Episode 646 – Americans Support 62 MPG Standard, Next-Gen A6 Avant, JCI and Saft to Split

May 19th, 2011 at 11:52am

Runtime 8:13

Earlier this week the Consumer Federation of America said that Americans overwhelmingly support raising the fuel economy standard to over 60 miles per gallon . . . but they have no idea what it’s going to cost them!  Audi’s next-generation A6 Avant is scheduled for take off late this summer.  There’s a storm brewing between Johnson Controls and its battery partner, French company Saft Groupe.  All that and more, plus John responds to your questions and comments in the “You Said It!” segment.

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This is Autoline Daily for May 19, 2011. And now, the news.

THE HIGH PRICE OF HIGH EFFICIENCY
Earlier this week the Consumer Federation of America said that Americans overwhelmingly support raising the fuel economy standard to over 60 miles per gallon. Well maybe the people answering that survey had no idea what that would really cost them. According to economist Sean McAlinden at the Center For Automotive Research, to develop a fleet of vehicles that maintain today’s performance levels and get an average of 62 miles per gallon, would push the average cost of each vehicle to be over $55,000. He says that would cripple car sales, forcing more than a quarter of a million people out of work. Remember, this would require extremely expensive technology to boost the fuel economy of trucks to meet the standards.

CAFE BOONDOGGLE
I would also point out that we’ve had fuel economy standards for 33 years, that they’ve been tightened up several times over the years, and yet the U.S. today uses far more oil for cars and trucks than it did when those standards started. When the country goes into a recession, fuel consumption does temporarily drop, but then it goes right back up when the economy recovers. If we want to reduce our dependence on oil, the CAFÉ standards are not the way to go. We’ve got over three decades of evidence that they haven’t reduced our dependence on oil, not by one drop.

WE WANT THE A6 AVANT!
Audi’s next-generation A6 Avant is ready for action . . . almost.  The company is showing it off in this artsy-fartsy video.  The popular wagon delivers more features, more luxury and more efficiency – up to 18 percent better fuel economy than its predecessor.  And just like the sedan, the Avant offers a dizzying array of powertrain permutations, including six engine options – two gasoline and four diesel – as well as three transmissions – manual, dual-clutch automatic or continuously variable.  Front-wheel drive is standard but quattro is an available option.  The A6 Avant arrives at European showrooms late this summer with a starting price of roughly 41,000 Euros, about $59,000. Put it all together – with its utility, styling and efficiency – and we think it’s another vehicle Audi won’t be able to build enough of.

IRRECONCILABLE DIFFERENCES
There’s a storm brewing between Johnson Controls and its battery partner, French company Saft Groupe.  The Wall Street Journal reports JCI wants to end their five-year joint venture because the industry is moving so quickly right now the partnership is holding them back. But Saft opposes the move, claiming it “sees no legitimate grounds” for the divorce.  It says it lost $24 million last year from its 49 percent stake in the venture.

THAT’S K9, NOT CANINE
Before it brings its electric passenger cars to North America, Chinese automaker BYD, along with the Canadian company, East Wind Group will assemble electric buses in Windsor, Ontario. According to the Windsor Star, the bus, called the K9, was designed and developed by BYD and will be assembled from complete, knock-down kits in Windsor. The K9 is smaller than most municipal buses. It has a range of 300 kilometers or 186 miles and a top speed of just 43 MPH or 70 km/h. BYD says it takes six hours to charge using a 120 or 240 volt outlets or it can be charged in a half hour using a rapid charger BYD developed.

POLETOWN SHUTDOWN
And speaking of electric vehicles, GM announced that it will shutdown its Detroit-Hamtramck plant where it builds the Volt for four weeks starting in June. The company will make upgrades so it can assemble more Volts and get ready to build the 2013 Malibu. As a result, GM says sales of Volts will be restricted for the next three months before production resumes. However, the Volt will be available nationwide as well as ready for export to Europe, China and Canada by the end of the year. With the upgrades annual capacity for the Volt is 60,000 units. Production of the 2013 Malibu starts next year and I think this is the real reason for the shutdown.

Coming up next, it’s time for You Said It!

HtG saw our story that that Porsche may build cars outside of Germany for the first time and wrote in to correct us. “Porsche may build outside of der Vaterland?  John, I think they did this with the original Boxsters, which were made Finland. (almost the Vaterland).

Drat, he’s right. They were assembled by a company called Valmet in Finland. I guess we should have said this would be the first time that Porsche ever built its own manufacturing facility outside of Germany.

Dale Leonard has been watching our coverage of the up-and-down fortunes at Saab, and it’s pretty clear where he comes down on this story. He says, “Go-Victor-Go….Save that SAAB !!!!!!!!!!!!”

Dale, as you know, I hope he can pull it off, but I think you all know how I think this story is going to end. And I don’t think it’s going to end well.

Jesse saw our story on how, at their plants in the United States, Toyota and Volkswagen will fire workers who smoke, even if they don’t smoke at work. He says, “Yet another assault on smokers!  When will it end?  I quit several years ago but this nonsense still annoys the crap out of me!!”

Jesse, I agree. I don’t smoke, I hate cigarettes, but what people want to do on their own time is their own business. All a company has to do is charge them a little bit more on their insurance premiums.

SlimJim saw our report that Toyota will open a plant in the U.S. to make Corollas, where we said they now come in from Japan. He too had to correct us. “The Corolla is made in Canada and Japan, but mostly Canada for the N.A. market.”

RAFI KHAN watched our coverage of the new Honda Civic and wrote in to say, “John,
As soon as you said, “Honda is limiting production of the Civic due to the disaster.  I thought you’d say, ‘the disaster that’s the styling of the ‘new’ Civic.’ It’s really, really sad that after owning four Hondas, my next new car won’t be a Honda. Not only are the new Hondas ugly (and getting uglier), but they aren’t the trend-setters they once were in terms of fuel-economy and reliability. Hyundai/Kia today are what Honda and Toyota were years ago.”

Don’t forget to tune in to Autoline After Hours tonight at 7 p.m. Eastern Time. Join me and the Autoextremist, Peter De Lorenzo, for the best insider information of what’s going on in the industry.

And that’s today’s report on the top news in the global automotive industry. Thanks for watching, we’ll see you tomorrow.

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105 Comments to “Episode 646 – Americans Support 62 MPG Standard, Next-Gen A6 Avant, JCI and Saft to Split”

  1. HtG Says:

    KIA is going to be selling a 52.5mpg car in Europe presently. It’s the Picanto. When CAR says getting to higher mileage in the states will be prohibitively expensive, listen closely, since that’s true for cars with similar performance to today’s fleet. All you rollee pollees start laying off the starches, right this minute.

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Kia-Picanto-1.25-2-Ecodynamics/257035/

  2. HtG Says:

    hey, Audi Avant. INCOMING!

  3. jim Says:

    As John as stated many times, if the EPA would relax its emissions regulations only slightly, the U.S. could drastically increase its use of diesl engines. A turbo diesel engine or hybrid diesel could get to the 62 mpg without substantial new technology.

  4. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG ( & F1 fans )

    Read this and Weep some more ;

    http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110518/FREE/110519837

    This almost makes us even HtG for yesterdays tears . Almost .

  5. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG

    Pedantic correction ;

    Me thinks you meant C.A.R. not CAR which is the UK magazine I once was loyal to .

  6. tj Martin Says:

    Better MPG ?

    Simple Low Cost Solution .

    BUILD LIGHTER CARS !

    Now was that so hard ?

  7. tj Martin Says:

    A6 Avant ;

    Yeah we want it if Audi could manage just once to build a reliable car for the US .

    So far , in my experience , they’ve not even come close !

    ( and G.A. thinks he harps too much about diesels )

  8. Tony Gray Says:

    Another useless study. 80% of people want warp drive with dilithium crytal power too!

    Even our more “progressive” friends in Europe know that the only effective way to reduce fuel demand is to tax the snot out of fuel. We could easily raise the tax to a point where people cut out the “extreme excess” driving around without crushing commerce and the sheer pleasure of driving around sometimes. At the same time that extra cash could be used to fix our crummy infrastructure that in and of itself contributes to wasted fuel by creating bottlenecks and delays due to constant repair of insufficent road beds, inefficient highway design and poorly timed city signals.

  9. tj Martin Says:

    @ Tony Gray

    #8

    Tell that to all the Farmers , Delivery folks , Tradesmen , Cabbie/Limo Drivers , Retailers , Traveling Businessmen etc etc etc …….

    …. as well as all the folks you’ll be depriving of a decent meal when Food Prices skyrocket !

    I’m sure they’d appreciate hearing your words of Wisdom

  10. Andy S Says:

    HtG – I am happy to see you made the conversion from Imperial gallons to US gallons when gloating over the Picanto fuel economy. But don’t forget the EPA test cycle is much different from Europe’s, and the Picanto is a sub-B class vehicle.

    I agree with John and CAR – at today’s performance (space, safety, etc,), it’ll take NASA-like technology. As a reference, my Honda VTX motorcycle only manages 40 MPG at steady state 50 MPH in top gear That’s right, 40 MPG with only 2 contact patches on the road and a small frontal area (and admittedly not very areodynamic).

    The good news is B and C-Class cars are achieving touring bike levels of fuel economy and can haul twice as many people without exposing them to the elements. But it’ll cost dearly to get D-class sedans, crossovers, and pickups to do the same. To go beyond touring bike fuel economy (50% more to get to 62 MPG), will certainly kick many people out of the new car market and create a Cuba-like clunker car market.

  11. tj Martin Says:

    ” Progressive ” would not be my description of Europe’s way of dealing with things .

    More like Quasi Communistic , Dictatorial , Elitist Favoring , Overly Bureaucratic OverLords

    More ” Big Brother ” than ” Progressive ”

    Unless of course having much of your life predetermined by your Government is your idea of a great way of life .

    Nope ! The US may be a screwed up mess , but its still the Best screwed up mess there is . Worldwide !

  12. HtG Says:

    On fuel tax, one does wonder if a political leader could ever have the clout to persuade americans to pay more. Could a General Petreaus have the cred to overcome opposition? Anyone here old enough to remember Nixon?

  13. tj Martin Says:

    @ Andy S

    Aerodynamics and Weight . That’s the Key . At least the most available and cost effective solution at present .

  14. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG ;

    Jeeze . Now you’re sticking King Richard in my face ?

    Why don’t you just give H/S my home address and be done with it ? :o

  15. tj Martin Says:

    OK All right already !

    Lets get down to Brass Tacks and get of this ” Europe has the Solution ” kick shall we ?

    Have a real good look at the average pay anywhere in Western ( not Middle ) Europe

    Compare the cost of
    1) Buying a car
    2)Housing
    3) Clothing and essentials

    Take a good long look at the Income Tax Rates in Europe ….. and then before you go on the Health Care bandwagon , compare the Quality of Health Care between Europe and the US

    Then maybe … just maybe you’ll have an inkling why we do not want European Standards brought to the US wholesale .

    A Hint ? Have a look at the number of Americans immigrating to the EU vs EU citizens immigrating to the US . Its better than 30 – 1 in favor of them coming here .

    Maybe there’s a good reason for this ? Why yes there is .

  16. HtG Says:

    tj@13. lightness, slipperyness, and a low resistance drivetrain. That’s why I wave the Civic around. Honda got this equation down years ago.

    @14 On Nixon. Sorry. I was too young.

    But my point was that it’s a political loser to raise gas tax. Anyway, the growing economies in Asia will raise the baseline, and speculators will extract their premium. Good ol’ non-commie capitalism.

  17. Phoenix Mark Says:

    Yes I remember “Tricky Dick”. Jimmy Carter tried to get congress to raise the fuel tax, but no guts on the hill.

    Congress’ first job… get re-elected. Second job… bring home the bacon.. helps with first job. Last and least do what’s best for the country. We need to fire them all.

    Raising fuel taxes would be good for us. Tj, farmers have special diesel not for road use that is taxed less (died red). Auto diesel at truck stops is taxed less than truck diesel. So we have a multi tiered system of fuel tax now.

  18. HtG Says:

    Andy@10. Yes, I was too impatient to mention the different Euro test cycle. I wonder though, if people in little cars really suffer so much. At the car show last month I got to sit in the Scion Iq which has a very high seating position. From the driver’s seat I felt like I was in a Camry. Same thing with the Fiat 500. I saw one on the road as a Camry pulled alongside. Both drivers’ heads were at the same height. We also hear from tj that getting in and out of the Mini is getting less exciting.

  19. tj Martin Says:

    @HtG

    Phew ! I was just about to take a break in fear you might bring up the Reagan years next .

    Another even simpler , cheaper ( free actually ) solution to less fuel consumption ;

    Drive less voluntarily

    Combine trips into one instead of multiple individual journeys

    Keep your Tire Pressure Up !

    Don’t leave you car full of unneeded items ( weight )

    Pull your kid ( if you’ve got one ) off most of his/her after school activities ( here’s a clue . The better college and universities give preference to potential students who’ve focused on one or two things rather than the ones with multiple shotgun approach activities ; Journal for Higher Education )

    Now admittedly this solution demands a bit of your attention a modicum of effort and a soupcon of common sense which may be too much to ask of the American Public …. but there it is folks .

  20. tj Martin Says:

    Phoenix Mark

    You’re talking about the Mega Corporate Farmers , not the medium and smaller producers as well as the Organic farmers that have access to the lower tax diesel.

    And many if not most small to medium Delivery services use gas not diesel

    Haven’t you noticed as Gas Prices rise so does your Grocery Bill ?

  21. tj Martin Says:

    # 19 should of read ; Journal of Higher Education

    I’ll bet most of you didn’t know that little tid bit did you .

    Call it an insiders gift from tj .

  22. HtG Says:

    You got a problem with The Great Communicator? Then you want to have Netflix send you ‘Casino Jack’ with Kevin Spacey.

    One thing I see happening is fewer cars on the road. It’s clear that easy ways of using less fuel are being tried. When you see a mom stooping to fill the tires on her German luxury car, you know the word is out.

  23. Phoenix Mark Says:

    @tj,

    The Grocery bill has been going up for years.

    As for small farmer and other businesses that use fuel, just raise the business deduction for fuel or mileage credit.

    The survey that says must support raising CAFE to 60 is flawed. Well not really flawed, as just dumb. If asked I would guess that 99% of people would say they are under paid and that wages should be raised 25%.

  24. tj Martin Says:

    @HtG

    Getting in and out of the MINI .

    Its not the MINI’s fault , but rather that of my over 50 bones not enjoying/appreciating the process anymore .

    Honestly for such a small footprint the MINI is awfully roomy inside .

  25. Phoenix Mark Says:

    Tj,

    Don’t worry gas taxes aren’t going up any time soon. Congress would have to act, and we all know that isn’t going to happen.

  26. tj Martin Says:

    @ Phoenix Mark ;

    Watch the next time fuel jumps or drops , and see what food prices do .

    And seriously . I lived in and amongst the small to medium & organic farmers when we were in VT . Did business with most ( fresh eggs milk beef chicken etc. ) Let me tell you ;

    The last thing on Earth those folks need is a more complicated Tax Code than they’re already dealing with . On the State and the Federal Level .

    Their lives are on a continuous tenuous balance on a daily basis . Most hanging on by a slender thread .

    The only way they CAN stay in business is to continually raise their prices when the markets will allow . Which is seldom

    So like I said a week or two ago . Unless you’d like to spend the rest of your life eating Kimchi Soy and Ramen , those farmers cost to do business , of which Fuel is a major part of better be kept at a reasonable price .

    Its us , not them that should be adjusting to this new reality .

    Or its us and them that will suffer . Dearly !

  27. tj Martin Says:

    Gee….. has anyone figured out I’m a bit Jeffersonian in my political views ?

    :o

  28. tj Martin Says:

    @HtG

    When it comes to HRH Reagan I’m with Bruce Cockburn ;

    If there’s any justice and if reincarnation were real . Reagan should come back as a poor single pregnant women of color in the projects on welfare .

  29. HtG Says:

    did you mean Andrew Cockburn, tj?

  30. Phoenix Mark Says:

    Tj,

    “If there’s any justice and if reincarnation were real. Reagan should come back as a poor single pregnant women of color in the projects on welfare.”

    Don’t forget with a mental illness as well.

  31. len simpson Says:

    When I am king,all my subjects will drive electric
    polymer bubbles & they will bounce & careen, rather than crash & crush.

  32. Phoenix Mark Says:

    tj,

    Never seen food prices go down.

  33. Andy S Says:

    @ tj Martin #13
    You can’t get enough weight out. The VTX and rider are about 950 pounds, yet still only 40 MPG. And let’s not forget about safety (f=ma).

  34. Gavin Smith Says:

    I don’t think that legislation is required. The gas mileage war is on. Everyone is trying to figure out how to squeeze the most out of every gallon. I really think the market will determine what happens and we don’t need any more legislation. In the seventies there was an argument, but now, there is no cheap gasoline, so in order to maintain position in the market place, auto companies will have to perform in order not to be left behind by competition.

  35. pedro fernandez Says:

    People want more mpg’s but they also want more gadgets,convenience features, air bags, sound insulation, bigger wheels/tires, etc; it all adds up to more weight and less mpg’s dummy!!

  36. tj Martin Says:

    WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE AMERICAN AUTOMOTIVE BUSINESS

    For a first hand view of the trials and tribulations that can ensue when attempting to purchase/order an American car from a US dealer … head over to ;

    www,bangshift.com

    click on the FATCAD story …. take a minute ( its long 0 and read it .

    What a Horror story . All for wanting to buy American / Cadillac and a CTS-V Wagon .

    No wonder we’re in such a pickle . I thought my experiences were bad .

  37. tj Martin Says:

    http://www.bangshift.com

  38. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG;

    No……….. BRUCE Cockburn . CDN musician and sage .

    Philistine !!!

  39. tj Martin Says:

    @ Andy S

    The M/C world needs work on the Aerodynamics side .

    Sorry i wasn’t more clear on that .

  40. Tony Gray Says:

    My comments about the european gas taxes were to discuss a DIRECT relationship that is proven over there between cost and usage. It is the same with just about every commodity. Some are just more elastic than others, and some compensate with a larger black market than others.

    Some folks think that my opinion is that I don’t give a damn about the poor or the farmers, or small business or the snail darter, which is not entirely true. It is just a hell of a lot quicker and more effective a way to get folks to reduce consumption than CAFE ever was or will be. They will either drive less or shift to a more fuel efficient vehicle (if they can afford it) or use other modes of transportation. The societal costs of that increased tax was outside the scope of my comment.

    NOTHING is free, so, like John says, we wind up with ungodly expensive vehicles or we ratchet up the federal gas tax. Or we go back to fuel rationing like we had in the last embargo. Good luck with that.

  41. tj Martin Says:

    Tony Gray ;

    Quick Fixes = Major Long Term Financial Problems

    Economics – 101

    Not considering the long term consequences of an action before implementing it leads to disaster

    Philosophy as well as History – 101

    Even better luck with that !

    Hope you’ve got quite a stash of food stored up as well should your ” Quick Fix ” come into play . You’ll be needing it .

  42. Phoenix Mark Says:

    tj,

    I just check out the FATCAD story. Sad, very sad.

  43. pedro fernandez Says:

    The FATCAD story makes me realize that my idea to buy directly from the manufacturer is not that crazy at all! BTW Tj have you looked into the Endeavor?

  44. tj Martin Says:

    @ Tony Gray

    Your “snail darter ‘ comment was not only insulting , but irrelevant to my comment as well as out of context .

    I’m talking about PEOPLE . Not some soon to be extinct little creature but PEOPLE . You know ? Like your neighbors , the guy down the road that fixes your car , the gal that does your plumbing , the Farmer up the road that feeds you and yours .

    Remember those ?

    Or is in your very small world the well being of anyone besides yourself irrelevant ?

    Well let me educate you Mr Self Absorbed .

    Have even a few of those PEOPLE who’s well being you’re so willing to sacrifice in the name of an Ideology that doesn’t even work in the arena you so applaud ( EU ) no longer be around and we’ll see just how long you can continue to thrive/survive .

    My guess is …. not too very long .

    PEOPLE son . Without them YOU cease to exist .

    Might want to expand your universe just a tad and start thinking about other ……. PEOPLE !

  45. HtG Says:

    Infiniti EX35. Now there’s a car for a couple. And from experience, I can say that service at the dealer is tops. Loaner cars too.

    on Amir and his V, I wonder why a dealer would do a deal over the net with a stranger. The deal only happened when Amir contacted someone who knows him already. Did I get this wrong? Why can’t Amir be arsed to give the dealer some face time? The net is too full of scammers and fifteen year olds. (note to John, I left out the end of that last sentance, but you can guess)

  46. tj Martin Says:

    @ pedro – you talking about the Mitsubishi Enedeavor ?

    @Phoenix Mark – Aint it though ( sad story )

    FYI ; The reason no mental illness or addiction for the ” New ” Ronnie is you want to make sure he ( she ) is fully aware of the dire straights she’s in and not be able to be deluded by either drugs/alcohol or mental illness .

    So he can see the effects of his ” Trickle Down Economics “first hand .

    Its a cold blooded wish , but not unwarranted .

  47. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG

    Dealers are now over promoting Online Car Purchasing even to the point of offering extra discounts for NOT dealing with a salesman . So they can save paying the commissions .

    I think Amir’s point was how ineffective this strategy is in the real word . Ooops . I said it . Real World .

  48. pedro fernandez Says:

    yes tj

  49. HtG Says:

    but the internet salesmanager is the guy that knocked out the salesman. And that is one expensive car, no? It’s a big risk, so Amir could have built up some trust.

  50. tj Martin Says:

    The EX35 comes out pretty good on the Edmunds TCO calculator as well . May have to take a little drive to the dealer and give one a spin . Though like its big brother , the FX35 , I do wonder about the blind spots and that overbearingly loud exhaust even when gently pulling away or accelerating . Worth a look though .

    @pedro – I’d be a bit concerned buying a Mitsubishi what with their financial woes etc.

  51. HtG Says:

    EX35. Not the FX at all. This is a soft elegant ride. Refined interior too.

  52. pedro fernandez Says:

    Agree htg, when my sister got her Dodge last year, I did all the preliminary contacts with their internet dept when we got to the dealer, e “internet guy” send us to a salesman, just as if thwe had just walked off the street with not one single reference to what was discussed online, Very disappointed indeed. When I got my Toyota in 98 it was really through the internet dept head, but then again back then the whole internet sales thing was just getting started.

  53. HtG Says:

    soft as in soave, not as in mushy suspension

  54. pedro fernandez Says:

    Tj just from looking at the FX it seems to have blind spots galore, do you know on which platform the EX is built off?

  55. HtG Says:

    Murano, I think Pedro.

  56. pedro fernandez Says:

    TTAC is not crazy about the EX it’s built off the 350Z platform, so it is kind of tight inside. Te Endeavor is build off the Galant platform, far roomier

  57. pedro fernandez Says:

    The EX looks like a smaller FX along with its don’t bother turning your head to back up, just use the mirrors and pray!

  58. HtG Says:

    good call on the EX platform, Pedro.

  59. XA351GT Says:

    Of course people want 62.5 MPG gas costs near $4@gal. They also want it for everyone else so they can still drive their land barge SUV to pick up a gallon of milk .

    TJ , about the F1 article, how is Renault part time? They have their own team and supply engines to oh I don’t know the World Champions. What the hell are they talking about??

  60. tj Martin Says:

    Xa351GT ;

    Renault in theory ( least this is what Renault says ) no longer OWN the F1 Team as it is now officially the Lotus Team . So in theory they are now reduced to Engine Supplier status , eg the part time comment .

    @pedro & HtG The EX is the same platform as the G35 .

    Darned expensive little stinker as well . They want more for a used 2008 EX35 with 30K than I can get a 2010 GLK with 20K miles for .

  61. tj Martin Says:

    @pedro

    What is TTAC ?

  62. pedro fernandez Says:

    Thetruthaboutcars.com I like reading their articles, like you and I, they believe the best from Japan came in the late 80′s to the mid 90′s.

  63. tj Martin Says:

    @ pedro ;

    Boy but does TTAC love the GLK and the XC60 . Funny they don’t review the X3 and their comments about the FJ were pretty much on the money . Noisy , crude , and hard to see out of . The ” not wanting to go over 70mph comment didn’t make me happy either

    Hmmn .

  64. Alex Kovnat Says:

    >THE HIGH PRICE OF HIGH EFFICIENCY
    >Earlier this week the Consumer Federation
    >of America said that Americans over
    >whelmingly support raising the fuel
    >economy standard to over 60 miles
    >per gallon. Well maybe the people
    >answering that survey had no idea
    >what that would really cost them.

    John, you are right in pointing out what the proposed 60 MPH standard may cost the consumer in high cost just to buy a new car. But remember too that while you can buy a Corvette for that kind of money nowadays, the $60K, 60 MPG cars we may be restricted to in the future will not be anywhere near the performance of even an old Ford Pinto, let alone a ‘Vette.

    Will tomorrow’s $60 grand, 60 MPG wondercars even be able to reach 60 miles per hour AT ALL, let alone accelerate from zero to 60 in the 15 seconds that we expect from even the most mediocre cars of the 1980 timeframe?

    Did the Consumer Federation of America ask those who took their survey, if they would still prefer 60 MPG requirements even if it not only led to extremely high purchase cost but also extremely low performance as well?

  65. Alex Kovnat Says:

    BTW in the above, I should have said 60 MPG in the first line, not 60 MPH

  66. tj Martin Says:

    Maybe I’ll just have one more Mid Life Fit and find an older Air Cooled 911 Carrera4 and have the Porsche specialist do a ” Petunia ” to it . Naahhhhh . Thats just crazy talk .

    ( Petunia was Porsche aG’s code name for the raised suspension Carrera4 they built to herald in the Cayenne .Skid plates , 10″ ground clearance A/T tires and all . Kind of sick but kind of fun )

    Sometimes this common sense thing gets old .

    Oh well .

  67. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    WE DEMAND HIGHER FUEL EFFICIENCY!!!

    WE’RE TIRED OF YOUR 40 MPG SMALL CARS THAT GET 50 MPG WITH NEARLY THE SAME POWER IN EUROPE!!!

    YEAH THAT GOES FOR YOU TOO HYUNDAI/KIA

    WE’RE TIRED OF STAGNATION

    WE’RE GETTING TIRED OF THE BOOMERS TOO

    AND YOU MIGHT HAVE TO BE REMOVED BY FORCE

    THE BABY BOOMERS WANT STAGNATION TO THE POINT TO WHERE IT’S HURTING PEOPLE NOW, AND STAGNATION AND CONSERVATIVE THOUGHT ARE ATTRIBUTES OF DECLINE!!!

    tj, I swear dude Im not in the mood today, and I will rip you a new asshole. I dare you to say anything slick man.

    YOU TJ ARE THE ANTITHESIS OF THE COMMON AMERICAN WHO WALLOWS IN STAGNATION AND OLD IDEAS, AND WHEN IT’S TIME WE WILL HAVE YOUR HEAD.

    IF YOU DONT CHANGE, WE WILL HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO BOYCOTT THE CAR COMPANIES!!!

  68. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    40 MPG, PLEASE.

    YEAH 40 MPG IS GREAT FOR SOMEONE WHO GREW UP WITH 20 MPG AMC PACERS, BUT FOR A NEW AGE YOU GOT ANOTHER THING COMING.

    THE MUCH NEEDED 40 MPG MY ASS.

    YEAH MUCH NEEDED 40 MPG IF YOU’RE 60 YEARS OLD.

  69. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    EVERYBODY WITH THEIR IGNORANCE AND COWARDICE REGARDING THE COMING CHANGE MAKES ME SICK!!!

    - YOU DESERVE $10 A GALLON GAS IN A CRISIS SITUATION.
    - YOU DESERVE TO HAVE YOUR PRIVACY AND YOUR RIGHTS TAKEN AWAY.
    - YOU DESERVE TO HAVE YOUR WEALTH TAKEN AWAY.
    - YOU DESERVE TO HAVE BLOOD IN THE STREET.
    - YOU DESERVE TO LOSE THAT PENSION
    - YOU DESERVE TO LOSE THAT RETIREMENT.
    - YOU DESERVE TO HAVE $6-7 A GALLON AS NORMAL.

    I TRIED TO BE NICE AND WARN YOU, BUT SOON YOU WILL PAY FOR YOUR INSOLENCE IN CONFLICT.

    AND YOU WILL EVERNTUALLY GIVE ME YOUR “YOU TOLD ME SO.”

  70. pedro fernandez Says:

    I guess H/S misses old Bob,Thor,et.al that he now is going to UPPER CASE everything he writes to add excitement or ANGER to his words, let me try it: HONDA, TOYOTA I DEMAND THAT YOU GO BACK TO THE MID 80′S TO 90′S AND BUILD THEM CARS LIKE YOU USED TO, WHEN THEY WERE BUILD TO LAST, AND EASY TO MAINTAIN AND REPAIR. there, I feel much better now.

  71. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    - ENJOY YOUR BIG CARS WHILE YOU CAN.
    - ENJOY THE IDEA OF BEING ABLE TO BUY CHEAP IN CHINA GOODS WHILE YOU CAN.
    - ENJOY YOUR CHEAP FOOD WHILE YOU CAN.

    I HAVE A FEELING MANY OF YOU WILL BE THE PENNILESS WINOS I SEE IN THE FUTURE ASKING ME FOR CHANGE AS I GET OUT OF MY CHROMED UP VELOSTER TURBO WITH LAMBO DOORS ON THE WAY TO SOMETHING NEW AGE AND THATS ACTUALLY IMPORTANT- UNLIKE THE USELESS OUTDATED CRAP YOU GUYS DABBLE IN TODAY.

  72. tj Martin Says:

    HyundaiSmoke ;

    HaHaHaHaHa

    The Psychotic Hummingbird is going to rip me a new one ?

    Damn if that isn’t the funniest piece of fluff I’ve read in months

    You made my day there HyundaiSpam

    Bring it on little one

    Take your very best shot

    I’m sure we’ll all get a major laugh from it .

    HyundaiSmoke is gonna rip me a new one . Did you see that HtG pedro et al ???

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    ( I’ll be laughing for hours you pathetic little ________ )

  73. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    Good Pedro.

    Yeah it does feel good.

    Let out that anger.

  74. pedro fernandez Says:

    Duh, I ain’t got no wealth, pal, otherwise I wouldn’t be driving a 98 Corolla with over 300k miles that shakes more than the 50 foot woman’s personal vibrator.

  75. tj Martin Says:

    My imitation of a HyundaiSmoke post ;

    anw4y4v5ibf ww77dnnd jsusuw7bwn didis9wy39fgw ekrtn sdwyeejidib jsusyebe juwyevekidgwv iduwveesiu iueebish ishwvndi ueej273t595g2be@^&DW jsbeieei iuvw #%&%#FGbeuevudbik

    On a good day !

  76. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    tj,

    Well, I think you’re Nick Stvens.

    What about that my saged one?

  77. tj Martin Says:

    Excuse me

    Todays H/s imitation

    NEIEBRJ EEIRHEBEJ4755B I44IRE 8EEJEIFFE74 JEORB IDHEORH9 IWEEBEJEIY DEYEE IEEBEJ 74585
    563655 JF8EBIUB

    Thats better Forgot the caps .

    Here H/S

    Tj’s waiting for you and I don’t have all day !

  78. HtG Says:

    A guy I know just plays World of Warcraft after work. And then he’s good. HS bangs out rants on his doodle dust covered keyboard. Who threatens people over the net? You’re not really that scared, are you tj? Maybe of Pedro’s Vibrolla, I can see that.

  79. tj Martin Says:

    That your best shot H/S ?

  80. tj Martin Says:

    HtG

    Not to worry mate .

    If thats the best he can do . Well thats not even worth a good laugh never mind getting angry about

  81. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    Strange how we’re here to talk about cars, yet somebody wants to talk about people. You may totally disagee with me and my political athieist bent, but do I talk about people? Not.

    Are you that low of a person that talking about people on a computer from far away makes you feel like a big man?

    So petty and personal, then again that’s an attribute common in this generational cohort.

    Like Children in Middle School who have such a shitty life they feel the only way to build themselves up is to tear others down.

    Claps hands…

    Wow you’re a big man.

    You’re losing it all, and it’s making you guys go stark raving mad. It’s called change, and considering the example of what I’ve been given when it’s my turn to step down so new things can come I will gladly and immediately go.

    Mr Sheen 2.0 I see.

  82. tj Martin Says:

    Well H/S ;

    If thats the best you’ve got to offer I’m afraid I’ll be calling it a night .

    Seriously though I am disappointed . I was so looking forward to a good laugh or two .

    Instead as always … you just bored me again .

    …….zzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

  83. pedro fernandez Says:

    HtG thanks for the name, Vibrolla, perfect fit I will go as far as replacing the COROLLA letters in the trunk lid with VIBROLA, who knows? it may get me some dates.

  84. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    Night toe jam, because I’m not going to resort to pettiness.

    Strange you guys taught us to be better than that, yet fail to live by your ethos.

  85. HtG Says:

    HS, if it were not for the govt and central bank supporting the financial system, we’d all be fighting over potatoes. This economy is already nuked. You want to go inform yourself on the cheap? Read the Naked Capitalism blog by Yves Smith. The banks are insolvent. The mortgage securities are void. Everyone’s pension is underfunded and based on assets held up by Bernanke and prayers. It’s now douchebag.

  86. pedro fernandez Says:

    HS seriously if cars here were to get those mpg numbers they would need to be tiny 3 cyl engines, putting out an measly 50 or 60 HP in lightweight cars that could never meet the stringent safety and pollution standards now required. We would have to start from scratch

  87. tj Martin Says:

    HyundaiSmoke

    Don’t you think it just a tad bit hypocritical that one minute you’re calling me out with threats and abuse and the next you’re crying foul to your mommy and claiming to be the Victim ?

    Pathetic . I’d say sad , but pathetic fits better .

  88. tj Martin Says:

    And also seriously H/S

    You need to drop the Extreme Right Wing Conspiracy Theory Websites from your daily browsing . You’ll find you might actually have something of your own to say instead of your Cut& Paste BS .

    And who knows . You might even make a point now and again .

    But … well .. as long as you keep up with the Cut & Paste routine ?

    Don’t expect anyone to take you seriously or not condemn the foolishness you put up .

  89. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    HtG, my whole point is the Central Banks can no longer support America’s drug habit with our creditors- China who is looking to close their bank to us, and Japan who is ovbiously out of commission.

    - State and local governments are purging workers as we speak= less tax revenues for the business who depended on them. I know people with sweet jobs, and even they are now being forced to make sacrifices.

    This will happen to Federal workers soon.

    - The Dollar Index has been flirting with that 72 trigger bomb for weeks now. The creditors are starting to wake up and are slowly dumping their treasuries.

    - Our debt and obligations are unpayable- $106 trillion in unfunded obligations the last time I checked. The International creditors are waking up to this, and are waiting for the US to take budget action. The Budget action they will be forced to take will cause immediate protest and even riots.

    - The Fed is still not raising the interest rates to meet the delta curves (change) on inflation, and the more this continues the worse the consequences of this will be.

    - Saudi Arabia will blow up, because change is destined for every nation on the planet. When they blow up PPB (price per Barrel) will be $200. With a declined dollar we were paying $4 at $100 PPB, with an increasingly declined dollar+ $200 PPB I wouldn’t be shocked if we see $10 a gallon.

    By this time next year they wont even be able to afford to plug in potholes much less pay for social programs = CRIME TIME- BIG TIME!!! EVEN YOUNG CHICKS WHO GOT 4.0 IN COLLEGE, AND USED TO HAVE SWEET JOBS WILL BE ON THE STREET SELLING DOPE SEX OR WHATEVER.

    Simply put, regardless of what they do we are fucked. Dont vote in 2012, lets have an Egypt party and not put in any of the establishment.

    If you’re a Dem, Tea Partier, or Republican= YOU’RE NOT INVITED TO OUR PARTY AND IF YOU TRY TO COME WITH YOUR OLD IDEAS YOU WILL BE MET WITH FORCE.

  90. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    Not these are Political Athieist real time facts, my saged one.

    It actually kind of pisses me off that it’s the right wingers that are the only ones being even remotely truthful about economics, while most of the Lefties act like children over protecting THIS CORPORATE PUPPET OBAMA.

  91. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    It’s not about Obama as all of them are in this together fattening up their nest eggs, while they do deals that help their Corporations, at a time when shanty towns keep springing up.

    We Progressives were duped by a man (Obama) with good intentions, that ultimately had the cowardice to sell us out to the real rulers of America.

  92. cwolf Says:

    tj: FYI, I prefer not making my selections suggested to you based upon mags and the net. Unfortunately I could only find one person,my uncle, who drives an EX to Florida for the winter. Boasts about the ride and seating comfort. He states the mps are pretty good. His salesman discouraged the purchase of the larger model due to a drastic mpg reduction. If it was’nt for the fact they have most of their belongings at the second home, hauling would be a problem. The cargo area hauls eveything they(aunt/Uncle) need for the 2-3 day travel. His EX problem free for the 2 years, except for a seat control unit. It sounds like it is worth a test drive. Surprised by the pricing you mensioned!

  93. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    Pedro, the Hyundai Verna with 1.4 engine gets near 50 MPG in other counrtries.

    The KIA Rio with 1.2 GDI Turbo is slated to get over 50 MPG under our standards and it gets 135 HP. Too bad Americans cant have it.

    The Koreans have a Hybrid system designed for small cars that gets 106 MPG in Plug in Mode, AND MORE POWER THAN THEIR NEW ACCENT/RIO. They also have a set up mild system for small cars that gets close to 50 MPG.

    I wouldnt be bitching if this wasnt obtainable, much less available and we cant have access to it.

    The products are here and either ready or almost ready, and they are forbidden fruit in America.

    The French have such product too.

    Americans bitch about Diesels, but the Koreans sell Diesels in the EU with good power and well over 50 MPG.

    This is just Korea, everybody else can do it too.

    THEY JUST DONT WANT TO PAY FOR THE MODIFICATIONS THAT IT TAKES TO PASS THE EPA TESTING.

    FUCK THE EPA, ID RATHER HAVE POLLUTED AIR THAN 40 MPG CARS WITH $6-7 A GALLON AS NORMAL.

    THE EPA NEEDS TO CHANGE TOO OR GO!!!

  94. HtG Says:

    sorry HS, I’m going to watch AAH, then read Obama’s speech from today. That’s all the attention I got left.

  95. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    Back to Politics though.

    We need a One World Government, a New World Order.

    It’s the only solution to the problem.

    It’s too late to go back now. To resist is futile, and you will be killed, or you will be detained.

    Do your research, the best way to world government is to get nations to have central banks that rig the economy by pumping out free money. Libya is one of the very few nations that doesnt have a true central bank attached to the world system. They are making Libya have a central bank attached to the world system come hell or high water, and if they means starting a civil war then fine.

    They will have a North American Union, and if that means starting a Civil War in US- (between Liberals and Conservatives, the Different Races, Young Vs Old, Rich VS Poor), Canada (between Liberals Conservatives the Different Races Young Vs Old, Rich VS Poor) and Mexico (Criminal Gangs VS Criminal Government, Poor VS Rich, Different Ethnic Groups) then fine.

    We will have world government. We need a North American Union. The Conditions are perfect in America to create a situation that would require martial law using international troops as a police force.

    America is very destabilized right now and we can fight off an invasion, but we cant fight off:
    - A POS Currency with $106 Trillion in unfunded obligations attached.
    - A Cotroversial President that also brings up the race question.
    - Increased Tensions between different Racial Groups.
    - Increased Tensions between different class groups.
    - New Radical Conservative, Progressive, Libertarian, Athiest, Christian, Muslim, Socialist, Corpratist Ideologies growing under the surface with the people- A Hunger to dump the Old Current Day system.
    - A Horrible Recession with Millions of unemployed.
    - A Horrible Real Estate Crisis.
    - Sluggish and Fragile Growth backed by adding more money to those Unfunded Liabilities.
    - Ongoing Mass Military inventions.

    America like Mexico and their states, just like Canada and it’s provinces are an antiquated form of government. Just look at Michigan, and pretty much 2/3rds of the country. The state governments have become ponzi schemes that promise services, and improperly doles them out. The state govenrments in fact inefficiently waste taxpayer dollars, and are a risk for seccession lately. We can not allow our new American state within the North Americna Union to lose territory. Those westerners might secceed. The seccessionist talk in the West is a enough for Obama to put troops on standby.

    They are rigging America to fall so we can have World Government, and that’s fine. We need the New Babylonian economic system described in Revelations.

    This country can not be trusted anymore to take care of the world OR EVEN IT’S OWN PEOPLE REGARDLESS OF RACE, CLASS, GENDER, REGION, ETC…, and it needs to be controlled by an outside entity.

    Will it be a Heavenly higher power, or an evil higher power? That will be the tug of war in the future.

    We need a new currency too. World Government is not a bad thing, and considering the circumstances it’s a neccessary thing.

  96. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    States, Provinces, and Territories in their current form should function like counties do today. Counties should function like cities, while Cities and Townships should function like neighborhoods.

  97. HtG Says:

    kh! kh! k! h! kh! kh! kh! k! k!

    It’s a drive by rant a tat tat

  98. tj Martin Says:

    Would someone on this blessed Website ( webmaster who ever ) do something about this Insane Spam King HyundaiSmoke and get his ( ______ ) kicked off here once and for all !!!

    If I wanted to read this kind of crap , all I’d have to do is drop my Spam Filters and at least 100 of this sort of thing will show up on my inbox by noon .

    I keep my Spam Filters On because I DO NOT WAN TO READ THIS GARBAGE .

    And I sure as ( ____ ) don’t want to read this Conspiracy Theory Garbage on an Automotive WebSite .

    So Here’s the DEAL AutoLine Detroit . Either HyundaiSmoke disappears ( as he’s been forced to by every major Automotive Website WorldWide ) or I do .

    Having this site constantly mucked up by his INSANE ramblings Day after Day is becoming more than I care to deal with .

  99. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG

    Sorry mate , I am majorly PO’d and I have had it with H/S Multiple Spam posts and the fact that ALD lets him remain .

    His form of garbage belongs in only one place .

    The Trash .

    So if I’m gone by the end of day , you’ll understand .

  100. tj Martin Says:

    Just in case ALD choses to do nothing about H/S my farewells to pedro , cwolf , G.A. ,Kit Gerhart and to anyone else who’s moniker skips my mind this morning . ( just finishing the first cup you know )

  101. HtG Says:

    I just don’t read any of it. I can recognize HS stuff just by the mass, and don’t let my eyes and brain hook up. It looks like ALD will let anything go,as a policy. I hope you won’t leave, tj.

  102. Tony Gray Says:

    So tj, you go on a campaign to have HS banned for his spam posts and diatribes, yet you see no issue with telling me to get educated and calling me Mister Self-Absorbed, even though you know absolutely nothing about me, my background, my eductation or experiences.

    Curious.

    Don’t take this as defending H/S’s statements, nor his “right” to say them…I believe this is an automotive forum and we should at least ATTEMPT to keep things in that arena.

  103. tj Martin Says:

    @ Tony Gray ;

    Its not the insults or confrontations I’m complaining about , and I’d think regardless of your Education you’d be able to see that .

    A good head on now and again as happened between you and I on a serious issue , dealing with reality , whether I win or lose , with the occasional ” In Your Face ” comment I have nor problem with .

    I’m an Adult , can more than hold my own in an argument as well as take my licks when deserved .

    Its H/S’s relentless Off Topic , Conspiracy Theory , Cut & Paste ( there’s nothing he posts that isn’t in at least 100 other places ) Diatribe as well as the Amount of Garbage he posts that I am complaining about .

    This morning alone I had to wade thru , what 100 lines of his garbage just to get to a bit of good advice and information from cwolf .

    That along with H/S’s unrelenting Schilling for Hyundai/KIA which is why the little prat has found himself banned from serious and regulated ( some overly so admittedly ) Automotive Sites Worldwide

    Does THAT Satisfy your Curiosity ?

    FYI Re-Reading your post to me its not like you considered for a moment who i might be either TG so I’d say we’re even on that score .

  104. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG

    Another morning like this ( wading thru H/S’s garbage to get to cwolf’s good comments ) I do not need .

    As I’ve explained , after the events of the last three years ( two family deaths , 3 years managing ones alzheimer care and a family more intent on what they can get than the well being of said two family members )

    My BS Tolerance Factor is at about ZERO .

    This morning being the Straw if you get my drift .

    If its any consolation , you and the others will be missed if leaving is what happens . We’ll see .

  105. pedro fernandez Says:

    Tj at least we got a break from Sybil.