AD #3172 – Genesis Reveals More GV60 Details; Lordstown Could Sell Plant to Foxconn; Toyota Might Return to IndyCar
September 30th, 2021 at 11:54am
Listen to “AD #3172 – Genesis Reveals More GV60 Details; Lordstown Could Sell Plant to Foxconn; Toyota Might Return to IndyCar” on Spreaker.
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Runtime: 10:51
0:08 Lordstown Could Sell Plant to Foxconn
0:44 Toyota Might Return to IndyCar
1:30 Honda Jumps into VTOL Business
2:41 GM Launches New Software Platform
3:39 Rolls-Royce Going All-Electric By 2030
4:01 Genesis Reveals More GV60 Details
5:25 Ford Going After DIY & Maker Crowd with New Maverick
7:45 Public EV Charging Business Model Is Flawed
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LORDSTOWN COULD SELL PLANT TO FOXCONN
Lordstown Motors could sell its assembly plant to Foxconn according to Bloomberg. That would bring in much needed cash for Lordstown which lost three-quarters of its market value over the last year after its former CEO stepped down, likely for misleading statements about pre-orders for its truck. We think Foxconn would use the plant to make the Fisker Pear. Even though Foxconn built a huge manufacturing plant in Wisconsin, sources in the industry tell Autoline that the cement floor isn’t thick enough to support automotive operations.
TOYOTA MIGHT RETURN TO INDYCAR
Toyota might return to IndyCar racing as an engine manufacturer. That’s according to Racer magazine. Toyota won the Champ Car series in 2002 and the Indy 500 in 2003, but later dropped out of the series. In 2023 IndyCar is going to start using hybrid powertrains; a 2.4-liter twin turbo coupled with a KERS, or kinetic energy recovery system. Toyota is the world’s pre-eminent manufacturer of hybrid passenger vehicles, so it makes sense that it would be interested in racing hybrids at Indy. Roger Penske owns IndyCar, and he also owns the largest Toyota dealership in the United States, so there’s a lot of synergy surrounding this story.
HONDA JUMPS INTO VTOL BUSINESS
Flying passenger drones keep coming closer to reality. Now Honda is getting involved. It’s developing a VTOL, or a vertical take-off and landing aircraft, that’s powered by a gas turbine hybrid engine. Other automakers involved in VTOLs include Mercedes-Benz, General Motors, Toyota, Hyundai and Geely. Why so much interest from the car companies? Because these VTOLs are powered by electric motors and will be autonomous, technologies that play right into the investments that the auto industry is making.
GM LAUNCHES NEW SOFTWARE PLATFORM
Data monetization and subscription services represent the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for automakers. So GM is launching a new software platform that will help it tap into that. GM’s current electrical architecture allows for things like OTA updates, greater data bandwidth, cyber security and processing power. Its new system, called Ultifi, which uses Linux software, will do that on steroids. Engineers have separated key software systems into a new centralized layer that acts as a hub for other vehicle systems. This allows for accelerated software development and faster deployment. GM says customers should expect regular updates just like you get on your smartphone. They’ll also get personalization options and new apps. Ultifi will be used in both internal combustion and electric vehicles and it will first start showing up in 2023.
ROLLS-ROYCE GOING ALL-ELECTRIC BY 2030
When it comes to making electric cars, everyone is jumping into the pool. Even Rolls-Royce. It will have a fully electric lineup by 2030. No more ICEs. Here’s a prototype of the first electric car it will launch at the end of 2023. Rolls didn’t reveal any of its specs but it did say it will call the model the Spectre.
GENESIS REVEALS MORE GV60 DETAILS
And now we know more about the first electric car from Genesis, the GV60. It will come in three setups; RWD, AWD and performance AWD. All feature a 77.4 kWh battery pack. The RWD version has a 168-kW electric motor and an estimated range of 451 km or roughly 280 miles. AWD combines two motors for a total output of 234 kW or 313 horsepower and a range of 400 km or 248 miles. Finally, the performance AWD version has 320 kW or 429 horsepower and 368 km or 228 miles of range. With Boost Mode, a button on the steering wheel that increases performance for 10 seconds, the performance AWD version can do 0-100 km/h in 4.0 seconds. For even more driving fun, an electronic limited slip differential helps allow for a Drift Mode, which optimizes power distribution and braking. And while the GV60 seems like it will be a fun EV to drive, we still have not seen an on-sale date from Genesis.
FORD GOING AFTER DIY & MAKER CROWD WITH NEW MAVERICK
Ford is going after the DIY and Maker crowd with the new Maverick pickup. It’s posting short, online videos that show owners how to build their own accessories. For example, Ford dealers will happily sell you a $250 Yakima bike rack accessory, or you can watch a video of how to make your own for $45. The videos tell you exactly what kind of bolts, nuts, washers and wood to buy. The same goes for installing racks or lights in the bed or custom installing your own compressor. There’s even a QR code in the back of the bed that you can scan to get ideas for other projects. And Ford fully expects that owners will start posting their own videos of how to hack the truck. The Maverick comes with two 12-volt wiring packages in the bed with their own connectors, so Makers don’t have to slice into part of the wiring that could affect things like the taillights. Next up, you’ll be able to download the plans for 3D printing your own containers and cupholders that you can clip onto different parts of the interior with special tethers. This is a cool idea, and we think it’s an excellent idea of how to build a community around this truck.
If electric cars are ever going to catch on, there needs to be a nationwide network of public charging stations. But what if that isn’t a viable business model? John will be here in a minute with something to say about that.
PUBLIC EV CHARGING BUSINESS MODEL IS FLAWED
Electric cars will never hit their full sales potential until Ma and Pa America know they can safely travel far from home and easily find someplace to charge up. But the traditional automakers have no interest in building public charging stations. They want someone else to do it.
Same goes for the electric utilities. They’ll happily sell electricity to the charging companies, but they have no interest in making the big capital investment to build public charging stations.
So, in the United States, it’s up to the public EV charging companies. But their business model could be seriously flawed.
You see, gas stations don’t make much money from selling gasoline and diesel fuel. They make their money by selling lottery tickets, cigarettes and beer.
Mobil or Shell or BP don’t own those gas stations. They’re mom and pop franchises, who are not going to make big investments in EV chargers unless they know they’ll pay off. Right now, the numbers don’t pencil out. While prices can vary, a gasoline pump may cost around $15,000 while a high-speed charger may cost around $70,000.
Public chargers are typically in places like the parking lots of shopping malls, often sitting unused. And all they do is sell electricity. They don’t sell lottery tickets, cigarettes and beer.
We know the financial results for the publicly traded charging companies like EVgo and Chargepoint. They are bleeding red ink. Electrify America is not publicly traded, so we don’t know its numbers, but it’s probably losing a lot of money, too.
Of course, it’s still early days. These are startups, their top line growth is impressive and maybe once they’ve finished building a nationwide network they can start to post profits. But even then they’ll be competing against home charging, where EV owners get electricity that costs 30-50% less.
EV enthusiasts are posting road-trip videos of public chargers that are not working. If the public charging companies can’t keep their chargers up and running now, what happens when they add thousands more?
The auto industry is betting heavily on EVs. If sales of electric cars don’t ramp up as expected, those investments could turn out to be disastrous. And if the public charging companies don’t have a viable business model, well, then what?
That’s how I see it and we always welcome your feedback. But with that we wrap up today’s show, thanks for watching.
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Comments (41)
September 30th, 2021 at 12:13 pm
Foxconn built a plant in Wisconsin where the cement flooring isn’t strong enough to support automotive operations? Be sure to be the first to order one of their vehicles. Not.
September 30th, 2021 at 12:15 pm
I like the marketing strategy behind what Ford is doing with the Maverick. The DIY ideas are a good way to get owners engaged with the truck. It should help build a base of fans of the model….assuming the Maverick is reliable. None of it will matter if the Maverick is unreliable.
September 30th, 2021 at 12:31 pm
2 Now, if they would make an actual truck out of the Maverick, in addition to the thing with the four foot bed.
September 30th, 2021 at 12:37 pm
I don’t quite see the point of Indycar going to hybrid powertrains, with most of the races being on ovals. It’s not like F1, where there is a lot of heavy braking, where they recover energy. Maybe the KERS will be used strategically to pass, after filling the battery during times of following a train of cars. The hybrid powertrains will have more benefit for the Indycar road races. Still, it’s a lot more complexity, and cost for the teams to deal with, and if there are three engine builders, they will need to make them perform well, not just work reliably.
September 30th, 2021 at 12:40 pm
Foxconn plant in WI was originally built to manufacture flat screens and electronic components. Never intended to be an automotive plant. Not surprising that cement isn’t the correct thickness.
September 30th, 2021 at 12:59 pm
#3. 5-foot bed.
September 30th, 2021 at 1:14 pm
I remember reading that with RRs new platform CLAR, they had originally built it to accommodate BEV hardware, so no surprise with this announcement.The questions I have, though, are first, with this CLAR platform, Rolls Royce said that they had to add weight to their new Phantom built from those new set of bones. Saying that to get the riding and handling balance that the brand is known for, they needed to add the additional heft. This always seemed counter intuitive, but especially now that this will be the architecture of choice for their series of BEVs. The next question is whether their BEVs will sit on the same foot print as their ICE brethren? Compared with ICE, EVs can do the same or a lot more internally and be a lot smaller externally, so will they need to be such big cars? Finally and the most important question, with Rolls Royce having one of the most recognizable radiator grills, what will they do, how will their vehicles look without one!
The Genesis GV60 is really starting to warm up to me, especially seeing it in more colors! The range could be better, but it is livable. I just think it will be well above my price arrange.
September 30th, 2021 at 1:17 pm
3,6 Actually, 4 1/2 feet, according to multiple sources I find, and 54.5 inches according to one.
Either way, why not make a regular cab, or at least an “extended cab” version with a longer bed? Of course, maybe they will, after sales taper off from initial demand.
September 30th, 2021 at 1:21 pm
Racing is Driver & Machine vs Driver & Machine, not AI & Machine vs AI & Machine!
John you bring up an excellent point. If there is no where to reliably charge your electric vehicle who is going to buy them! I believe hybrids with smaller high density battery packs which are located under the rear seats along with a 1000cc or less gas electric generator under the hood which recharges the battery pack when it fall below 50% of state of charge is much better alternative in the long run.
This will give enough lead time for gas stations to switch half their facilities from gas pumps to electric pumps to accommodate pure EV charging. Maybe Dinners will make a come back on our interstates?
Also think about if there is a total black out, how are you going to charge your electric car? The electric generator in the car can recharge your car and keep the lights and refrigerator running in your house until the utilities companies get the power turned back on.
September 30th, 2021 at 1:22 pm
7 I suspect the electric Rollers will have a traditional looking, but non-functional grille. They should have a huge “frunk,” unless they put extra batteries there to increase range.
September 30th, 2021 at 1:25 pm
The public charging is also flawed because most EV owners will likely charge at home so their localized travels they don’t need a charger at the mall or store. If they are traveling they need a charger along side a major highway. So if charging takes an hour or more, what are they to do for that long besides eat? So investing in a charger might make sense for a restaurant along a highway but probably not in town. Can a business plan be made by a restaurant to justify a 70K charger for that one extra customer every 90 min or so? I doubt it.
September 30th, 2021 at 1:33 pm
@11 Lambo2015 – I totally agree with your statement. The reward does not out weight the current investment unless there are huge government subsides.
September 30th, 2021 at 1:34 pm
You have a good point John, the economics of the public charging industry is awful. But you need more than chips and smokes to make up the difference. Machinery 10x the price of gas, much slower turnaround and lower $ sales is a recipe for loss. That’s probably why Tesla is now open to sharing their Superchargers. They were right it’s an essential part of getting people into EVs, but now that they are known for the system, Tesla would like some cost sharing going down the road.
OEMs are again slow off the mark. They didn’t have to pay for gas stations and they’re darned if they will spend on chargers. So they wonder why Tesla has so much of the business. It would be interesting to know how important a factor the Supercharger network is to buying a Tesla. I expect it’s pretty high.
September 30th, 2021 at 1:50 pm
11 Something that could get me interested in an EV, short of home charging, would be if local restaurants had charging available. I often spend an hour or more at restaurants, and if I could get 50 miles of charge in an hour at a restaurant I like, I’d definitely consider an EV for one of my cars. Even the 20 miles/hour of charge from a 30 amp dryer outlet would make me consider it.
As you say, though, a restaurant is not going to want to spend big money for charging. Depending on their existing electrical service, though, it might not cost much to install a few 30 amp 240 volt outlets. I suspect most restaurants of any size have 100 amps of available capacity on their main panel, beyond what they are using.
September 30th, 2021 at 1:50 pm
#8. You’re right. 54.4″ to be precise.
One body style was critical to holding down the cost of the truck and launching with a base price around $20,000. So a regular or extended cab is not likely to happen.
September 30th, 2021 at 1:57 pm
14 Sad, but true. A regular cab hybrid Maverick would be a great replacement for a Ranger and S-10 used by a couple “handy men” I know, but I suppose they will be forced to buy used, huge trucks when the ones they have die, most likely from road salt induced rust.
September 30th, 2021 at 2:08 pm
13 A friend who bought a Model S about a year ago wouldn’t have considered a non-Tesla, because of the super chargers. With Tesla allowing non-Teslas to use their chargers, though, will their be queues at too many of the chargers? Tesla owners wouldn’t like that, nor would I blame them.
September 30th, 2021 at 2:09 pm
Everything in the ev market is moving to fast i see a crash coming in the auto industry, i agree with you John
September 30th, 2021 at 2:10 pm
In our city we have lots of competition in terms of ev charging Chargepoint, FLO, BC Hydro, Greenlots, PetroCan, City of Nanaimo, and of course Tesla. Most have high output DC charging. Hence let the free market provide the service and government should stay out of the way. Also the electric utility companies have expertise to provide the service. It seems that Tesla is putting their newer chargers in malls. There is also usually coffee near these chargers critical for driving long distances.
September 30th, 2021 at 2:12 pm
Kit Indycar runs more street and road courses than you think .They only run 3 oval tracks , Texas 2 races, Gateway and the Indy 500.So only 4 of this years scheduled 17 races were Ovals. 7 permanent road courses and 5 street courses.
September 30th, 2021 at 2:12 pm
In regard to EV charging, I think the entire business model — based on current battery and charging methods — is flawed. As a near 40 year veteran of the electrical industry, I find myself agreeing with most of my equipment supplier friends who are still scratching their heads on how the current business model is feasible without HEAVY government subsidies, let alone the extended travel times for anything greater than local travel. As of right now, it looks to many of us that the hydrogen business model is about the only non-hydrocarbon-based system with real potential outside of major metro areas.
September 30th, 2021 at 2:14 pm
Sorry 6 street courses
September 30th, 2021 at 2:28 pm
20,22 Thanks for info. It looks like I’ve lost touch with Indy Car, paying much attention only to the 500. For a few years, F1 has been the only racing series I have really followed.
September 30th, 2021 at 2:55 pm
The choice of the name Spectre is interesting. Especially considering that it will be used by a British brand. Looks like James Bond will be sticking with Astons!
Special Executive for Counter-intelligence, Terrorism, Revenge and Extortion (abbreviated as SPECTRE)
September 30th, 2021 at 3:21 pm
About public charging, this is where Tesl has an advantage from the get go.from 2012- 2013 when the Tesla SC was envisioned by Elon Musk, and now with Tesla building a Megapack battery assembly factory near Fremont they will eventually equipped all SC stations with Megapack batteries as the Fuel Tank – to buffer and help with grid balancing and ease demand charges,& store power from Wind and Solar as well, on top of having Tesla Autobidder Software with AI to predict the Electric Utility demand as in Energy Spot Pricing in the Market. Tesla Super Chargers are now built in Buffalo New York Giga2 and Giga 3 , Shanghai. And are being deployed Worlwide.
September 30th, 2021 at 4:36 pm
25 There was a Studebaker prototype called the Spectre . I saw it on display at the AACA Musuem in Hershey in 2019. It was a cool looking car with many really ahead of it’s time features.
September 30th, 2021 at 4:37 pm
Sorry 24
September 30th, 2021 at 5:28 pm
The answer is “the traditional automakers have no interest in building public charging stations.” Then give up building EVs!
No 3d party has a financial interest in the operation of traditional maker EVs. So service quality is low and price high.
The right solution is for the non-Tesla manufacturers to buy or build out a fast DC charging network they manage for their customers; A first step, any EV dealer must have a 24×7 fast DC charger on site. Then we’ll know they are serious.
September 30th, 2021 at 5:37 pm
26 Early fiftys production Studebakers were way “ahead of their time” in styling, and had some advanced features, like hill holding. Well, they had hill hold long before 1950.
https://flic.kr/p/28VHULo
September 30th, 2021 at 6:01 pm
28 Car companies did build gas stations when cars became commonplace with the arrival of the Model T. Oil companies did. Maybe electric utilities should build charge stations for EVs.
September 30th, 2021 at 6:05 pm
30 That’s car companies DID NOT build gas stations…
September 30th, 2021 at 6:24 pm
While, IMHO, there is still an opportunity for OEMs to step up on the miles per wattage front. Lucid has a long range vehicle with 450-500 miles on a charge! Even if it took 9-11 hours to charge, for eve long distance travel, that would be worth it. That would be driving most or all of the day, to recharge at night while sleeping at a hotel. The challenge would be getting that type of distance in a midsize/compact vehicle at a reasonable price to buy or lease.
September 30th, 2021 at 6:40 pm
John, i could not agree with you more. Also, to #11, charging time should be 30-45 minutes, depending how much you need for where you’re going. If fast charging then a place to use the restroom, have a coffee, buy a lottery ticket and a beer might just do the trick.
I for one would think current gas stations well situated should start thinking of the future and add a reliably functional charger so that people see it and learn to stop there when they go electric.
October 1st, 2021 at 4:23 am
26 XA351GT – Looked up the Studebaker Sceptre (sic). Doubt the “electric razor” grill would be legal nowadays! That led me to the outstandingly original Mercer Cobra built by the same Italian company. See https://mycarquest.com/2017/04/mercer-cobra-virgil-exner.html
EV Charging – The likes of Tesla’s lower power destination chargers don’t cost nearly as much as Superchargers. I tried looking up their cost in Tesla’s financial statements, but it’s not broken out.
Many people still opt for a Tesla expressly for the ease of the entire charging experience. In Europe, a full battery at departure and one or two 15 minute recharges give you nice autonomy.
Maybe limited (low-speed) autonomy coupled with exchangeable battery packs will solve the issue for cheap metro runabouts. They could trundle to a station at night. Crucially, the LiFePO4 chemistry allows many packs to be stored together without creating an undue fire hazard.
Tesla’s early exchangeable packs never caught on.
October 1st, 2021 at 8:00 am
I saw a short video and here is a link to the You tube video. This is a great solution in Taiwan for EV scooters. Still a 25lb swap so not ideal and not to scale for cars but I think this sorta things resolves the charging time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZigLuaijsI
October 1st, 2021 at 9:03 am
Lambo2015, thank you for the vid. I’d heard of Gogoro – they’ve made great progress. The swappable battery’s weight is 9kg, not 12kg / 25lb (see comments).
They wanted to expand to Berlin. See https://blog.gogoro.com/en/have-you-caught-a-smartscooter-in-berlin
It seems that was shut down towards the end of 2019. A pity, as expansion becomes far more risky without a standard.
Electric scooters are great just for their silence. Italy will never be the same…
October 1st, 2021 at 9:51 am
36 Oh if they are lighter then even better. I thought they said 25lbs during the video but I’ve watched a few of them. I’d consider a EV motorcycle if those recharge stations were available and not much more than gas fill ups.
I would think many of these ultra small inner city cars could use the same packs. Maybe just need 4 or 6 of them. But yea a standardized replaceable battery that’s as easy to pick up and replace as a gallon of milk would be a good start.
October 1st, 2021 at 10:44 am
Am I missing the point Johns comments about not being able to make money on electric chargers seems to be the same problem gas stations have with selling gas low profit margins. The gas stations overcame this by selling coffee, snacks, beer, lottery tickets. If I own a gas station and didn’t want to lose business I would install electric chargers along with gas. You have the customer for a longer time in and around your store and a greater chance of selling them something.
October 1st, 2021 at 10:55 am
Battery swapping for scooters is a great idea, as are electric scooters in general. I’m sure it’s a lot different now, but when I was in Shanghai in 1994, the air was awful with blue haze, probably mostly from the millions of two stroke mopeds and scooters. I suspect the two strokes are mostly gone, but large numbers of uncontrolled small four strokes are not good for air quality. Electric scooter will be a great solution for places with large numbers of small scooters.
It would be great if multiple scooter companies could agree on standardization of batteries, but that might be a tall order. Car companies can’t seriously standardize 12 volt lead-acid car batteries. You’d think car companies could agree on a lot fewer then 50 or 60 different sizes/configurations for a simple car battery, but checking a list of battery types on the Advance parts site, they haven’t.
October 2nd, 2021 at 8:58 am
The real issue is WHY electric! If it’s global warming you are pulling the wrong chain with electric cars. Only 40% of petroleum fuel usage is passenger cars. 60% is commercial fleets with mostly trucks. Hydrogen looks like a far better solution as electric line haul tractors are not practical. Trucking companies make money moving freight not parking being recharged! Commercial routes are also typically prescribed so a fueling infrastructure is far less complex.
October 7th, 2021 at 7:45 pm
EV CHARGING: John your missing a much bigger issue with EV’s. Business 101 is to create products and services the AMERICAN CONSUMERS actually want! Think logically. Current EV sales are only 2.5% in the U.S. Why so low? EV’s have been available for a decade. Even if there were expensive fast charge stations across the USA, consumers DON’T want to wait 20 min or 45 min to charge!! You assume they do. No they do not. Charge availability is just one issue for EV’s. The other issues are high price, lower range, long charge times, dealing daily with charge cords, and now battery fire risk/fear. So then the bigger question should be is why are so many Auto Maker Execs making these huge investments and why are they begging for federal regulations and subsidies? The answer might surprise you. Or it might not! The key is to follow the $$$$.