Episode 654 – Car Sales Slow in May, UPS Tests Lightweight Trucks, End of Chrysler in Europe

June 1st, 2011 at 12:11pm

Runtime 9:40

Car sales in the American market slowed down in May. J.D. Power forecasts that the SAAR rate will come in at only 11.5 million units. UPS is testing a fleet of lightweight trucks made with composite body panels which reduce the weight of the truck by 1,000 pounds compared to its normal delivery trucks. Fiat decided to dump the Chrysler brand in Europe and slap Lancia badges on them instead. All that and more, plus John answers your questions about Chevy, labor negotiations and much more in the “You Said It!” segment.


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This is Autoline Daily for June 1, 2011. And now, the news.

Car sales in the American market slowed down dramatically in May. J.D. Power forecasts that the SAAR rate will come in at only 11.5 million units. It had been running at 13 million. Now the question is, what’s causing the slow down? Is it higher gasoline prices, a slowing economy, the continuing housing crisis, a loss of consumer confidence? Or is it simply a matter of a shortage of Japanese-brand cars? Automakers will start reporting May sales tomorrow and that will give us a clearer picture. One thing to be on the lookout for: Truecar.com predicts that Hyundai/Kia will outsell Toyota/Lexus. And that would be a big WOW!

India is starting to turn into one red-hot automotive market. Sales there are sizzling. So who are the major players? J.D. Power just compiled this top-ten list and the rankings may surprise you. So far this year the top seller is Suzuki, which is teamed up with Indian automaker Maruti, and sells more cars in India than the other top-nine automakers put together. Second place, by another wide margin, goes to the Hyundai Group. Then there’s a very tight pack: Volkswagen, General Motors, Toyota and Ford. Then there’s a big drop-off to Honda and the Renault-Nissan Group, while Fiat and BMW trail well behind. Sales in India are well behind China, but with a population that’s expected to surpass China, India has the potential to become the second-largest car market in the world in another decade or two.

The delivery company UPS is testing a fleet of lightweight trucks across the USA. The trucks, called the CV-23 prototype, use composite body panels which reduce the weight of the truck by 1,000 pounds compared to its normal delivery trucks. Powering the prototypes is a four-cylinder diesel made by Isuzu.  It’s mated to a six-speed automatic transmission from Aisin. The goal is to see if the package can deliver a 40 percent improvement in fuel economy. UPS is testing five vehicles in five cities across the country until the end of the year in order to see how they work in different conditions.

Speaking of fuel economy, Ford CEO, Alan Mulally is in Washington D.C. lobbying Congress to adopt one fuel standard for the entire U.S. He’s saying that because California is considering writing its own rules, which could be adopted by other states. Ford and other automakers would like to avoid a patchwork of different fuel standards and instead have just one standard for the U.S.

No more Chryslers in Europe, at least not with the Chrysler brand name on them, that is. Fiat decided to dump the brand in Europe and slap Lancia badges on them instead. Marchionne and company say they can’t afford to support the two brands so they’re going with one. Bloomberg reports that Paolo Mazzali, an Italian car dealer who spent a decade selling Chryslers, calls them “emotional” vehicles, equating them to Harley Davidson motorcycles.

Audi – along with Seat, Skoda and Vee Dub – is celebrating its annual enthusiast gathering at Wörthersee, in Austria. To mark the 30th anniversary of the occasion, which runs from today until June 4, the company is unveiling a new show vehicle. The A1 Clubsport quattro is a racy-looking B-car. It features a 2.5-liter turbocharged five-cylinder engine that delivers a walloping 503 horsepower! Even with all-wheel-drive on board this thing is a featherweight by today’s standards, tipping the scales just at a hair more than 3,000 pounds. Zero to 60 should take a mere 3.7 seconds! Beyond raw performance, the car also showcases the latest accessories Audi’s offering for the A1, which includes a lineup of body decals as well as interior and exterior trim add-ons.

Can’t a guy catch a break? After his limousine ran aground in Ireland, President Obama traveled to London where the city’s department of transportation is charging a congestion fee to each of the 20 vehicles is his motorcade. According to the AFP, the ten-pound fee, about sixteen bucks, is charged to all vehicles traveling at peak times in central London, with no group discounts for the leader of the free world. Some embassies in London, including the American one, have complained of the charge, saying it amounts to a tax, which they should be exempt from. The city says it is owed 51 million pounds — $83 million — by various diplomats who have objected to the fee.

Coming up next, it’s time for You Said It!

And now it’s time for some of your feedback.

LEX saw our report that the next-generation Chevy Impala will be built in Detroit and wonders, “Do you have any clues as to what changes we can expect in the new Impala? Will it be a version of a Holden vehicle? When can we expect to see the Holden/Chevy Caprice Police Cruiser in the USA?”

Lex, I don’t think we’ll see huge changes. Remember, the Impala is mainly a fleet vehicle. Last month Chevy sold 21,000 Impalas. Only 5,000 of them were retail sales, the rest were fleet. So GM is not going to pour all kinds of investment and technology into a fleet car. That suggests no Holden-based Impala. As to the Holden-based Caprice police cruiser, we ought to see if pretty soon. All kinds of police departments are testing the car and when they’re ready to buy, Chevy will be ready to sell.

G.A. Branigan says, “Okay, Chevy will be selling diesels here in the USA? In what vehicles? How about compact trucks? Since you seem to know John how about sharing this info. Inquiring minds want to know….”

G.A., word leaked out earlier this year that Chevy could put a diesel in the Cruze, and while GM will not confirm it, they haven’t denied it, either. As to putting a diesel in its compact pickups, that would make a lot of sense, but I wouldn’t expect if for another four years.

pavilion1985 saw the most recent Autoline Detroit show on labor issues and says, “Great episode. Do we have any idea as to what percentage of transplant workers would be open to unionization?”

Pavilion, very few. The UAW has tried organizing Honda and Nissan for nearly 30 years and got nowhere. I don’t see why things would change.

MrAvalanche2004 saw the report on the different type of car horns used around the world and says, “I think they should bring back the old auugaa horn.” Well, here you go.

jjpg2000 knows that we’re going to give away autographed copies of Bob Lutz’s new book, “Car Guys vs Bean Counters.” And he knows that they way to win it is to send a letter or email to your local public television station and ask them to carry Autoline Detroit. He says, “Sent an email to KCTS here in Seattle. Love the show, and I hope it will be picked up in more areas.”

Good move, jjpg, and anyone can enter by going to bit.ly/AutolineContest.

And that’s today’s report on the top news in the global automotive industry. Thanks for watching, we’ll see you tomorrow.

Thanks to our Partners for embedding Autoline Daily on their websites: Autoblog and WardsAuto.com

146 Comments to “Episode 654 – Car Sales Slow in May, UPS Tests Lightweight Trucks, End of Chrysler in Europe”

  1. G.A.Branigan Says:

    I would be more then willing to pay a premium for a compact/midsize DIESEL pickup here in the USA.Any of you manufacturers want my money?

  2. motorman Says:

    Most local public TV stations are very liberal oriented and having anything to to with the internal combustion engine is not in their game plan. Good luck trying

  3. tj Martin Says:

    End of Chrysler in the EU;

    Even the dealerships in the EU are unhappy with this decision as John’s article reports . It’d be like Harley Davidsons being sold as Moto Guzzi’s . Who’d believe it and more important , who would want one . When an EU customer wants a Yank Tank they want a Yank Tank that SAYS its a Yank Tank ! Oh well . Just another chapter in Marchionne’s Madness . Or should I be saying Emperor Marchionne .

    Audi A1 Clubsport ;

    Too bad Audi like every other manufacture these days doesn’t have the stones to build this car , even in limited production .

    As to Bob Lutz’s book ? Well I’ve already had a talk with the local PBS about broadcasting ALD , but I’ll buy the book outright anyway

    Get him ( Bob Lutz ) on the show John !

  4. tj Martin Says:

    @ G.A. Branigan

    It seems no one wants either of our money !

    @ Motorman – Most PBS stations air Motorweek . Have for years . So why not Autoline Detroit ? Plus if you hadn’t heard they’re ( PBS stations ) all hurting for $$$ and could use some new blood like ALD .

  5. Chuck Grenci Says:

    I think the lull in auto sales is due to the sag of the economy; some of the those that have had some sense of recovery have bought new vehicles but a lot of Americans are still a little unsure of their futures, and, money availabliity is still tenuous for some.

    Sales in India might be projected to explode, but I disagree to a point; the differences between China and India is physical size and available roads to drive these cars on.

    While not a Mulally fan, per se, I’ve got to agree with his position about mpg; multiple targets (throughtout the country) will just create extra expense and complexity (for neglible differences) in actuality. A similar analogy is the minute differences in European and U.S. diesel emmisions that are effectively blocking diesel sales in the U.S. because of extra technologies needed to meet slightly different standards (that here again don’t add up to actual results).

    And on the fines for holding up traffic; isn’t there thousands and thousands of dollars lost (say in New York City) from diplomats encurring traffic tickets and refusing to pay due to ‘diplomatic immunity’ (or is this just a myth).

  6. pedro fernandez Says:

    Agree there with Chuck re the economy. I’m in the insurance biz and we’ve hit a freaking wall this past couple of weeks, even people who put money down on a policy are asking for a refund, there is a definite malaise in the whole economic picture. Also agree with him re India, I don’t see that market going anywhere, too small a country for so many people, bad roads also. Lancias over Chryslers? what a joke!!

  7. Kit Gerhart Says:

    GM is not likely to sell compact diesel pickups any time soon, because they won’t be selling any compact pickups at all. Canyon/Colorado will be dropped any day now and, to my knowledge, there is no replacement in the works.

    Also, it sounds like Ford will drop the Ranger soon. Compact pickups is the one market segment the U.S.-based companies ever “won back” from the Japanese when S-10 and Ranger hit the market in 1982. Now, they are turning that market back over to the Asians.

  8. HtG Says:

    I bet dollars to dashboards those new car sales are showing up on the used lot. Yesterday, I bumped into a guy that had just sold his 93 Miata through cars.com. He got 5K for his 80 thousand mile, good condition car. That’s crazy talk.

  9. tj Martin Says:

    Looks like we’re all in agreement over the Economy . We may not be in recession , but we’re sure as ( cuss ) not in Recovery either .

    As well as India . Might be a Hot Bed of sales in the short run , but like China there’s only so many there that can Afford to buy a car , so the saturation point is just around the corner .

    CNBC had an interview with some Diplomat from India who was saying the West had its 150 years of Industrial Pollution and now its India’s turn , trying to justify the Stupidity of India attempting to Automotize its population .

    I say India , you’re too late to the Table and your Turn has gone by , so wise up and do the Right Thing rather than a repeat of 150 years of Industrial Mistakes .

  10. tj Martin Says:

    @ Chuck Grenci

    The NYC thing is no myth . The only thing worse is the Taxis parking in the middle of the road to drop off or pick up a fare .

    WA State and Oregon both have fines for intentionally holding up traffic and it works ! Having some Semi pull over on a two lane Mt road to let traffic by is great . So why not everywhere else ?

  11. pedro fernandez Says:

    No one seems to think that there’s a market for a compact truck here, but a lot of sensible guys I speak to, tell me otherwise and used Toyota T100′s are very popular and hard to find around these parts. The images I see of India are of a severely overcrowded place with lots of scooters, not too much room to expand those narrow road to accomodate cars.

  12. tj Martin Says:

    @ pedro

    Tons of Tacomas in KC as well as a plethora of well used Rangers etc. So obviously there’s a market . Just not one the Big Three can see right under their noses !

  13. pedro fernandez Says:

    Tj it makes sense that if you need a work pickup for delivery, pool service, etc You don’t need a big freaking gas guzzler to get the jog done! Funny thing is that years ago, these sold well even when gas was a lot cheaper, so they fact that ALL oem’s decided to make them bigger an thirstier makes no sense to me at all. even Toyota made the Tacoma bigger than their previous full size truck, the T100

  14. len simpson Says:

    dipsomatic immunity is akin to a license to steal, like big corps & their campaign contributions.
    IT has been twisted far from it’s original intent which was to allow them safe conduct when involved nations decide to fight. Another example of political incorrectness

  15. Brett Says:

    Hey, motorman. Some of us “pu**y libruls” are motorheads. Try to avoid stereotypes. It limits your ability to deal with abstract and/or complex concepts, sorta like conservative talk radio does.

  16. SalvadorG. Says:

    With all due respect to people of India, a country with over 1 billion people will either explode in economic reform or be crush in massive poverty, no forgetting the good people of the Pakistani government who seem ready to blow up India to the next era.

    Good Luck! Mulally. (that’s it.)

  17. tj Martin Says:

    All right ! Who or what is len simpson and WTH is he talking about ?????? (#14)

    Dipsomatic ? Sounds like the newest made for TV RONCO product

  18. G.A.Branigan Says:

    India needs to build some infrastructure first,then the cars etc will have a place to go.”Their turn” huh?? Hey ghandi,chill out and have a cheeseburger….on me.

  19. pedro fernandez Says:

    he means diplomatic immunity and how these low-life foreign diplomats use it to get away with speeding, parking in forbidden zones etc, but these are the very few. what really annoys the hell out of me is the assholes with the super loud music, or super noisy exhaust systems that announce them from a couple of blocks away.

  20. tj Martin Says:

    @ pedro

    Oops . OK .

    @ len simpson – My apologies !!!

    @ G.A. Branigan – #18- I agree 1000 percent . But try telling that to India !

  21. Tom L Says:

    Years ago when I was working around trucks.The Isuzu diesel was sought after for small P U trucks. Maybe Chev could put the diesels in there small pickups.

  22. tj Martin Says:

    RONCO Dipsomatic

    It slices . It dices . It gets you off the hook for the most awful of crimes . Bails you out of Jail . Gives you permission to get away with most everything . As well as take severe advantage of your Host Country .

    Only $999.99 plus shipping ( $999,999.99)

    If you’re a Diplomat ;


    ( sorry , couldn’t resist )

  23. Kit Gerhart Says:

    In central Indiana, the electric utility has a bunch of Colorado pickups that are used to read meters. They carry one person and no cargo, ever, as far as I can tell. Why would they not use cars for this? Another good question is why so many large pickups are used where compact pickups would work well, not to mention all the large pickups that are doing the “work” of a small car.

  24. tj Martin Says:

    @ pedro

    #19 Loud music ( boom cars ) and exhausts ( coffee can Honda’s especially )

    We have that gripe in common !

    Seattle had the sense to outlaw it all . KC has the laws on the books , but won’t inforce them .

  25. shan Says:

    Absolutely love the Audi A1 Clubsport, it’s one of the few cars in the last few years that has really impressed me. So, it will not be a production car?

    If GM was smart, they would prioritize making the diesel engine an option for the Colorado/Canyon trucks. It’s possible the trucks would get around 30 mpg and have a nice jump in torque.

  26. pedro fernandez Says:

    Kit: years ago, you may recall, when the Big 3 stopped building large, RWD 2 door coupes and that left a void in the market which forced guys to opt for pickup trucks for personal, not work-related, use and the rest is history

  27. G.A.Branigan Says:

    @ KIT: IF,and that is a big IF,Nissan does in fact go with the 4 cyl Cummins diesel they are testing out for us here in the USA,I will trade in my chebby pickup in a new york minute.

    As to the Canyon?Colorado’s they both have 4cyl base engines so if they are 2 wheel drive the mpg wouldn’t be too bad at all.They are being discontinued because they are $hitboxes.

    Loud booming/thumping music in vehicles is a favorite target of our county law enforcement.Yup,it’s a law they enjoy enforcing.

    @ Shan: GM isn’t going to offer a diesel in this country for the canyon/colorado.They will offer it in the ‘new global’canyon/colorado which ain’t so global since they won’t sell them here.Yeah I know,it is soo dumb on their part.

  28. Chuck Grenci Says:

    Here was the down fall of the small pickup; Dakota came and offered a midsize (and the idiots at Ford and Chevrolet) made bigger small pickups to the point of getting too close to the size of the full sized. What they needed to do was let Dodge go, and keep to the smaller size pickup. And in fact it may not be too late; both Ranger and Colorado are at the end of their life cycles, bring out a new smaller truck, inject it with an economical ’4′ and diesel and break new ground, again, in the small truck segment.

  29. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Yeh, Colorado and Canyon were near worst-in-class, even when new. Only the ancient Ranger is worse, as far as refinement, etc., but Ranger is more reliable.

    Chuck G. #28,
    Great idea, but what do I know about the pickup truck market. I still don’t understand the appeal of using expensive, ill-handling, mediocre riding gas hog pickups as a replacement for small cars.

    I’m sure Pedro is right, though, that a lot of people want a rear-drive, two door, gas hog somethingorother to replace their Cutlass Supremes, but, to me, big pickups don’t seem that similar to said two door cars.

  30. HtG Says:

    Fellow Nerdz, did everyone already know about this series, ‘Great Cars Collection,’ available on Netflix? That’s some secret to be keeping. There is no excuse, tj.

  31. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I try to cut Marchionne some slack, but replacing the Chrysler name with Lancia for the handful of North American cars they sell in Europe makes no sense at all. It would be kind like calling a Corvette and Opel GT in Europe.

  32. pedro fernandez Says:

    Well, Kit since those cars are not available anymore. what other option do these people have unless they go for the expensive German 2 door luxury cruisers (to replace the Eldorados of yesteryear)

  33. pedro fernandez Says:

    When GM went on their crazy FWD conversions they lost forever a lot of loyal customers.

  34. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG – Huh ! ? ! – ( #30 ) I had no clue . I’m not a Netflix subscriber . Only considered doing the trial offer to watch ” Senna ”

    @ Kit Gerhart – I completely understand wanting a P/U over a car . For the same reasons I was considering the FJ .

    Simple & Straight forward
    Tough as Nails
    Easy to repair
    Zero drama to own

    As far as Emperor Marchionne goes , well you can guess what I’d like to ” cut ” him.

  35. tj Martin Says:


    Ironic isn’t it that now everyone is in a rush to come out with RWD ?

  36. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Pedro, what rational reason do these people have for wanting a pickup truck rather than, say, a four door car, or a Mustang if they just “have to have” only two doors? If it’s just that they really want rear drive, there is Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, 300, Charger, and, until recently, Crown Vic and Grand Marquis.

    Actually, a recent Monte Carlo has a lot more in common with an Eldorado than a pickup truck. Both are cars. Both are front drive, and both have two doors, unlike most pickups sold now. You could even get a V-8 in the Monte Carlo. Except for the number of doors, there are a zillion cars more like an Elderado than a pickup.

  37. pedro fernandez Says:

    Tj speaking of old things coming back, went to a Best Buy nearby and noticed a large display of 33 rpm’s with a sign: “Hear what you’ve been missing” all this after CD’s and now digital downloads were rammed up our evacuation systems as being the “best source for music” and putting down vinyl as “crap” when audiophiles all along shunned this technology and held on to their LP’s. I wish for a small, economical RWD whatever rather than the despised FWD now is now all over the place. Will never happen!!!

  38. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I had a pickup once, a 2000 Silverado. I got it mainly to see if it would help me understand why so many co-workers had them. What I found was:

    1) Poor gas mileage compared to a car
    2) Poor handling compared to a car
    3) Poor ride compared to most cars
    4) Good for hauling dirty stuff you don’t mind having stolen, but not so good for clean stuff you don’t want stolen
    5) It was reliable, but so are most of the cars I’ve had. Statistically, pickups are no more reliable than today’s cars, even though the power train is simpler, in not having CV joints

  39. pedro fernandez Says:

    Kit, you know that people who bought Camaros or Mustangs did not buy Cutlass, Monte Carlo or Grand Prix, the latter were more personal, semi-luxury while the former were more for speed and performance than comfort. The fact remains that pickups took over this market niche that was vacated by the demise of the RWD midsize class, BTW the stuff that replaced them was absolute crap.

  40. pedro fernandez Says:

    Another point Kit, F150 keeps being the best selling vehicle in the USA, do you really think everyone who buys one really needs a truck?

  41. HtG Says:

    tj, so if you don’t have Netflix, it follows ineluctably logically that you may not have seen the road movies, 5 Dollars a Day and Due Date. Good Lord. Nor Bottle Shock neither? I need my salts. Facing Ali? :/

  42. tj Martin Says:

    @ pedro

    You may of missed it when I said this to HtG , but Vinyl is the ONLY growing aspect of the Music Retail Industry , with Turntables doing the same. Rapidly !

    These days if you’re any kind of serious musician * ( of any genre ) you release both in CD , Download and Vinyl .

    Personally I’m lovin it ! Then again my camera of choice is a Leica M6 viewfinder w/B&W film so I’m just that kind of guy .

    ” Old Guys ( and stuff ) Rule ”

    ( * no …. Lady Gaga and Beiber the beaver do not qualify )

  43. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG

    bet you never saw “Canyon Racer ” best use of an Outlaw Porsche 356 ever !

  44. tj Martin Says:

    @ pedro

    But you can ! Soon enough ! Buy a RWD small car that is . That Toyota/Subaru sporty ( sort of ) coupe soon to be at a dealer near you !

  45. tj Martin Says:

    @ Kit

    re; # 38

    Yeah but you can beat the ( _____ ) out of a P/U which would kill off any car made today . If thats your thing .

  46. pedro fernandez Says:

    These car movies are PBS-produced documentaries that ran a couple of years ago you may be able to watch them on the PBS website,btw Netflix is only $8 a month and you can watch all you want online, a great bargain indeed. Teh thing with vinyl is that in order to get really good sound you need to have really good equipment while with cd you can get by with mediocre stuff. I believe a good receiver like McIntosh is an investment that loses little value as it gets older.

  47. pedro fernandez Says:

    Tj for my job, I need a good workhorse not a cutesy pie coupe, I have been dying to dump the Vibrolla for a used Tacoma, 4 cyl 2WD truck but the wife objects.

  48. HtG Says:

    Ya got me, tj. No Canyon Racer on Netflix. But I did watch see Harper and Hud. There’s cars in there.

  49. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    Strange how the “Inferior Korean Brands” can get 500+ HP from a 2.0 4 Cylinder (A 10 YEAR OLD ACCENT ENGINE AT THAT), but when Audi does it with a clunky 2.5 5 Cylinder…. it becomes big news?

    BTW, trucks shouldnt be allowed to run on petroleum products. Talk about Government Mandates, that’s what they should be mandating.

  50. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    Strange how the “Inferior Korean Brands” can get 500+ HP from a 2.0 4 Cylinder (A 10 YEAR OLD ACCENT ENGINE AT THAT), but when Audi does it with a clunky 2.5 5 Cylinder…. it becomes big news?

    BTW, trucks shouldnt be allowed to run on petroleum products. Talk about Government Mandates, that’s what they should be mandating.

  51. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG

    Canyon Racer . It was a cult film in the 80′s . Very limited release and it died a well deserved death within months .

    But the car was great ( I love outlaw 356′s ) and the street racing scenes make the ” Fast & the Furious ” over computerized dreck even more obviously fake

  52. tj Martin Says:

    @ HyundaiSmoke

    Back for some more thrashing eh !

    Hmmn . Here’s a clue about # 49

    That Audi is a street legal and usable motor

    That Hyundai ( which Hyundai by the way did not build ) was a one shot only race it and break it motor .

    Big difference .

  53. tj Martin Says:

    @ pedro

    Was just joshing on the car suggestion :o )

    As to Vinyl , well if n yer ever interested I can guide you to a very nice system for a lot less than imaginable .

    Used Audiophile gear ( except collectibles like McIntosh ) goes for pennies on the dollar .

  54. pedro fernandez Says:

    Really TJ? is Ebay a good choice for these??

  55. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    That Motor has been in tons of races, and NEVER BREAKS, tj.

    They could make it street legal if they wanted to, and considering it’s durability it wouldnt be a bad idea to take the New Accent Engine and go for it. In fact it would be almost criminal if Hyundai didnt tease and even test the idea of a $25K +/- Monster Veloster with an engine like that.

    Your Precious Toyota is down 33% for May, wow.

  56. Alex Kovnat Says:

    >Speaking of fuel economy, Ford CEO,
    >Alan Mulally is in Washington D.C.
    >lobbying Congress to adopt one
    >fuel standard for the entire U.S.

    Alan, you are right on!

    Here’s one argument, which to my knowledge nobody other than myself has raised, against allowing states to set their own fuel economy rules:

    If you are going to argue for “states rights” to levy CAFE rules more stringent than the federal government’s, why stop at fuel economy? Why not allow states to lay down other requirements too?

    For example, suppose a bunch of far-out radicals were to take over the state house of, for example, Vermont. Suppose said radicals decided to pass a state law requiring all cars sold in that state to meet minimum domestic content requirements? Or, that cars sold in that state be manufactured in states that don’t have “right to work” laws? Is that the kind of situation we want?

  57. HtG Says:

    with its wheels pushed out to the corners, I can see a high powered Veloster breaking out. Watch for this car.

  58. HtG Says:

    AK, I think Cali gets more say than the average state because its laws chronologically supercede the federal govt’s.

  59. HtG Says:

    I meant to write, ‘its environmental laws….’

  60. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    The lack of product on Japanese lots maybe temporary, but the lack of sales isnt.

    Once people lack Access to those Corollas, and Civics they will go see Forte, Elantra, Cruze, and Focus.

    Once enough of those cars are on the road, people will say Toyota what? Honda who?

    Toyota and Honda are OLD PEOPLE’s Brands except in one country- UNITED STATES.

    This will happen here too.

  61. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    Forte, Elantra, Cruze, and Focus now just needs Thoroughly hot variants.

    Honda and Toyota should be cars for those only looking for cheap basic rudimentary transportation, like the Koreans used to be.

    Compared to Korean and American brands, I already consider the Japanese as Cheap Rudimentary Transportation. In a few years, the sheep will agree.

  62. Jesse Palinkas Says:

    The Impala is not selling because it is a tired older style. Over the past forty years I’ve seen American manufacturers forget on numerous occasions that style sells cars. The Impala creates no passion for most to purchase one. Wake up General Motors! Sure the Aveo, Cruze, Malibu, Camaro, and Corvette look great. Now put some effort in the Impala and Monte Carlo. How about some styling cues from the past?

  63. HtG Says:

    haven’t we been hearing plenty about the shortcomings of Toyota and Honda, already, HS? Real bores.

  64. tj Martin Says:

    @ HyundaiSmoke

    Boy are you ever full of it today little one . That motor ( the 500 hp one ) never saw more than a couple of laps in its entire life without a re-build . Hyundai again DID NO BUILD IT.

    And FYI BMW built a 1200 hp motor based on their K series in line four M/C 1500 cc engine that lasted for an entire F1 race !

    As well as a certain Japanese madman who built a 1400 hp motor for his Pikes Peak racer from …….. hold onto it now …….this is gonna hurt H/S

    A freaking Suzuki 4cylinder 2 liter TRUCK engine !

    Talk to me when Hyundai has some ACTUAL racing results , not the Virtual BS you’re tossing out

  65. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG- #56

    What ? You wanna see Hyundais self destruct even quicker than they already do ?

  66. tj Martin Says:

    @ pedro

    Ebay works but with the list I’ll give you the local garage sales would work even better if you’re willing to take the time

  67. GPL Says:

    Has anyone been able to find Senna on Netflix lately? I’ve searched for it a few times but have never found it.

  68. tj Martin Says:

    @ GPL

    It was there a week or two ago when I did my trial membership thing .

    Yup just checked and its still there !

    search- Senna

  69. HtG Says:

    GPL, the film is listed on the Netflix website, but only to be ‘saved.’ It’s being released right now, this Friday in the UK I believe. We’ll get it in theatres this August. It will likely only get to Netflix after its theatrical run. (I know, I know)

  70. tj Martin Says:

    Till the morrow gentlemen . Time for TJ to cook the misses one of his gourmet Italian delights .

    No HtG , you can not have any nor will I invite you over .

    I’m still feeling slighted by the Pizza episode :o

  71. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG

    Funny in KC the Senna film is listed as available now for viewing .

  72. HtG Says:

    later belli capelli

  73. cwolf Says:

    UPS has always sought innovative ways to lower their costs,so I hope these lighter trucks prove to be a success for them. They certainly are deserving. Over the too many miles each day on the road/pike and years of traveling them,the UPS drivers have always been the most careful and courteous of the lot. What pleases me most about UPS are their trailers; They all are equipt with brush-like curtains that shild the tires. On wet roads,these devises really keep the water spray from obstructing the vission of the person behind and those passing. They should be mandated on all trailers and I’m surprised they are not! I bet all of us had one of these experiences which simulates going through a time warp and praying we’ll reach the other side in one piece.

  74. HtG Says:

    I’ve passed those UPS double trailer rigs on 95 in the middle of the night, and wondered what those brushes were for. Thanks

  75. Chuck Grenci Says:

    @HtG “I’ve passed those UPS double trailer rigs on 95 in the middle of the night, and wondered what those brushes were for. Thanks”

    In a word: mudflaps (and other road debris coming off tires)

  76. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    tj, it has some miles on it my saged one. Not a lot, but it has enough miles on it- without problems. Hyundai has had slick tire problems in the past that I know of that held them back on lap times, but their race engines do not break down.

    Hyundai doesnt do F1, because the cost for the team doesnt meet up to the fan base F1 currently has.

    BTW, that Suzuki was a 2.5L 4 Cyl Twin Turbo with 1000 HP.

    I bet the Koreans could do better with a twin turbo. I think the Yanks can too.

  77. pedro fernandez Says:

    I remember someone who claims to be very smart on this forum correcting me about 2 months ago when I wrote that the new Elantra and Accent looked like the offspring of the Sonata, and said that they looked “nothing” like it. I guess I should have my eyes checked out, BTW I like the look of the Rio better than the Accent, agree with me smoke?

  78. cwolf Says:

    I did not accomplish my objective of aligning a (must have running)crashed machine today,so I’m a tad disappointed. Had to rebuild and change several components first and reluctantly had to have other shifts try to finish these pre-requisits…Grrrr! I think a grandma once said if I had a day like this,do something good for someone and the “Big Guy” who looks over us will make tomorrow better; So here it goes…!

    Smoke, the fellas are ruff on you as usual,so I’m taking your side today. I actually read your comments rather that scrolling past them. Thanks for sharing your views, AND MOST OF ALL, bless you for not posting comments that usually exceed 10,000 words. Bless You…..Bless You…Bless You! NOW GO AWAY!!!!

    Well guys, I’m looking forward to a better day tomorrow.

  79. Dave Says:

    I’m emotional about Chryslers as well — most of them from 2008-2009 make me nauseous! But in fairness they have made huge progress over the last year or so.

  80. Kit Gerhart Says:

    pedro fernandez Says:
    “Another point Kit, F150 keeps being the best selling vehicle in the USA, do you really think everyone who buys one really needs a truck?”

    That’s exactly my point. Probably about 10% of pickup buyers have any reason at all to drive one. Between the cheap gas and “macho mentality” in America, people buy vehicles that make no sense for what they are used for.

  81. HyundaiSmoke Says:

    Pedro, Both have their unique charm.

    Accent is the Mature Older Sister who is a Church girl, while Rio is the More worldly Cocky Younger Brother who carries a Swagger.

    Accent looks like an offspring, but with it’s own unique look.

    The Rio looks 110% ready, the Accents D Pillar throws the car off.

    I think it’s intentional on Hyundai to get Accent Enthusiasts to become Veloster enthusiasts.

    Sssshhh…. A Secret- The Veloster is 4 inches longer than Rio or Accent Hatch (I dont like to mention this because I want people to be focused on Rio and Accent). It’s 6 inches shorter than Accent Sedan. It doesnt look like it, but Veloster is 166 Inches.

    It’s nearly 7 inches longer than Outgoing Accent Hatch, and 7 inches shoter than Tiburon.

    Like I said before the Veloster is a go between of Accent 3 Door and Tiburon.

    John K says even though it’s related to Accent, but it feels more of Elantra.

    Otherwise, I will review the Accent soon, and I’m trying to be open to it. I’m not that enthusiastic, but that doesnt mean others arent.

  82. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The vinyl resurgence is strictly a nostalgia thing. I was a hard core audiophile during the transition from tubes to transistors, and, later, from vinyl to CD. Some of the first CD’s I got didn’t sound as good as vinyl, but within a year or two, that changed. CD’s sounded good, and didn’t have the inevitable pops and clicks you have with vinyl records. I still occasionally use my “classic” turntable, a Thorens TD121 with an SME arm and Ortofon cartridge, but to just sit down and listen to music, I prefer not to have the clicks, even though they are few, as I was always fanatical about taking care of records.

  83. XA351GT Says:

    Chuck@28 correct me if I’m wrong but the Ranger is still the same size it has been (reg cab) since 82 when introduced. It’s the only compact truck that didn’t grow in size over the years. The problem with the Ranger is Ford left it to wither by not updating it. They have pretty much sold the exact same truck for 20 years with the exception of adding the safety and emission gear required by law.

  84. pedro fernandez Says:

    News item from yesterday: feds want OEM’s to stop putting in distracting instrumentation in new cars, does nothing about Iphones and similar other distractions.

  85. XA351GT Says:

    Smoke tell Hyundai to throw a twin turbo in a Genesis and then compare it to a Taurus SHO and we can see who does it better.

  86. Kit Gerhart Says:

    XA351GT, in CR tests, a Genesis V8 matches the Lincoln MKS, expensive clone of Taurus SHO, in acceleration, and beats the Ford in fuel economy. The MKS’ having AWD would hurt its gas mileage a little, but should improve acceleration times slightly.

  87. tj Martin Says:

    @ Kit Gerhart

    # 79

    You’re way off base mate . Its nothing to do with nostalgia . Its all about quality and the lack there of in MP3′s CD’s etc.

    Vinyl has more traction now because many are tiring of the ephemeral nature of Digital Music .

    And Zero’s & One’s cannot still match the nuances of Analogue no matter how many Bytes they put in it .

    Ask any musician . Ask any Audio Engineer .


  88. tj Martin Says:

    @ PEDRO


    a used LEXUS IS300 SportCross

    I love this car . Smaller than the new IS’s . Great handling RWD that I6 is a gem , comfy ( better than a BMW 3 ) sporty enough and enough luxury to keep the Mrs happy .The Wagon back end just big enough for the goodies

    Should of bought one new when I’d test driven one to replace the S4 Avant

    Would buy one now if i tripped across a good used one .

    One of my biggest ” didn’t buy that ” car regrets .

    Look into it .

  89. XA351GT Says:

    Kit , just trying to compare apples with apples here. The V8 Genesis has 385 HP vs the 365 HP in the V6 Taurus is not a straight comparison. We could throw the comparison the other way and say what would it be like if Ford dropped the 5.0 GT Mustang engine in the Taurus then.It always easy for the guy who goes second to beat the the guy who sets the standard 1st.

  90. tj Martin Says:

    @ HyundaiSmoke

    As always you’re completely wrong . The Suzuki ” Monster ” Tashima used at Pikes Peak was a 2 liter and put out 1500 hp at sea level . Forget Wikipedia look at the facts .

    And ahhh hate to tell you but Hyundai has never done any form of racing ( except their foray into US Rally with a car built by Subaru with a Hyundai body stuck on top ) because Hyundai neither has the know how , technology or platform to do so .

    And again little one that 500 hp Hyundai has required so many rebuilds they may as well of just built ten to do the trick

    500 hp . Big deal ! There;s at least ten Honda tuners in my city that crank that much out of 1.8 liter honda motors . Not to mention the guy up the road that gets 500 hp out of his Harley V twin !

  91. tj Martin Says:

    @ XA351GT

    Fact is any comparable Peformance Ford would wipe the pavement with its counterpart from Hyundai .

    Not to mention last a whole lot longer .

    Oh but wait ! Hyundai/KIA doesn’t make any performance cars !

    Wonder why that is ?

    Cause the can’t ! They’ve proven that in every racing endeavour they’ve attempted .

  92. Kit Gerhart Says:

    tj says:
    “You’re way off base mate . Its nothing to do with nostalgia . Its all about quality and the lack there of in MP3’s CD’s etc.”

    When CD’s came onto the market in the mid-70′s and players became reasonably priced, the first CD’s I bought were of albums I had on vinyl. One of the first CD’s I bought was a Gordon Lightfoot album with a lot of acoustic guitar. That, and a few of my other early CD’s sounded “harsh” compared to the vinyl records when played on the Jantzen electrostatic speakers and Stax headphones I had at the time. Before long, re-issuing on CD of music mastered on analog tape improved. I re-bought some of the same CD’s a couple years later, and they sounded as good as the vinyl, only without the occasional pop or click. As I mentioned earlier, I had, and still have, very good record playing equipment. Also, I have very good speakers, from a “clean sound” standpoint, Acoustat ES panels, and a Velodyne sub for base. I’m old enough that my hearing is not what it used to be, but I recently had a younger “audio nut” listen to some CD and vinyl back to back, and he considered the CD sound to be as good. As I said, the vinyl thing is all about nostalgia. The same is the case with tube amps. The very best of the tube amps sound about the same as a not-terribly-expensive solid state amp like the Denon I use. Most of the tube amps sound worse.

    As far as MP3′s, that is entirely different. Any MP3 file, and the output of ipods, etc., does not sound as good as CD’s, or vinyl played on good equipment.

  93. pedro fernandez Says:

    I saw a very useful graph online that shows without a doubt that analogue recordings “show” more details in music than digital, in particular the downloadable ones.

  94. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Ford touts their “ecoboost” turbo V6 as providing V8 power with V6 gas mileage. In reality, it uses extra complexity to make similar power to a mid-size V8, but uses as much gas as the V8. I fail to see the point.

  95. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I had a SportCross (bought used) for about a year. It handled well, was stone reliable, and the inline six was smooth and sounded nice. The car was kind of thirsty for its size, though, and only got about 26 mpg (on premium) on the interstate. Still, it’s a very nice car.

  96. tj Martin Says:

    @ Kit Gerhart

    Audio engineers and musicians will tell you you’re wrong as well as the Audiophile press that isn’t sucking up to the manufactures pushing Digital because surprise surprise its cheaper to manufacture .

    A reminder I do this ( music ) for a living . Both performance and engineering as well as occasional design ( several name bands have studios I’ve designed for them )

    FYI , My rig

    YBA Integrated Amp
    YBA CD Player
    MMF-5 Turntable
    CREEK Phono Pre amp
    Goldring mc cartridge
    Triangle Heliade Speakers

    Fact is when it comes to B&W photography and recorded music Analogue has more depth and breadth than Digitals Ones and Zeros can accomplish . And thats a Scientific Fact not an Audiophile nerds wishful thinking .

  97. pedro fernandez Says:

    Yeah I wanna see when all these great ecoboost engines start having problems and most techs won’t be qualified to fix them and you then have to pay dealer’s fees to get them fixed, not to mention the drop in resale price of these cars I recall the great GM 4/6/8 and 350 diesel engines that made those cars that had them become worthless after a few years.

  98. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I think the thing people are missing on this audio thing is that digital media is not created equal, or even close. Purchased CD’s have great quality. Purchased CD’s copied to itunes on a computer and then to an ipod lose noticably in quality by the time the signal exits the ipod. You can’t tell the difference when played through most car systems, but you can tell the difference when played on a good home system. Downloaded MP3 files are much worse quality than purchased CD’s, or vinyl played on good equipment.

  99. tj Martin Says:

    @ Kit Gerhart

    eeesh ! Tube amps sound worse ???

    What have you been listening to ?

    Granted tube amps have the disadvantage of being somewhat inconsistent from day to day , especially if not warmed up correctly but good God man . When they work they blow transistors to hell and back again sound wise .

    I have a 60 year old Tube amp the old man built ( he was one of the first audiphiles in the US ) that’ll blow 90% of the transistor amps away with all of ten watts per channel !

    The only reason I use the solid sate rig is consistency and the lack of heat it produces . But when it comes to mastering , passing critical engineering judgement on some ones project
    etc i break out the Antique .

  100. tj Martin Says:

    @ Kit Gerhart

    Back to cars . Phew !

    Turbos . Yes they’re overly complex but driven correctly ( underneath the boost ) around town you can ( but most won’t ) get much better mpg than the equivalent V8

    Sound Quality

    # 1 Vinyl – by a long shot
    # 2 Analogue tape ( first generation )
    # 3 High quality CD’s ( though no where’s near the subtleties of vinyl )
    # 4 Mass produced CD’s ( a full step down )

    and below that any of the MP3′s iTunes iPods Computer downloads etc, Dreck at best . Convenient maybe . But dreck

  101. pedro fernandez Says:

    Honestly, I got a set of good cans,took out my 1970′s Marantz receiver, got a new cartridge and stylus for my Technics table, washed my old vinyls and I just love them.

  102. Kit Gerhart Says:

    tj, you have some really cool audio equipment, much newer than my more “vintage” stuff. You’re not going to convince me that CD’s sound bad, but we can just disagree on that.

  103. tj Martin Says:

    @ Kit Gerhart

    Google Walter Sears ( one of the very best audio engineers that ever lived as well as designing a studio , Sears Sound thats still in demand by everyone from Classical ( John Adams recorded his new CD there ) to Rock ( Wilco etc. ) in spite of being well over a 40 year ld design .

    Read his articles on sound , analogue vs digital etc. He can say it better than i could ever hope to . And people are still listening in spite of his passing

  104. tj Martin Says:

    @ Kit

    Didn’t say CD’s sound bad . Just that Vinyl and Analogue sounds better .

  105. tj Martin Says:

    @ pedro

    Thats a good solid rig . Add some nice speakers ( I’d recommend used Spica TC50′s [ classical & jazz] or Klipsch Heresys [ rock and what ever ] depending on the music you most listen to ) as well as some better than Radio Shack but not super expensive speaker cables and interconnects and you’ll be cooking brother !

  106. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The last tube amp I listened to was a Harmon Kardon Citation, with the preamp normally sold with it. It was driving AR3 speakers, which I always liked. It sounded great, but so do the same speakers powered by a decent solid state amp. I’d like to hear my Acoustats with the Citation amp/preamp, but my speakers are in Florida and the amp in question is in Indiana.

  107. Kit Gerhart Says:

    What do you think of “old” solid state amps, like the one in a Heathkit AR1500, compared to newer ones?

  108. tj Martin Says:

    Boy did we ever hijack the site this morning what with all the music discussion .

    Beats the ( cuss ) out of an H/S or Cybil 4tet confrontation any day though . Wouldn’t you agree ?

    One last Musical Question though as one is right out side my door at this moment

    WTF do people put Stereos on their blessed Motor Cycles ?

    Seems to me that defeats the whole point ( being in the moment ) of riding an M/C . And they are always ( M/C stereos ) loud and playing crappy music !

  109. tj Martin Says:

    @ Kit

    Depends on which ” new ones ” you’re talking about .

  110. tj Martin Says:

    @ Kit

    Harmon Kardon was never known for their Tube amps . It was always their solid state that got the reviews . AR3′s !!!

    Another recommendation for @pedro used . Great speaks !

  111. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The “new” amps I have are a Denon 100w/side of which I don’t know the model number, and an NAD 3150. Neither is that new, though. I got the Denon in the early 90′s, and the NAD before that.

  112. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I agree with you tj, about stereos on motorcycles. I don’t even play music in cars very often. I like to listen to music where it is quiet, and where I don’t have anything else to concentrate on, like driving a car.

  113. tj Martin Says:

    @ pedro – Those AR3′s Kit mentioned and I recommended . They are starting to become the dreaded ” Collectors Items ” so can be kind of pricey these days .

    But if you ever see a pair at a Garage Sale that work , grab them .

    Still a great speaker

    @ Kit – Denon “was ” known for good quality solid state at a reasonable price ( I think your vintage qualifies ) as well as NAD so I’d think , not having them side by side to compare with the Heathkit your “new “ones would sound better

    Plus with the Heathkit you never know how good the guy that built it was unless you did it yourself .

  114. Kit Gerhart Says:

    I built the Heathkit myself, and did it carefully. The amp still works fine, but the tuner has a problem. I haven’t had nearly enough ambition to try to fix it.

  115. tj Martin Says:

    @ Kit

    When on my bicycle or M/C I want to hear what’s surrounding me like cars coming up , birds singing , etc . The thought of having a stereo or iPod on when riding just seems counterintuitive to my thinking .

    When in the car though I usually have something playing at a reasonable volume ( so to again hear what’s going on that I may not be seeing ) Especially on the Interstate .

    90% of the time instrumental . Classical or Jazz ( I’m an ECM fanatic )

  116. tj Martin Says:

    @ Kit

    So how does it sound t your ears ?

  117. tj Martin Says:

    @ Kit

    When the Old Man gave me his “Kit ” tube amp from the 60′s it had a fair amount of Snap Crackle Pop going on , but I took it to the local ” Tube Guru ” ( almost every major metropolitan area has one to service guitar players ) and GEEZE did it ever sound good once he was done cleaning and tweaking the thing .

    An Audiophile friend and i took it over to his house to compare that measly ten watt antique against his $20K beasts ( watch an old ” House ” episode ” to see the amp/pre-amp in question )

    Even he agreed that antique sounded as good if not on some styles of music better than his exotic little rig .

    Thats another advantage of Tube over Solid State . Infinitely repairable and capable of being modified .

  118. Kit Gerhart Says:

    With MK “satellite” speakers used with a powered sub, the Heathkit sounds the same to me as the NAD. I haven’t tried it with the Acoustats, which would be a better test.

    I’d like to buy my friend’s AR3′s to use at my Indiana place where I spend summers, but he doesn’t want to sell them.

  119. HtG Says:

    Ahem. Am I wrong, or isn’t a digital image of sound a very different thing than an analog impression? To my ears, an analog recording has much more information and feel than a digital. I don’t mind hisses and pops. Why would new vinyl made from digital master be so hot? Isn’t it the original analog master that is so sweet?(note to tj, a relative who is a pro musician, years ago didn’t have much clue about the way digital images are made. He gets his music live, so he don’t care much anyway.)

  120. pedro fernandez Says:

    Agree with Kit re music in noisy cars, unless you’re driving a tomb-quiet, luxury car I cannot appreciate music in my ultra-noisy Vibrolla, so even after I blew a few hundreds on an after market unit, I regret not using that money to get something else, I see these riders in their noisy Harleys with the freaking music on, what is the point there?

  121. HtG Says:

    isn’t it to get attention by being loud, Pedro? I’m just at a loss about drivers that want their car to be a motorized living room; except of course that driving is mostly boring boring.

  122. pedro fernandez Says:

    I suppose so, they also want to show off their poor taste in music (noise) by blasting that crappy, cursing hip hop electronic annoyance that is so prevalent among the youth (and not so youth)

  123. HtG Says:

    what’s that, like 25 years that hiphop has been on top? Isn’t it ‘your father’s’ music already?

  124. pedro fernandez Says:

    it may be 25 or 35 but I still don’t consider it real music. I guess I am just an old fart.

  125. HtG Says:

    You think so, Pedro? On Saturday afternoon drives you will find me tuning in to the Velvet Fog et al. Autotuned hiphop, now that is nasty.

  126. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG

    Phew ! back from the morning jog ( Nordic Walking actually )

    Getting hot out and already muggy ! Bleah . Get me back to Colorado mountains ! Now !!!!

    #116 Thats the point I’ve been making with Kit . There’s a whole lot of missing information in between those Digital Zero’s and One’s that analogue grabs without effort .

    As well as ( insider secrete ) part of the ” sound ” of Rock and Blues ( not that synthetic crap ) is attained by ” Saturating ” the tape ( almost to distortion ) which you can not do with Digital .

    I get my music ” Live ” as well but being a pro entails ( to me ) knowing what’s the haps in the studio as well as on the stage .

  127. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG

    Pitch corrected ANYTHING ! Now that is really nasty !

    For me I’m a some what seasonal listener on the road . Brazilian this time of year . Nordic Jazz and Part in winter . Bill Frisell Pat Metheny John Adams etc Fall & Spring .

    With a fair smattering of the classics and some Wilco RadioHead etc . Oh and the new Robert Plant stuff anytime !

  128. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG

    Tony Bennet . Now he’s the guy !!! Mel ? Pretty darn good . I likes a bit of ” Fog ” now and again . But Benedetto ? He’s the man . Both to listen to and work for !

  129. HtG Says:

    I will concede that even on analog, in the studio it is/was a practice to stitch together different takes, even in the classical world. I heard a story about one recording being described as very energetic, when in fact it was a cobbling together of short bursts in the studio.

    On live music, it’s also true that instruments like violins make bit of non intended noise. Get close enough to violin and you hear it breathing

  130. HtG Says:

    One wonders if listeners today miss the bending of notes that you heard before. Maybe that’s why I find today’s pop so empty.

  131. tj Martin Says:

    The thing that kills me is the Idiots with the Boom Car Stereos so loud the body panels on their car vibrate more than their speakers do , with the windows rolled down on + 95 or – 5 degree days to make sure everyone within a 2 mile radius can hear their pathetic garbage !

  132. HtG Says:

    any opinion on Dr Dre 2000, or Marshall Mathers by Eminem. I don’t like the genre, but those are interesting.

  133. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG

    The problem with todays Pop music is its so over processed to the point of no longer being real .

    Classical . A friends dad mastered all of Wynton Matrsellis classical albums . He’s told us everyone had at least 100 to 300 cut & pastes to make what you’re hearing on the CD/Album

    Thats the problem with most modern Classical and Jazz . Everyone has become so attuned to the ” Perfect Take ” that never really existed that when they go hear ” Live ” music they are disappointed .

  134. tj Martin Says:

    @ HtG

    The only one in that vein I can even stand is Kid Rock to be honest . All the rest leaves me cold . Not that i like Kid Rock mind you . But at least I can tolerate his stuff

  135. HtG Says:

    Story tj, I hear from the relation, that even in the concert hall, only handful of audience members can tell if the performance was any good. Hence the joke about ending ‘loud and fast.’ Like audiophiles are rare, how many listeners do you think have a clue?

  136. HtG Says:

    Story tj, I hear from the relation, that even in the concert hall, only handful of audience members can tell if the performance was any good. Hence the joke about ending ‘loud and fast’ Like audiophiles are rare, how many listeners do you think have a clue?

  137. tj Martin Says:

    pew ! shower time !

  138. HtG Says:

    Winton Marsalis. 4 degrees right there tj

  139. tj Martin Says:


    One more .


    Lots more than you may realize especially when it comes to classical . Lots of Classical Nerds in the audience if you get my drift that will complain about anything .

    If you spend a little time at an after concert reception you’ll cringe at the conversations that go on ! Frasier and Niles Crane were based on some what exaggerated reality .

  140. HtG Says:

    ever hear of a performer going to the praising critic, and suggesting the playing was actually quite shite?

  141. HtG Says:

    want to hear a story about Gorby, tj?

  142. tj Martin Says:



    Now there’s a guy I do not like . One of the current wave of Jazz Nazi’s thats killing creative Jazz in the US ,as well as a major proponent of Revisionist Jazz History . The epitome of reverse prejudice .

    Read the book sometime ;

    ” Is Jazz Dead ? ” ‘ or has it found a new address ‘

    Brilliant book . Tells it straight albeit a bit exaggerated

  143. HtG Says:

    I hear he’s a genius. So there

  144. tj Martin Says:

    HtG sure i can put up with my stench for another minute or two

  145. tj Martin Says:


    # 137

    Yes I’ve done it on many occasions about my own performances .

  146. HtG Says:

    After a concert in an embassy in Germany, Gorby went up to the accompaniest pianist to praise the work. G talked about all kinds of images and ideas, on and on. The pianist, who was a Russian speaker related to the violinist that it was such f#cked up shit he was talking, that it was all he could do not to burst out laughing.