues, kind of like 1929, until late October..

    155. Yeah, I heard from multiple sources about Tesla overtaking Toyota in stock value. More irrational exuberance. None of that will affect the cars I buy, or the stock I (won’t) buy. I may buy a Tesla some day. I may buy another Toyota. I won’t buy stock in either, or any other car company, unless my mutual funds include some auto stock. Also, I won’t sell either my small amount of Daimler or Ford stock.

  158. Kit Gerhart Says:

    150. Lambo, maybe you’ve said, but why are companies able to make replica kit cars for Cobra and Porsche 356, but get “lawyered” out of making more replica kits like yours? Is it just the owner of the brand, or is there more to it than that?

  159. Kit Gerhart Says:

    150,158. It must not be the owner of the brand, because VW owns both Porsche and Lamborghini.

  160. ChuckGrenci Says:

    156, shouldn’t that newspaper article’s title have used the word valued as opposed to valuable. I believe it is an injustice to a major player (Toyota) in the transportation industry to be evaluated to Tesla (which is upcoming, still youngster as it goes) in the industry as surpassed in importance. Semantics maybe, but others have been taken to heart when misspoken.

  161. Larry D. Says:

    sad little wolf joins LAMBO in their verbal poverty and STEALING my own catch phrases.

    What do they say?

    Imitation is the sincerest form of Flattery, fake wolf.

    Now go to your corrections facility and hug your UAW Crooks and Thugs from me, tell them that $55,000 stolen just for travel expenses is really impressive.

  162. Larry D. Says:

    It is remarkable what the clueless comments here believed two years ago and what the REAL WORLD is today, re TESLA, the MOST VALUABLE AUTO COMPANY IN THE WHOLE WORLD, more than even TOYOTA.. HAHAH!!!!

    ANALYZE THAT, WOlfie with the discoutinued Conti!


  163. Bob Wilson Says:

    Early trading, TSLA around $1,210. In 2020 Q2 they produced 82,272 and delivered 90,650 (leftovers from 2020 Q1.)

    #134 – Tracking fuel efficiency has been a life long hobby going back to 1971 and my 1966 VW MicroBus. I tracked MPG using a ‘Blue Book’ (an early English composition booklet) to also tell when I needed to adjust the valve backlash and clean the lead from the spark plugs.

    #141 – I drive the Model 3 in “chill” mode and always floor the accelerator at a light to beat the rest of the traffic across the intersection and reach the speed limit ~200 yds ahead of the pack which gives lane choice. But then there are only six moving parts in the drivetrain.

    BTW, up to ~70 mph, the Model 3 in chill mode and BMW i3-REx in EV Pro (reduced power) have identical acceleration curves. Above 70 mph the Model 3 pulls away.

  164. Kit Gerhart Says:

    163 That’s interesting about chill mode. I always thought it just “softened” throttle tip in, like eco mode in a Prius, but that the acceleration would be the same in all modes, if floored. It sounds like chill mode reduces power, regardless of right foot position. Based on CR’s acceleration of an i3, 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, I guess a Model 3 in chill mode is barely quicker than, say, a Camry hybrid with a 0-60 of 7.8 seconds. CR got 5.3 seconds 0-60 for a Model 3 Long Range in standard mode.

  165. Lambo2015 Says:

    158 (Kit) Yea when D&R was making replica kits they had been contacted by Lamborghini and they had a mutual agreement that no legal action would be taken as long as the replicas were vehicles no longer in production and he didn’t use the Lamborghini name. Which they only offered Countach and Diablo’s at that time.

    However when Audi took over, C&D letters were sent and all the replica car builders were shut down. I got lucky because my kit was the 2nd to last one they ever made.

    Ferrari has always been quick with the C&D letters which is why you don’t see kits for long. Companies have tried to slip by making sure to not make reference to Ferrari or Lamborghini calling the bodies something else. Which from what I understand is legal but most companies making fiberglass bodies don’t have the resources to even go to court and try and fight a lawsuit with a big car company, even if they would likely win, so its best to just close shop.
    I was going to build a Cobra but I have two family members with them already and you can see one at almost every car show. I wanted to build something rare and love the body design of the Diablo. Plus I had a Fiero to use as a donor, which only the seat pan and steering column is being used at this point. The frame is custom tubing front suspension is tubular A arms with coil overs. The rear is complete engine transmission and suspension/cradle from a Cadillac DTS. I wanted something fun and reliable I didn’t want a bunch of cobbled up made to fit parts. Basically everything is GM parts.
    One of the other guys building one that I have contact with on another forum owned a real Lamborghini and decided to build one simply because the cost of ownership was crazy. From basic replacement parts to insurance he likes his kit better. His is basically tubular frame corvette suspension and engine with Porsche transmission. He can get brake pads today from autozone for less than $80 his brakes for the Diablo were something $3600 and he might need to wait a couple weeks.

    I like to build and fabricate so its a fun hobby. My son enjoys it so much he just bought a 1951 Chevy pick-up to restomod. Putting a 6.0L LS engine with a 700R4 transmission.

  166. Lambo2015 Says:

    161 HA ha ha Larry has his own “catch phrases” now.. How do you get home everyday? You certainly cannot fit that huge head in a normal doorway.

    Hey as I’ve said before many times, I’m glad Tesla is doing well and extremely happy they are an American company putting the EV market on end. I think their cars are cool and the model 3 will forever be known as the first modern EV for everyone.

    With that said; it is very easy for a new EV company to trip up all the old vehicle manufacturers. Its new and exciting and something different which attracts people despite if its better or not. Tesla doesn’t have the baggage of years or manufacturing and multiple economic ups and downs with thousands of retirees. Did the US manufacturers make mistakes? Hell yea they did. Like many companies that have over 50% of the market share and dominate their industry they often have no where to go but down. Getting complacent and lazy was the 1950s thru 1980s. The Japanese not only flipped the script on them but more importantly created a much needed competition, forcing the US to make much better cars and trucks. Did they get there? yea eventually and today build cars just as good if not better than Japan.
    So now EVs are the new craze and from what I have seen its not due to customer demand but a fabricated push to decrease oil consumption or pollution. So with government subsidies and this image that its greener to charge your EV from your coal fired electrical plant than to burn gas, we continue to push EVs.

    So are EVs the future? Maybe, I mean a lot of money is being spent on battery development so at some point it has to compare to the convenience range and cost of an ICE. But until then they don’t. Doesn’t mean there isn’t a market and that it shouldn’t be pursued. My problem is Larry you speak as if Tesla is the messiah of the auto industry and because stock prices topple Toyota that it means everything. Wait until Telsa has been around as long as Ford or Toyota and has years of proven longevity.
    Right now Tesla could be the next Blockbuster Video. Flash in the pan soar to great heights quickly only to fall hard. EVs are new and no doubt Tesla currently leads the pack. However the first one to make a breakthrough in battery technology or completely make a shift like make fuel cells work better, would completely ruin Tesla. So yes enjoy the ride Larry they are doing great and good for them. But you haven’t run out and bought any stock either have you? So you talk a big talk but make little action to back up your beliefs.

  167. Kit Gerhart Says:

    165. Thanks for the info. It sounds like you and your son have things to keep you busy.

    The cost of having a real Lamborghini, or any car like that, would be very high, even without needing parts. Just insuring a very expensive car would cost a lot, if you want to insure it for its actual market value.

  168. joe Says:

    Larry D, is there anything you don’t know? You talk like you know it all. I’m sure others think the same way, but probably don’t dare say anything. Your the most opinionated blogger Ive ever seen on the Internet.

  169. Larry D. Says:

    In case any of you care (then you would already have found out), JUNE Sales came out yesterday, and while your losers lost from 35 to 58% (lower sales),

    the MIGHTY TESLA lost comparatively NOTHING, a mere 4.9%, and in case you thought the shares, having surpassed even the MIGHTY TOYOTA in market value, could not go any higher, they OF COURSE DID,

    as did the markets with the EXCELLENT jobs report out today (5,900,000 ADDED JOBS in June!!!)

    the two resident clueless vulgarians look like damned fools now (and Joe the Debbie Downer even more, but at least he is decent).

    As the Great CARLIN said, “The average person is pretty STUPID. AND HALF of all people are even DUMBER than that!”

  170. Larry D. Says:

    “…The final numbers from Tesla’s intense end of quarter delivery blitz are in, and they were far better than Wall Street’s estimates.

    The electric car maker delivered over 90,000 vehicles in Q2 2020, in the middle of a pandemic, and at a time when its main vehicle production facility in Fremont, California was shut down for several weeks during the quarter.”

    when will you, Joe, if ever, appreciate these and all the other EPIC achievements of this company? You cannot be as dense as the two vulgarian thieves.

  171. Larry D. Says:

    I thought that with the newer stock surges he would be worth 100 billion, not 50ish, I thought he was worth 50ish a while ago.

    Koch is one of the two brothers demonized by the extreme left, but if you have EYES and pay attention, you will see that he funds all kinds of high quality science documentaries on Leftie PBS. If I were in his place, I could not give these clowns DIME ONE.

  172. Larry D. Says:

    While Dirty cars take a huge beating all over the planet, BEV Sales CONQUER more and more market share.

    IN Norway, they already got… 66%!!!

  173. Kit Gerhart Says:

    171. Yes, as we well know, the Kochs are trying to clean up their, well justified image as anti-environmental, make the rich richer, right wing extremist agenda by sponsoring some PBS science shows.

  174. Kit Gerhart Says:

    169. 5.9M jobs added? Everyone else says 4.8M. Anyway, a bunch of restaurant jobs were added, for how long, with the spiking of covid cases many places? Also, what happens when this few trillion $ of PPP money ends, that is keeping people artificially employed? This virus hasn’t gone anywhere, but far too many people are acting like it has just disappeared.

  175. Larry D. Says:

    169 The jobs were a very impressive 4,900,000 or so (from memory) whatever the true number is,m they were very impressive and the haters just hope they will not continue because of the few states that went back from opening to restrictions. Don’t know where I got the 5.9, but the Unemployment rate plummeted from 13 to 11% or so, which i unbelievably good considering the voluntary shutdown. This is what happens when you begin with a STELLAR economy in Feb 2020 and not with the usual crises like 2008 etc.

    But I started this post to correct the Great Late George Karlin or Carlin, nobody here caught his statistical faux pas, and of course I am not surprised.

    It is NOT true that half of all people are dumber than the AVERAGE. What is true is they are dumber than the MEDIAN, which is the ACCURATE 50-50 point. Only when the ‘bell curve’ is SYMMETRIC is the Average equal to the median. But don’t take it too hard, students, and even colleagues, in the world’s top U’s get this wrong too.

  176. Kit Gerhart Says:

    175. Here’s the actual jobs report:

    From the report:

    “The number of
    permanent job losers continued to rise, increasing by 588,000 to 2.9 million in June. “

  177. ChuckGrenci Says:

    Some C8 prodution news: the line is shut down this week, will begin again next Monday, the second shift is slated to begin later in July and convertible prodution to begin some time in August. Good news for buyers with orders waiting and for Corvette followers/lovers too.

  178. Kit Gerhart Says:

    177. It seems that the “Detroit Three” car plants must all be slow in getting production going, or cars are making a comeback, and the dealers just can’t keep them in stock. I drove through the Chevy, Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep, and Ford dealers today, and there were no Camaros, no Mustangs, and 4 Challengers. I suspect the Challengers hadn’t sold, because they were V6, 4wd, and two of them over $40K. People who want 4wd buy trucks, and people who buy Challengers want V8s. There were a few Chargers at the Mopar place, and a couple or three Sonics and Malibus at the Chevy, but mostly CUV’s at both places. Actually, it was kind of depressing driving through the Ford place, row after row of CUV/SUVs, some pickup trucks, and no cars at all.

  179. Larry D. Says:

    176 Seriously, this is what you found wortthy of quoting form the STELLAR report? You are a major league aspiring Debbie Downer.

    Note that there are ‘geniuses’ here who cannot even click a link, and of course never PROVIDE one, and others that I bet ask their grandkid to type their clueless posts here.

  180. Larry D. Says:

    176 Total nonfarm payroll employment rose by 4.8 million in June,

    that is 4,800,000 NEW JOBS

    and the unemployment rate
    declined to 11.1 percent,

    (from over 13%!)

    the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today

    THAT IS what Kit’s link STARTS with (ie, THE most important item in the report).

    Just for the record. TRY to be fair and unbiased next time. I know how hard it is for so many of you here.

  181. Larry D. Says:

    And from the FT site given by Kit earlier, what the US CORRUPT and biased to the bone news media NEVER tell you (but instead they alarmingly report the rise in CASES, as the number of tests skyrockets:

    DEATHS in the US have now plummeted to 11% of the world, WHILE in latin America they are 51-52% and RISING. more than half of the world deaths.

    Just so all of you understrand, the US deaths of 525 or so, are, for the whole USA, HALF what JUST MANHATTAN (not even all of NYC) were at the peak of the pandemic.

  182. Larry D. Says:

    In case you can’t google or do not want to wait till Monday to hear it from the hosts here.

    Despite the forced shutdown of its CA plant, over its bitter objections, Tesla production, and even more, Deliveries, in Q2 were an oasis among the sea of RED ink for the dirty automakers.

    82,000+ were produced, and 90,650 were delivered, of which 80,050 were Model 3/Y.

    80,050 for just Q2, Lambo, will be Chinese VOlvo Geely Loser’s ENTIRE 2020 calewndar year sales in the US, IF they are lucky in Q3 and Q4.

    Analyze that, Joe.

  183. Kit Gerhart Says:

    179,180. Time will tell the real story. Forty per cent of the 4.8M new jobs were in the “hospitality” industry, and they are already starting to go away again, even in Indiana, where I am now, never mind Texas, Arizona, and Florida. Stellar? Not really. Those numbers mean very little.

  184. Kit Gerhart Says:

    181. The deaths lag the cases by weeks. We will see how that turns out. Even as we speak, there is a drunken party next door to me in Indiana, with, of course, no one wearing masks, physical distancing, or anything else. People in the U.S. do not seem to realize that this virus has gone nowhere.

  185. ChuckGrenci Says:

    And Covid cases are increasing because even though testing has increased to a much higher degree, the percentage of positives have outnumbered the percentage of increased testings. Be careful out there (especially us more mature folk).

    p.s. The first F1 race weekend has shown M/B right where they left off; other developments though show Red Bull number two and McLaren at Red Bull’s heal but Ferrari floundering (at least through qualifying). Race tomorrow on ESPN @ 9 am (pre-show 8:00) eastern. And Haas, pretty much trailing the pack; drat.

  186. Kit Gerhart Says:

    185. Thanks for the info, and reminder. I looked at the F1 android app a couple days ago, and it showed Austria, which I though was the first race, for next weekend, July 11-12. I now see that there are two Austrian races back to back.

    Seeing the results, it looks like Ferrari didn’t do so well, but Force India is moving up a little.

    I don’t have cable where I am now, but will find a way to watch the race on a small screen.

  187. Bob Wilson Says:

    There is speculation that inclusion of TSLA in the S&P500 will require a lot of S&P500 based funds to buy TSLA stock. Supply and demand may affect stock price.

  188. cwolf Says:

    187) Hey Bob,
    So what is your prediction for Tesla stock in the weeks ahead and their next quarter performance?
    Tesla is one of the few money makers in the S&P;
    That’s not really a positive. They also shoved old inventory out the door and sacrificed production QC to better the quarters numbers. I’m still impressed ! Musk is in hot water with the SEC and the Tesla board wants to remove him. Lots of head wind coming and maybe the last rabbit Musk has in his hat.
    But Tesla stock is hot and every day trader is seeking a quick buck.
    I think the stock will go higher, but will reality kick in and cause a much needed correction.
    Glad you like your car.

  189. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Tesla stock overvalued:

  190. Bob Wilson Says:

    #188, #189 – TSLA stock analysts range from Cathie Wood, a strong bull who has been taking profits, and Gordon Johnson, a well known TSLA short seller. But their engineering skills pale compared to Sandy Munro.

    Munro & Associates disassembles cars and have often shown up on Autoline After Hours. His interview about the BMW i3 led to buying an end-of-lease, BMW i3-REx that exceeded expectations and continues to show superior engineering.

    Sandy analyzed a Tesla Model 3 and what he reported about the drivetrain quality sold me. Sure the cosmetic sheet metal could have been done better but the important parts, the drivetrain and controls remain industry leading.

    Shown a superior product, I’ll buy stock in that company.

  191. Larry D. Says:

    190 I have checked out Cathie Wood, did so when i read about her very optimistic forecasts for $5,000 and $7,000 per share (under cwertain conditions, a few years from now). As I have reported before, she is a SERIOUS PERSON (something I cannot say for other Business Stock analysts) and not a fool. She graduated SUMMA CUM LAUDE from a good (if not top) U and she does her HOMEWORK before she makes these shocking predictions, which have already proven true. ( I bet she herself did not expect Tesla to surpass TOYOTA as the most valuable company IN THE WORLD already!)

  192. Larry D. Says:

    190 “Show me a superior product, buy the stock” is a very good way to invest, and sure better informed than idiots who invest thousands in companies they know nothing about, while they spend a DAY researching a $300 appliance.

    However, the above is not enough. In the case of Tesla, a major reason to invest is ALSO that its CEO has a HUGE (the BIGGEST) share in the company stock, and lives or Dies by how the stock will do.

    But on the other side, Musk does not seem to care to maximize your profits, this is just collateral result of the excellence of his product.

  193. Kit Gerhart Says:

    190,192. “Shown a superior product, I’ll buy stock in that company.”

    In my case, I might be inclined to buy the product, if in the market for a product of its type. I haven’t bought any individual stocks in years, though.

  194. ChuckGrenci Says:

    Kit, did you get to see the race. It was a wild one. Bottas, Leclerc, Norris (M/B, Ferrari, McLaren). A lot of retirements; only 12, I think, finishers. They will be in Austria, again, next weekend.

  195. Kit Gerhart Says:

    194. I didn’t see it; couldn’t find a way to get ESPN for free, but I followed the text play-by-play on the F1 app. Yeah, pretty wild, with all of those retirements, many due to breakdowns, rather than crashes. I bet LeClerc and Norris didn’t expect to be on the podium at the midpoint, or even 3/4 point of the race.

    Mercedes must sell their customers bad parts. Didn’t Stroll and Russell both drop out due to engine failure?

  196. joe Says:

    “excellence of his product” is a quote from line 192. I find it humorous! It’s strange how some people can not see beyond their eyes. .In the past, no matter how bad or often Tesla quality has been, they always get a free pass that no other auto maker would get. If for example Ford did, they’d be in serious trouble

  197. joe Says:

    The problems with Tesla are more than just minor. I spent ten minutes on the Internet and here’s what I found. Mind you now, if other auto maker’s had problems like this, it would make big news and would cause the loss of many sales. But with Tesla sales are increasing and it shows how few people know the truth. Larry enjoy.

  198. Larry D. Says:

    Guess who the good old boys from bankrupt Detroit have NOT yet inducted in the Automotive Hall of Fame?

    the Great ELON MUSK.

    I suspected so, since I never heard of these clowns doing so.

    But I looked at the list of pastr inductees, and most names are unknown to me totally. I even looked the most recent names, and found this obscure person:

    Robert Bamford, 2013.

    Seriously? Who has ever heard of this feller and what did he ever DO to merit inclusion?


    How many MONTHS, YEARS or DECADES will these sore losers take to induct to their little hall the HENRY FORD AND THOMAS EDISON AND WERNER FOR BRAUN of the 21st Century?

    Huh, anklebiters?

  199. Kit Gerhart Says:

    197 Do they induct anyone while they are still active in the car biz? Probably not.

  200. Kit Gerhart Says:

    197. Not surprisingly, you hadn’t heard of Robert Barnforn, nor had I. He was a co-founder of the company that would become Aston Martin, in the early 1900s. How many Americans have even heard of Alec Issigonis? Probably not too many, even though he started the front drive, transverse engine revolution that dominates today’s cars and crossovers.

  201. Bob Wilson Says:

    I wonder how long it will take before the “oldest profession” decides the Tesla short shorts are prefect (see web link.)

  202. Kit Gerhart Says:

    200 An ad for the shorts showed up on my google search page. They are pricey, about $65 as I remember.

  203. Lambo2015 Says:

    199 Yeah Founder of Aston Martin. My grandson was able to find it easily in like 30 seconds.
    He doesn’t ever ask dumb questions that can be found online in a few clicks.
    Some people are so arrogant and difficult to be around they wont enjoy grandkids.