Episode 279 – Saab On Its Deathbed, China Sales To Soar, Most Drivers Ignore Recalls
November 25th, 2009 at 12:00pm
Runtime 7:11
Swedish luxury automaker Koenigsegg announced that it was pulling out of its deal to buy Saab. Auto sales in China are expected to grow by 1 million units per year for the next 10 years. Why most consumers will ignore Toyota’s latest recall. All that and more, plus German Chancellor Angela Merkel waits for her thank-you letter from General Motors.
Transcript and Story Links after the jump . . .
Here are today’s top headlines. Saab is on its deathbed. Sales will soar in China for years to come. And why most consumers will ignore Toyota’s latest recall.
Up next, we’ll be back with the news behind the headlines.
This is Autoline Daily for Wednesday, November 25, 2009, and now, an important message. Before we dive into the news, do me a favor … vote for us in the Podcast Awards. Like the old saying goes from the shady side of Chicago politics, Vote early and often. Go to PodcastAwards.com, scroll down to the Business category and vote for Autoline Daily. Now to the news.
Let us pause here for a very somber announcement. Saab may be on its deathbed. Yesterday Koenigsegg announced that it was pulling out of the deal to buy Saab. The AP reports that as negotiations went on, it finally dawned on Koenigsegg that it was not going to be able to make money on Saab. Chinese automaker BAIC, a minority investor in the deal, said it might reconsider bidding on its own again. But GM rejected the Chinese automaker’s bid a few months back. I think what everyone is realizing is that the Saab brand is going nowhere, and has been on life support ever since GM bought it. Last year Saab sold 93,000 cars worldwide, which is the equivalent of one-half of one assembly plant. And no car company, unless its selling very high-priced cars, can survive on such small volume.
More bad news for Toyota. The company is recalling around 110,000 Tundra pickups because the rear crossmember can rust away, causing the spare tire to fall off, leading to a potential road hazard. Excessive corrosion can even affect the rear brakes, leading to a loss of stopping power. As we reported, Toyota is recalling 3.8-million vehicles to shorten the gas pedal. But if this is like most safety recalls, most owners will simply ignore it. That’s the dirty little secret of safety recalls. If the car is working, most people figure they don’t have the time to go to the dealership.
And this next story does not directly involve Toyota but it is related. GM is suing Japanese supplier JTEKT for defective steering columns used on the Chevy Cobalt and other small vehicles. Customers complain about excessive noise and vibration when driving over certain road surfaces, which has been traced to excessive gear backlash in the assembly. JTEKT is a new company formed from Toyota subsidiaries.
Fitch Ratings says automotive suppliers will see a slight recovery next year. According to the AP, higher production and growth in emerging markets like China, Russia and Brazil will help suppliers. But Fitch warns that the weak economy and lower sales in Europe will stunt any recovery there.
And because a number of suppliers are in a weak position, French supplier Faurecia says it will look to buy out some of its rivals. According to Bloomberg, the company says the industry needs to consolidate and it would like to do so in order to cut costs and expand its customer base. The company which is an affiliate of Peugeot doesn’t plan to expand beyond its four, core businesses, which are car seats, exhaust systems, and interior and exterior parts.
After the break. Car sales are expected to skyrocket in China for years to come. And one Chinese automaker is going gangbusters with a brand of its own.
In China, Gasgoo.com reports that auto sales in the country are expected to grow by a staggering 1 million units per year for the next 10 years! The forecasted buying frenzy is spurred-on by low car ownership and economic prosperity. Sales in 2009 are expected to hit 13 million units – nearly a 40-percent increase over last year. Interestingly, more than 60 percent of Chinese consumers are first-time car buyers and more than 90 percent of them pay with cash.
SAIC, China’s biggest automaker, aims to sell around 90,000 of its own-branded vehicles this year, which is nearly twice as many as it initially thought. Gasgoo reports that the company expects that number to double again in 2010. One of SAIC’s most popular models is the Roewe, a sedan developed from technology acquired from defunct British marque MG. Sales of Roewe- and MG-branded vehicles are up 267 percent. By the way, including its partners, SAIC will make 2.6 million vehicles this year, meaning its turning into a significant car company.
OK, we couldn’t do a news report without something from Opel, could we? The latest there according to the AFP, is GM is now saying it will not close one Opel plant in Germany.
Perhaps that decision is in response to the next story. According to the AFP, German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, says she’s waiting for her thank-you letter from GM for helping keep Opel alive. GM paid back every euro the German government loaned it, and Merkel notes it didn’t cost the taxpayer anything and also said Opel wouldn’t be alive today without the loan.
Ok, since we won’t be here Friday, due to the holiday, we’re going to announce the winner of this week’s trivia quiz. We asked you to name the make and model of this car. And the correct answer is, it’s the Kaiser Darrin. As always we randomly selected this week’s winner from the pool of correct responses. And the winner is, Chuck Grenci of Mount Pleasant, South Carolina. Congratulations Chuck, you’ve just won this collector’s-edition Autoline Detroit coffee mug.
And that’s it for today’s top news in the global automotive industry. And remember what I said at the top of the show, go to PodcastAwards.com and vote for Autoline Daily. Vote early and often, have a happy Thanksgiving, and we’ll see you next week.
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Comments (125)
November 25th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Toyota Tundra rear crossmembers rusting away? Wow. Whoever thought this would happen to Toyota, given their (usually justified) reputation for quality.
I can’t help but wonder, if this might have something to do with the way automakers are being squeezed harder and harder on fuel economy. If you thin down steel sections to reduce weight to meet overall weight goals layed down by upper-level management, you can’t afford to lose even a thousanth of an inch to corrosion.
I’ve been concerned for a long time that going to thinnner steel to save weight, might lead to that kind of problem.
November 25th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Saab’s demise is sad, but with the absolute overcapacity in the marketplace, was probably inevitable. Only by merging into a Opel/Saab conglomerate would it survive I think at this point, but with GM saying all its German plants will remain open, this would mean the very efficient Swedish plant would be redundant.
Too bad GM and Ford could not have worked together to bundle Volvo and Saab and sell to the same buyer.
I never owned a Saab, nor really considered one, so I suppose I am in the majority in saying it won’t really be missed in the US market anyway.
November 25th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Predictions on Volvo ???
November 25th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Well, while Chinese people buy more and more new cars, Americans are having to do with more and more used ones. Congrats to all those economists from the 70′s who said we’d be better off being a service society instead of a manufacturing one. You must be jumping for joy with every day’s news. And SAAB, we’ll miss your weird keyhole position.
November 25th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
John,
Does Subaru’s parent company FHI(Fuji Heavy Industries) have a strong present’s in Sweden, or the European Union (EU)? I would imagine that Subaru would be interested in acquiring SAAB for pennies on the Euro from GM if it saves manufacturing jobs in Sweden and increases Subaru’s European Market Penetration. These two Brands have similar messages (Sporty, All-Weather and Individualist in Style) with the SAAB brand being a bit more upscale than Subaru. Subaru / Saab has a nice ring to it. Subaru sales seem unharmed by the economic downturn, which leds me to believe they are strong enough with the Swedish Government and /or EU to acquire and turn Saab profitable. What do you think?
November 25th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
“Tony Gray Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Saab’s demise is sad, but with the absolute overcapacity in the marketplace, was probably inevitable.”
Sure, it is Survival of the Fittest. Saab once made distinctive cars, but under GM’s dismal management, and even before that, they started sharing platforms with all kinds of clowns, Opel, Lancia etc, so Saabsd were not unique any more and one could buy a clone for many $1000s less. Not that their uniqueness alone was enough to survive today’s tough markets.
Re Volvo, if the chinese don’t buy it, it will die as well. Another example of a brand that was grossly mismanaged by Ford, lost its strong Safety identity in favor of chick-curvy attempts to look like any other car, and developed horrific reliability problems (far worse than those of the German luxury cars)
November 25th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Pedro: Going to a service economy had little to do with China’s rise as an Auto power, which is just inevitable no matter what the US does.
Like it or not, China will become, sooner than later, a huge, healthy economy with consumers demanding cars and having the $ to buy them. BUT to compare China to the US is like comparing the US to the UK! THe population ratio is 4:1 in both cases, so in the lomng run you expect to have four times as many cars in CHina as in the US, the same way there are four times as many cars in the US than in the UK! And this does NOT mean that there is anything wrong with the much smaller nation having much fewer cars than the much bigger nation!!!!!
The US is saturated with cars, we have 250,000,000 of them on the road, more than one per adult that has a driver’s lisence!! China barely has 80 cars per 1,000 people.
Nobody should be surprised bu any of this, NOR does it prove that the US is doing anything wrong. And in the future, when we eventually develop decent mass transit, we may even have fewer than the 250,000,000 cars, or even drive them fewer miles, both of which, given our current congestion and pollution, are mighty fine with me!!!!
November 25th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Happy Thanksgiving to you John and your staff!
November 25th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Nick: China’s middle class has increased as ours has decreased. all those items we used to build here are now built over there. I dare you to find anything that says made in USA anymore, this is what leads to unemployment and economic hardship. WE don’t build anything here anymore, except military and certain heavy equipment. Soon we won’t even build cars here anymore. Look how few brands we have. Whatever happened to RCA Zenith Magnavox, etc they’re now all Asian brands built in China, even Japanese and Korean brands are all built in China, we are losing our manufacturing at an alarming rate. Just look at some of those cities in the North, they look like post-apocalyptic wastelands.
November 25th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Nick,I would have to argue that since going to a service oriented society as opposed a manufacturing based society we send our money overseas(mostly china for everyday domestic goods)as well as auto parts etc,we have seriously eroded our whole economic base.Ibelieve that was Pedro’s point.
PS: Happy Thanksgiving to all ;}>
November 25th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Have a Happy Thanksgiving JohnMc. and to everyone in Autoline Detroit/Daily/afterhours, etc, etc.
1- I’m actually very surprise to hear of defects on the Toyota Tundra, out of all things make by Toyota the trucks seem pretty much the most reliable and that’s mostly because their built here.
Something seems to be going on with Japanese Automakers mainly Honda and Toyota… On the one hand Honda keeps making ugly looking cars and the other Toyota’s loosing is so fame reliability, maybe we can blame this on swine-flu or something.
2- (maybe I shouldn’t say this but) SOME BALLS of Angela Merkel, after she called the president of this U.S.A. and asking him to do something about GM’s refusal to sell Opel to Magna; she wants a thank you- We need to send ol’ George W. to Germany and give her a rub again as a thank you.
3- Finally, I wonder how much exactly a new car cost in China?, considering that the Chinese goverment tends to leave most of its population in poverty and the value of its currency it’s also in the toilet, in dollars; I wonder how much does a new car cost in China (keep in mind I am not talking about a GOOD QUALITY RELIABLE car)
-
November 25th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
“3- Finally, I wonder how much exactly a new car cost in China?, ”
Salvador, Ulike India, where they sell cheap Pieces of junk as cheap as the $2,000 Nano and average $5,000 or so, China’s cars are just as expensive as in the US.
The country has a HUGE population, more than half can be dirt-poor, even 3/4ths can, but the remaining 300,000,000 have a ton of $ saved and can afford to buy them, and with cash too.
“considering that the Chinese goverment tends to leave most of its population in poverty and the value of its currency it’s also in the toilet, in dollars;”
What are you talking about? The Yuan, UNLIKE the falling dollarm is extremnely strong and rising the last few years from 8 yuan to the $ to 6.50 or so today. It is so strong, that even at 3 yuan to the $ things will still look cheap to us in China.
-
November 25th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
“# G.A.Branigan Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Nick,I would have to argue that since going to a service oriented society as opposed a manufacturing based society we send our money overseas(mostly china for everyday domestic goods)”
I think it is a GREAT Deal that China and the others are willing to accept our falling, worthless dollars (who would buy only 3 cents worth of goods back in 1915)as well as auto parts etc,we have seriously eroded our whole economic base.Ibelieve that was Pedro’s point.
PS: Happy Thanksgiving to all ;}>
November 25th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
I second that feeling, GA, happy thanksgiving one and all and Salvador, when all you could have was a bicycle all your life and finally get to buy a car, quality or performance is the last thing on your mind. Also I.m sure the average Chinese just gets a base model w/o all the bells and whistles, but still it’s better than a bicycle.
November 25th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Sorry, my reply was posted unfinished above. I complete it below.
I think it is a GREAT Deal that China and the others are willing to accept our falling, worthless dollars (who would buy only 3 cents worth of goods back in 1915) in exchange for all kinds of valuable products. You should start to worry when they REFUSE to accept the falling dollar.
“as well as auto parts etc,we have seriously eroded our whole economic base.Ibelieve that was Pedro’s point.”
I am sure it was, but I strongly disagree with it. First of, we still have a ton of high-paying jobs, and they are in far superior industries than old-fashioned manufacturing that any developing nation can and should do. Not all US jobs are service jobs, and many service jobs are NOT McDonalds servers or Walmart greeters. The clueless gloom and doom media have done a disservice and misinformed the US people that this is the case.
It has always been like that, every product has a cycle, we invent it here, we make it when nobody else has the skills to make it and make a ton of $ from it, then eventually others catch up, or the patent expires, they can copy it, and that’s fine.
And Happy Thanksgiving to all too.
November 25th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Pedro wrote: “Also I.m sure the average Chinese just gets a base model w/o all the bells and whistles, but still it’s better than a bicycle.”
Those who buy cars are NOT the average chinese but successful businesmen, bankers or small business owners. What you say above is true of INDIA but not of china. I have been in china for more than a month and not as a tourist but as a valued educator in their second-best university (in Shanghai) and had a chance to look around a lot and talk to a lot of people. You see a ton of top end luxury cars there, Big BMWs, a ton of black shiny buicks, and even lexus LS flagships, not your average corolla!
November 25th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Alex Kovnat Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
“I can’t help but wonder, if this might have something to do with the way automakers are being squeezed harder and harder on fuel economy.”
It has a lot more to do with Toyota’s not galvanizing, or properly priming and painting the parts in question. A couple years ago I saw the underside of a ~5 year old Toyota Tacoma that looked perfect from the top, and I was amazed by the amount of rusty steel I saw, including the entire frame and some other parts. I guess Toyota saves the money it takes to build reliable power trains by not rust proofing the part that doesn’t show.
November 25th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
And another difference between India and CHina is that India produces a lot of cars but exports most of them, while China both produces and consumes and imports cars, and, more importantly, despite having similar populations, the CHinese Economy is far, far greater and more healthy growing than the Indian Economy, who may never make it, judging from its very poor past record, and the number of new cars sold in China this year has, for the first time, EXCEEDED the number in the US!!
In the future, assuming BOTH nations are doing well and the US has its usual 17 million cars a year new sales (when our population will be 400,000,000!), China, even with its current $1.3 billion, let alone if it grows to 1.5 billion, will have the greatest market in the world, and 50 million, if not 70, new cars and trucks a year!!!
Western Car making nations should take advantage of this huge opportunity instead of clisoing their eyes to the Chinese Opportunity.
FOrtunately GM has been doing the right thing for many years now, SAIC is HUGE in China and makes a ton of profdits for GM every year, that it desperately needs.
November 25th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
I had a mid-70′s Saab 99 for a while, and for its time, it was a very advanced car. It had fuel injection, front drive, uncommon at the time, and a very space-efficient for the time hatchback body. In 2006 I shopped the Saab 9-3 before buying a Malibu Maxx, and what I found was that it would have cost about $10K extra for the Saab name, and a turbo 4 instead of a normally aspirated V-6. Both the Saab and the Chevy were built on the same platform. The Saab didn’t look like a good buy to me.
November 25th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Toyota truck frames rusting in states that have salt after 6 to 8 years…no kidding. What about all early S-10 and other vehicles you can watch rusting in the show room..
I give Toyota credit for doing something, to help people who should have undercoated the thing in the first place
November 25th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Nick I think the lowly factory worker can not hope to buy a luxury car over there. The business owners and professionals can indeed buy luxury, but I was referring to the average Joe over there, now having more $ to spend and leaving the pedal power behind.
November 25th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
SAAB, built from jets. They kept the same ad BS even when their cars were GM platforms.
November 25th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
@Kit Gerhart and the group here on Autoline Daily:
If Toyota refuses to properly corrosion-proof the undersides of their pickup trucks but Ford, Chevrolet and Dodge are willing to do so, we should all hope that those who form the market for pickup trucks will catch on and shun T. in favor of American brand trucks.
November 25th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
dave Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
“Toyota truck frames rusting in states that have salt after 6 to 8 years…no kidding. What about all early S-10 and other vehicles you can watch rusting in the show room..”
Early S-10′s were made in 1982, not 2004.
November 25th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Alex Kovnat Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
“If Toyota refuses to properly corrosion-proof the undersides of their pickup trucks but Ford, Chevrolet and Dodge are willing to do so, we should all hope that those who form the market for pickup trucks will catch on and shun T. in favor of American brand trucks.”
Those who form the market for pickup trucks are buying American brand pickups, at least the large ones. That said, I suspect now that the word is getting out, Toyota will probably start doing a better job or rust proofing the parts of their trucks that don’t show.
November 25th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Lest you all forgot, Toyotas were big rust buckets when they started out, I guess they’re just going back to their roots.
November 25th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Nick Stevens Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
“3- Finally, I wonder how much exactly a new car cost in China?, ”
Salvador, Ulike India, where they sell cheap Pieces of junk as cheap as the $2,000 Nano and average $5,000 or so, China’s cars are just as expensive as in the US.
-Hey, where you get off; I don’t need international lessons on China. I did a valid question, HOW MUCH DOES Exactly A NEW CAR COST in CHINA???
First of all for a country that intentionally drives the value of its currency down and mass produce like no other country, plus extremely low worker wages, plus a still growing population (considering the one child policy)
I don’t care what people in Shanghai or Beijing are driving or the fact that 300 out of 1.2 plus Billion people are consider middle class or that some are buying BMW or Audis or Porsches.
Pedro, your right, your first car its probably not the top of the line, in fact a lot of people here in America probably buy an used car, but I’m not talking about what people in America do; I’m talking about new chinese SAIC/ or any other car/ new buyers that pay in cash, which is what the report mention today.
-next I’m gonna be hearing that China has 4,700 plus year of history.
November 25th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
The rusting frame problem for the toyota tundra has been happening for a while now,just didn’t seem to get much press.I’m on about 4 different 4×4 forums and it was well known in our world.I don’t know (or care) what the sales figures are,but from what I have been told by the former owners,they will stay with american 4×4 pickups for now on.In fact many of those former tundra owners are discovering the Jeep wranglers….and loving them too.Now we are all waiting to see if fiat brings in a slightly redesigned Iveco Massif rebadged as a Jeep whatever pickup.Next year we’ll know for sure.
November 25th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Salvador: I have not been able to find any info online regarding the cost of cars in China. But I suppose they have all ranges, remember factory workers don’t make a lot of money so they have to buy inexpensive basic transport, and unlike the U.S. there is not much of a used car market over there. So new is the only way to go!
November 25th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Pedro -your spot on. A friend of mine owns a small machine shop here in CT. He does a lot of work fow Pratt and Whitney and Raytheon. Pretty high tech stuff. One thing that he said to me really hit home. “Wealth is manufactured”. If you don’t make things you are at the mercy of the people /countries that do. It’s the old toilet paper syndrome. If we lost the ability to make it here and it was all made in China-well, what happens if they suddenly decided to not sell it to us any more…..to use it as leverage….
November 25th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Pedro, I know- I’m been searching too; I found that the Chinese average assembly line worker makes two dollars the hour, but not the actual car cost.
-I was hopefull someone had already written an article on the matter, but I guess I was wrong.
November 25th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
by the way, the Chinese auto assembly line worker average salary, I got that from a business week article.
November 25th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
It appears regardless of all the discussion, the fact of the matter is China is a communist country with no real “free market” so a discussion of price and wages is always a guessing game.
Toyota has basically made some mistakes. The issue will be how they handle their mistakes and make good for their customers. The former big 3 made too many mistakes based on greed and arrogance, now the price is being paid in trying to woo those burned customers back and reform their poor reputations.
November 25th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
John,
Would you like to change your tune RE: Toyota Unintended Acceleration ???
Last week you made a point of responding to my comments and making it sound like there was NO WAY that Toyota could have a problem with there ECU or electronic throttle.
It seems that NHTSA along with consumer organizations seem to disagree along with Toyota changing their tune regarding the FLOOR MAT is the cause STORY!!
I am disappointed that you would so off-handidly dismiss an alternative cause.
Ralph Kercheval
November 25th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Ralph, what people are ignoring about Toyota’s throttle problem is that while some people may have loose floormats or all weather floormats, ALL Toyotas that people are complaining about have electronic throttle control.
Yep, Toyota has bamboozled the public again. Mr McElroy has bought into the floormat nonsense.
November 26th, 2009 at 8:30 am
BTW, The Toyota recall is now official. Toyota will “shorten” pedals of affected cars and trucks. Sales at Harbor Freight of hacksaws will now skyrocket to meet demand.
November 26th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/review-lincoln-mkt-take-two/#more-336997
If you want proof why the Detroit 3 went from owning 90% of the luxury segment to their current, rock-bottom 17% (!!), the above review and reader comments will help a lot.
November 26th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
“-Hey, where you get off; I don’t need international lessons on China. I did a valid question, HOW MUCH DOES Exactly A NEW CAR COST in CHINA???”
This is NOT a valid question. There are 1,000 car models sold in China, from the Rolls Royce Phantom and Ferraris to BMWs and MErcs to MANY Buicks and VW Passats and of course the local made POS.
Do you, with a straight face, want us to go look up the prices for all 1,000 models (make it 10,000 with the options and variations?)
In general, cars in China cost the same or MORE than they cost here (for a comparable model), and so are gas prices, despite the huge income gap on AVERAGE.
ANd give me a break with the fgactory workers, these are NOT the people that buy cars in China, they are the scucessful BUSINESSMEN and MERCHANTS and STORE OWNERS, these are the gus with enough $ to buy a car as good as yours, or even better, and sure NOT a $5,000 Maruti that indians buy, let alone a $2,000 Tata Nano (of which only 10,000 or so have been sold in several months now, production takes for ever to take off!)
November 26th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
http://www.chinatoday.com.cn/English/e2003/e200310/p102.htm
PS Salvador and Pedro: I just googled “CAR PRICES IN CHINA” and got a TON of articles like the above that also cite specific prices for specific models. Can’t YOU google?
November 26th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
The above article actually agrees with my prior comment that car prices in CHina are just as high, if not higher, than in the US:
“Overseas motorists have expressed surprise at the price of cars in China, as the cost here is at least double that overseas. The new Honda Wagon, for example, retails for RMB 259,800 in China, while in the US it costs only USD 15,000 — about RMB 121,000. Does this mean that Chinese people have become so rich they can buy a car as a matter of course? Not according to the State Statistics Bureau. During the first quarter of 2003, the per capita monthly disposable income of urban residents was about RMB 784.8, indicating a per capita yearly income of no more than RMB9,000. A household must, therefore, save for eight or ten years in order to buy a car priced at RMB 100,000.
Why are prices so high?
For one thing, China’s application of taxes on cars does not follow international practices. The price of a locally manufactured saloon car includes 17 percent VAT, 3-8 percent excise, 10 percent purchase tax, as well as import tax on accessories and local tax. This means that 30-40 percent of the purchase price goes on tax of various kinds. As to imported cars, taxes constitute 60 percent of a car purchase price.
Another reason is that China’s automobile industry has long been a protected monopoly. The absence of a basic competitive mechanism has made car prices abnormally high. According to the State Planning Commission, the auto market sales volume in 2002 reached RMB 151.5 billion, with profits of RMB 43.1 billion. The average profit margin of the entire industry is 28.45 percent — highest in the world. Experts have pointed out that Volkswagen earns RMB 2,000 on the sale of a car in Germany, but that this profit margin increases to RMB 20,000 in China!
Yet despite high prices, the majority of people still yearn for their own car. China’s automobile tenure amount is growing quickly, but there are still relatively few people that possess cars. In Beijing, for example, there were 276,000 additional cars in 2002, with a tenure amount of more than 2 million. Bearing in mind the huge population base of more than 14 million, however, most people are still waiting to buy a car. This is even more the case in smaller cities. The automobile is still a luxury in China, and most people will have to wait a long time before they can own one.
A Mr. Liu expresses the people’s common wish: “I hope car pricing will soon follow international practices. I wouldn’t want car manufacturers to suffer a loss, but it seems unfair that the price of a car in China should be so much higher than in the West.”
just IMAGINE how many more cars will be sold in China, than the current VERY HIGH levels (as high as US annual sales!) if their prices were as LOW as US prices!!!
November 26th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Nick Stevens Says:
November 26th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
(link)
“If you want proof why the Detroit 3 went from owning 90% of the luxury segment to their current, rock-bottom 17% (!!), the above review and reader comments will help a lot”
If you want a different, more positive take on the MKT, see what Car and Driver had to say at:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q2/2010_lincoln_mkt_with_ecoboost-short_take_road_test
November 26th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
One bird does not bring Spring. I will not have time to read the C&D review, but I am amazed they like this monstrosity. Also look at the comments (40++) of the review I posted.
But, most importantly, do not lose the forest for the trees.
My original point, the COLD HARD FACT that the Detroit 3 did FAR worse in the very profitable Luxury segment than in ANY other market segment, going from 90% of that market to a mere 17% today,
largely due to Lincoln’s Incompetence, (Caddilac is struggling to do somehting about it, although it still has a long way to go in Sales and profits numbers).
Even if the poorly named ugly whale thhe MKT is not a total Edsel or Aztek, it does not matter. It sure will not be the success that the original FOrd Taurus was, that saved Ford from doom in the mid-80s. Ford needs HOME RUNS, not ugly overweight overpriced POS like the MKT.
November 26th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
“DIMENSIONS:
Wheelbase: 117.9 in Length: 207.6 in Width: 76.0 in Height: 67.4 in Curb weight: 4957 lb ”
5,000 lbs? Is this acceptable in today’s and tomorrow’s car market with 35 MPG CAFE goals and $5 gas in the future again in a few years?
it is amazing that such a huge beast also has so little useful interior space, same as cars that weigh 1/3 LESS.
Pedro complained about this trend in smaller cars. The Honda Crosstour weighs 4,060 lbs. WHY should a Honda Accord Wagon weigh so ridiculously much???
Obviously, some designers and planners at Ford and Honda are smoking too many forbidden pharmaceuticals.
PS the main reason the CD review was not bad for the MKT was that they tested the $50,000 (BASE price, with options, make it a ludicrous $55,000 or higher) ECOBOOST excellent 6… Now how many people will shell out $50k or more for this ugly beast, and it does not even have a V8?
PS2 Did you read the MKT’s review of “THE TRUTH ABOUT CARS” carefully? I don’t know, since you did not comment on any of its features, but instead offered the CD review. You should…
November 26th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Nick: this business has become so competitive that all manufacturers just keep making them bigger and heavier to keep up with the others, imagine if Honda had decided to bring the EU Accord over here, it would have been smaller than all its competitors and they would have sold a lot less, some exec’s head at Honda would have been rolling or he would have been forced to do commit suicide. Until we get an industry-wide downsizing (like the 80′s) this trend will just continue. And remember the higher mpg requirements are coming, the problem is that it takes so long to get a car to market after its initial planning, perhaps we’ll see lighter/smaller in about 3-4 years.
November 26th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Nick Stevens Says:
November 26th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
“PS2 Did you read the MKT’s review of “THE TRUTH ABOUT CARS” carefully? I don’t know, since you did not comment on any of its features, but instead offered the CD review. You should…”
Yes, I read the “ttac” article, and it went out of its way to bash the MKT. I don’t like the thing either, especially its styling, but some people might like it. In my case, some cars with styling I don’t like initially have “grown on me” over time. The first Cadillac CTS, and the ~1980 Seville fall into that catagory. The Aztec always remained ugly to me, and to about everyone else. I agree that these Lincoln (and Cadillac) names are silly, but Lincoln and Cadillac don’t have a monopoly on silly car names.
If Honda had sold the EU Accord wagon here in 2006, they may well have gained a sale to at GM’s expense, when I bought my Malibu Maxx. I’m in a minority, though, in liking wagons and hatches that are cars. Also, to me, lightness is a virtue in cars, but I guess I’m in the minority of Americans, many of whom still seem to buy their cars “by the pound.”
November 26th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Nick wrote:
“Now how many people will shell out $50k or more for this ugly beast, and it does not even have a V8?”
I agree that the MKT probably won’t sell very well, but its not having a V8 shouldn’t be a reason, at least to people who have any sense In reality, the turbo V6 makes similar power and uses a lot less gas than V8 competition like X5 and Q7, and unlike many earlier turbos, it doesn’t need premium gas. Too bad the Lincoln doesn’t look more like the BMW and Audi.
November 26th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
I remember when John wrote about “the big toothy grin” of the MKT.Since that time,whenever I see a picture of that MKT I often have the urge to blacken out several of those “toothies” and give it the redneck look.I know…..I’m a sick unit,LOL.
November 26th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
I believe a lot of you gentlemen miss the point of a vehicle like the MKT for Ford. It’s based on the Flex, Ford has spent maybe 100 million in engineering on it, for each one sold Ford makes double the profit as they do on a Flex. For each unit sold, you spread out the production costs of the Flex platform. For those who can afford it, $5 gas is probably NOT a concern (pity the poor guy who buys it used!). It is an alternative to the Navigator class vehicles sold in the past. I may not like the styling, but hey I appreciate the fact that Ford and Lincoln do offer something different than what I consider those ugly Acura and BMW crossovers which by the way get similar fuel mileage.
November 26th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
@C-tech:You don’t give us enough credit.We all know the luxo barges are high profit items,whereas the econo boxs are not.That isn’t my beef.The MKT is just plain butt ugly.I’m happy as hell for anybody that can not only afford such cars,but can afford to feed them too.Yawn….
November 26th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
@G.A. I agree with a lot of your points, but many people here still critize Lincoln for NOT being BMW or Mercedes. Why? The Bangle BMW’s, Mercedes R-Class, Pick any Acura crossover or suv, and lately the BMW crossover ALL ARE JUST AS UGGGGLY as the MKT. Does more money bring bad taste?
November 26th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Yeah,everybody has an opinion on the american cars be it good,bad or outright hatred.In truth,I just don’t care all that much about cars in general.I love trucks/jeeps etc.It’s fun to be here,been here since day one,but never a big fan of single purpose vehicles.
November 26th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
C-tech Says:
November 26th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
“Ford and Lincoln do offer something different than what I consider those ugly Acura and BMW crossovers which by the way get similar fuel mileage”
Actually, the Acura and BMW get WORSE mileage.
Acura MDX 15/20
BMW X5 4.8 14/19
Lincoln MKT turbo 16/22
November 27th, 2009 at 12:01 am
Guys, as these weak Near Luxury companies start dying off here by the wayside the market territory gets better for VW and Hyundai.
A shame, but it opens the door for those with fresh new ideas, and a superior affordability and reliability quotient.
There’s a revolution going on in the Auto Industry, to where the dust wont settle until about 2014.
Subaru has pretty much taken SAABs place among my Generation.
Fact:
1. Subaru has superior luxury appointments than all of SAABs products.
2. Subaru shames SAAB in terms of Reliability.
3. Subarus have more power and better MPG.
4. They like SAAB have AWD and Turbos.
5. They are more affordable to a younger generation of people. The people SAAB targeted was in an Age/Career group with Lexus, BMW, Benz money. They couldnt compete.
Chrysler and Volvo will be next. Mercury and Buick in the very long term=2020. As those makes decline even further, near luxury Upstarts like: VW, Hyundai, Subaru, and Mazda will take their marketshare. People who drive Chryslers cant a afford a Lexus, but they can afford a Hyundai.
VW and Hyundai have powertrains down the pike that will put the unreliable MINIs to shame. MINI will be forced to adapt, or they will go by the wayside too.
Im not hating. Its just time for change, and you guys will have to accept it.
November 27th, 2009 at 7:01 am
H/S very good points, I’m surprised Mini has been allowed to take that market niche for so long, that’s why they’ve sold millions w/o any real competition. As far as SAAB, most people blame GM but in reality they were going down hill long b4 GM made the mistake of blowing millions trying to save it, perhaps they should have used the $ to improve THEIR own problems.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:02 am
The Mini is a niche car, and part of its appeal is the nostalgic connection to the original mini. The BMW Minis are not much like the original, weighing twice as much, etc., but they look somewhat similar and they are built in the UK.
I agree the power trains of Minis are nothing special, but they get the job done. I suspect BMW will improve the power trains offered as the market demands, but so far, the market hasn’t demanded very much. In Europe, they offer a diesel in the Mini, but we’re not like to see it here any time soon.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:24 am
I think Kia missed an opportunity to make the Soul more Mini-like by making it smaller, lighter and giving it better handling, maybe hiring Lotus, just like Izusu did back in the 80′s, to design a sharp handling suspension, this would have separated the Soul from its competitors even more.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:32 am
ps. note on that Isuzu, it was the Impulse, it’s so rare, I only found 2 on autotrader.com nationwide and the one with the Lotus suspension is a rust bucket, I had no idea those cars were so rare, I suppose they did not sell too many, plus they don’t last very long either, but when new, it must have been a blast with a turbo and the Lotus designed suspension. WE need more Lotus designed suspensions and turbo to get some excitement back into the auto industry, everybody plays it so safe now, that’s why so many young guys are doing their own thing with used cars they buy and do aftermarket work on them.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:35 am
I like the Soul, but it is no bargain, at least equipped as I see them. The ones at my local dealer sticker at ~20K. I may be old fashioned, but I still think a Kia should have a price advantage over a Toyota or Nissan.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:40 am
I had a car with a Lotus head, a Dodge Spirit R/T. The car went like stink, but the Lotus head and cam drive were seriously under-developed. The heads were prone to cracking, and the belts rarely lasted more than 40K miles before breaking. Thankfully, the valves didn’t hit the pistons when the belt broke.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Mullaly saved Ford but he is 64. Who will succeed him?
From Autoblog today: “When Alan Mulally arrived at Ford Motor Company three years ago, the Blue Oval was in bad shape. New product wasn’t exactly pouring in and the company’s cash hoard was steadily shrinking. And word on the street is that the corporate culture at Ford was in as much trouble as the product lineup, making change difficult. Now in 2009, it appears Mulally has done the near impossible, turning around Ford’s product lineup while supposedly positively altering FoMoCo’s corporate culture.
.. Mulally has given no signals of separating from Ford any time soon, industry insiders are already speculating on who will become his successor. The four names that continue to come up are Ford Americas President Mark Fields, global marketing boss Jim Farley, manufacturing whiz Joe Heinrich and Ford Europe savior Lewis Booth.
The Detroit Free Press feels the early money is on Fields. The Harvard grad has been with Ford for 20 years, and he’s lead some high profile success stories. He turned around Mazda and is currently piloting Ford North America in the midst of what appears to be a substantial product renaissance. Farley has an advantage in that he came to Ford from Toyota/Lexus and is seen by many as a real up and comer.
By many accounts, Heinrich is a bit of a manufacturing genius. The Harvard Business grad came from General Motors, where he became the company’s youngest ever Plant Manager at age 29. Booth has the longest resume and arguably the most examples of success. He appears to have consistently met and exceeded expectations everywhere he has been, including Mazda, Ford Asia Pacific and Ford South Africa. Booth is different from his fellow executives in that he is the only one who isn’t in his 40s.
We have no earthly idea who would become the next head of Ford, and we’re guessing that we’re at least a couple years away from finding out. We’re OK with that, because this Mulally guy appears to know what he’s doing.”
Fields or even that salesman Farley would be a tragedy of epic proportions. Heinrich is the man (or, better, the genius) for the job, with runner up the guy from the Euro operations, IMHO.
PS I fully agree with Nick Steven’s comments about Lincoln, which has lost its way, it is doing far, far worse than the Ford Division. If all of Ford was like Licoln and its lame, lamely named models, Ford would be in worse shape than both GM and Chrysler. But more of this in another post.
November 27th, 2009 at 11:03 am
The new Mini is much lagrer and more powerful than the really small original Mini, but it looks similar on the outside, very cute. It also should handle much, much better than other cars close to its size (Yaris, even the Fit). That is its main appeal, fun to drive, as is the main appeal of its owner company BMW.
BMWs in Germany are not adversised as “ultimate driving machines” but as “Joy in Driving” (Freude am Fahren). This is a far more descriptive, understated and believable slogan for anybody who has driven a BMW or a Mini.
Having said that, Minis are way overpriced and their interiors are plasticky and not luxury. I also hate the speedo in the middle of the dash, why does the driver have to strain his or her eyes to see it? There is no mother-in-law in the back (she would not fit even if she tried)!
November 27th, 2009 at 11:09 am
I find it utterly laughable to compare the ugly-as-sin and idiotically named MKT to the BMW X5. And the most amusing thing is, Kit compared it to the far more upscale and expensive BMW X5 4.4 V8!!!! Just because the V6 has a turbo? Giove me a break! You should compare it to the BMW 6 as well, of course, but, more interestingly, if MPG is important to you, the X5 is available with a FANTASTIC Modern Diesel, and Motorweek on PBS got an AVERAGE of more than 27 MPG with this beast, which OBLITERATES the silly MKT any way you slice it, and looks FAR FAR better inside and out and has far better materials and and and!
Give me a break, guys, some of you are in deep denial!
November 27th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Very, very few people shopping for the very successful BMW X5 will bother considering the MKT. Practically, NONE.
The MDX from Acura is another story. I would never bother with it, as I can buy a clone Honda Pilot which is even better for muc less $. But Acura as a whole is also in trouble, maybe not as big trouble as LINCOLN is if it does not shape up soon.
I cannot believe that the Excellent Alan Mullaly, who saved FOrd’s ass from bankruptcy, has actually seen and approved of that automotive atrocity, the MKT. And also that he has approved the SUICIDALLY tragic mistake of abandoning the old, well-known names of Lincolns such as TOwn Car, COntinental etc in favor of the meaningless alphanumeric babble like MKT, MKS and MKZ. SOme of which are not only meaningless, they are inconsistent!
(eg, MKZ means … “Mark Zephyr” while “MKS”=”Mark Sedan”!!!)
November 27th, 2009 at 11:15 am
@ H/S:Subbies are just plain GREAT!!! I bought my first one back in 79.A gold GL wagon,fwd.I drove that till there was nothing left but a driveline.I bought my wife a new subbie in 82,which after 140k miles we gave it to my nephew for college transpo.In 84 we each bought new subbies,she a sedan,me the last year of the brat.In 90 I bought her a new legacy which was just a superb car for the NE.After my brat I needed a “real” 4×4 truck,so it was goodbye to the ex,and goodbye to the Subaru’s.I wish they made something heavyduty for this country…sigh.
November 27th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Here is a different review of the MKT, written by none other than Robert Farago, who appeared in an earlier Autoline After Hours show as a guest:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/review-lincoln-mkt-ecoboost/
It says it all. This turkey is done, stick a fork in it…
November 27th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
And if you did not have the time to enjoy the whole thing, here is the executive summary evaluation of the Lincoln MKT Ecoboost:
“Performance: 5 stars. Anyone who’d want more thrust in this thing ought to have their headers examined.
Ride: 2 stars. If it was an SUV, fair enough. But it isn’t, so no fare.
Handling: 3 stars. Deadly dull but not deadly.
Exterior: 0 stars. Ghastly.
Interior: 0 stars. What we have is a failure to luxuriate.
Fit and Finish: 1 star. Nothing broke or fell off during the test drive, but Lincoln needs to reach higher. MUCH higher.
Toys: 4 stars. It honest-to-God parks itself and the SYNC works a treat, but the ICE audio quality is so muddy I wanted to put a pair of Wellingtons over my ears.
Desirability: 0 stars. I can’t imagine anyone pining to plunk down 50 large on one of these things.
Price as tested: $50K
Overall Rating: 0 stars. Beats walking and goes like stink, but the MKT is a complete embarrassment to all concerned, really. A badly built car that never should have been built.”
Pretty damning…
November 27th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
After driving a Subaru forester Turbo wagon with over 100k miles, I developed a much better opinion of Subarus. (it was thirsty, but I drove it hard)
Subarus are uglier than toyotas or hondas, but are here to stay because all three big 3 Japanese makers (and most domestics) have abandoned the wagon market, and people still want wagons, especially today that soccer moms hate minivans
Also, many want 4wd or Awd that subaru always offers, while many also do not need a full size minivan like most minivans on sale today.
Subaru would do much better if it improved their exterior styling and made AWD optional so people do not waste gas and $ if they do not live in the snowbelt, or if they are good enough drivers to drive without one. Then it would be able to reduce prices and improve its mpg.
November 27th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Jim says:
“Minis are way overpriced and their interiors are plasticky and not luxury. I also hate the speedo in the middle of the dash, why does the driver have to strain his or her eyes to see it?”
I’m not crazy about the center of the dash speedo either, the the ’06 I bought recently also has a digital speedo readout in the tach housing in front of the driver. My car is the first generation BMW mini. I don’t know if the new ones have the “second” speedo in front of the driver.
November 27th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Kit,
Is the Mini really that much fun to drive? Also, despite its larger size weight and HP, the BMW mini also gets very good MPG overall, I’m told.
How long have you had yours, how many miles, and any reliab issues? The mini could be an efficient city car for me too.
November 27th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Jim Sachetti Says:
November 27th, 2009 at 11:09 am
“And the most amusing thing is, Kit compared it to the far more upscale and expensive BMW X5 4.4 V8!!!! Just because the V6 has a turbo? Giove me a break!”
I compared the turbo V6 with the X5 4.8 (not the 4.4 V8 turbo), because that is the version of the X5 that has almost as much power as the Ford turbo V6. The 6 cylinder gas sold in the X5 has much less power, so does not compete, power-wise.
“if MPG is important to you, the X5 is available with a FANTASTIC Modern Diesel, and Motorweek on PBS got an AVERAGE of more than 27 MPG with this beast, which OBLITERATES the silly MKT any way you slice it,”
I agree. That diesel is great. Too bad they won’t sell it to we Americans in a plain, old 3-series RWD wagon, or better yet, sell us their also-very-good 4 cylinder diesels in the 3-series.
November 27th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
“# C-tech Says:
November 26th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
@G.A. I agree with a lot of your points, but many people here still critize Lincoln for NOT being BMW or Mercedes. Why?”
Without trying to list the whys in grwat detail, the simple answer to your Q is that the Luxury Imports went from a mere 10% of the market to the current devastating 83%, while Cadillac and esp. Lincoln were devastated, from 90% to 17%!!! And the pie did grow much bigger so the absolute values to ensure profitability.
The older posters may remember when Cadillac and to a lesser extent Lincoln was the name of the game, all other (chrysler and imports) brands were negligible.
“The Bangle BMW’s, Mercedes R-Class,”
Bangled BMWs are worse looking than their classically beautiful predecessors, but are still far better looking than that baleen whale obese MKT atrocity. BUT if you go beyond the exterior styling, interiors and performance is no contest, not even close. Did you ever own a BMW or A merc? And why focus on the R class on ly? This model was discontinued. Most of M-B slaes are from the C, E and S class plus the SUVs. The current S class is fantastic looking!!! The new E class, not so much, the previous version was very elegant inside and out and several classes above the Lincolns, which are really NOT true luxury cars.
“Pick any Acura crossover or suv, ”
All Acuras are wacky, the brand has lost its way, Hondas are better looking and cheaper, so Acura deserves to die, but Honda probably will jkeep it alive, it has deeppockets..
“and lately the BMW crossover ALL ARE JUST AS UGGGGLY as the MKT.”
Are you effing kidding me????? Do you even YOURSELF believe what you write? What a joke!
November 27th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Jim Sachetti Says:
November 27th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
“Kit,
Is the Mini really that much fun to drive? Also, despite its larger size weight and HP, the BMW mini also gets very good MPG overall, I’m told. How long have you had yours, how many miles, and any reliab issues? The mini could be an efficient city car for me too”
I’ve only had my Mini a few weeks, and so far, so good on the reliability. It is low mileage, only 22K, and still has some factory warranty left. I hope I won’t need the warrenty, but it’s nice to have, given the spotty reputation on reliability.
My car is a base, manual tranmission car. The shift quality is pretty good for a front drive car, not as good as recent Honda Civics, but not bad. While not having a lot of thrust, the engine sounds kind of nice when revved. I am getting about 32 mpg in driving that includes a lot of short trips. I generally drive very economically, accelerating moderately and shifting early, but wind it out once in a while “for fun.”
To me, the car is fun to drive, considering its moderate amount of power. The steering feels good, and the handling is good, as long as the pavement is smooth. Another thing about it is that most people seem to like seeing Minis because of their “cuteness,” even people who would not consider buying one.
November 27th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Back in the 80′s before those god-awful SUV’s became chic, Subarus were the car to own anywhere it snows. When I moved to Fl, I was shocked to see how few there were, with only a couple of dealers within a 50 mile radius (I think now there’s only one) But back then, there were sturdier and more expensive than Honda or Toyota and they were built to last and put up with the nastiest conditions. Mini’s filled a void which was left by cars like the golf GTI and Civic SI, fun to drive and affordable pocket rockets.
November 27th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
It looks like Subaru is completely losing any chance of ever selling me a car. They not only continue to make AWD mandatory in the US market, but they dropped the Legacy wagon, leaving only the “trucky” Outback version.
November 27th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Pedro says:
“Mini’s filled a void which was left by cars like the golf GTI and Civic SI, fun to drive and affordable pocket rockets.”
It’s hard to believe, but the BMW Mini is about the same size as a Mk 1 GTi/Golf, except that the Mini weighs about 700 pounds more. The ’83-’84 US market GTi had 90 hp while the “base” Mini has 115-118, so the power/weight of the cars would be similar.
November 27th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Back in the 80′s, just about every manufacturer had some kind of pocket rocket, even the Dodge Omni had its own version, torque steer must have been enormous on these FWD compacts, but they were still fun to drive, light weight so the power to weight ratio was pretty good, I like to go into autotrader.com and take a trip down memory lane.
November 27th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
They even sold Omnis with turbos. Unlike the regular Omnis, they had equal-length half shafts, but they still would have had gobs of torque steer in the lower gears.
November 27th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
@Kit:Back in 90 when I bought my soon to be ex the new legacy it was the first of the awd subarus.I was friends with everyone at the dealership from the owner on down to the mechanics.All of them showed me the fuse to pull in the springtime to change it to fwd only.Helped in mpg.I have no idea if that is still possible.If however your interested,ask a service dept from a sub dealer and see if it’s still possible to do that.
November 28th, 2009 at 6:37 am
Pedro, They held back on the Soul becuase the Accent starting from the Next Generation Model Will be Hyundai/KIAs MINI competitor. It will be a “Halo” car that will round out the entire Hyundai Lineup.
The Next Generation Accent will have 3 variants 4 Door Coupe, 3 Door Coupe, and 5 door Hatch. The 4 door Coupe will be a baby Next Gen Sonata, The 3 Door Coupe will be the Veloster Concept with a MINI Clubman Passenger side door-like Configuration. The 5 Door Will be an Elongated Veloster.
Powertrains:
1.6 Gamma 140 HP 45 MPG Direct Injection.
1.6 Gamma 176 HP 41 MPG DIrect Injection Turbo.
1.6 Gamma 140 HP 54 MPG Hybrid.
Options: Leather, HIDs, Hyundai Information System (Like Fords In Sync) Power Everything, Entire Roof Sunroof, Chrome Alloys.
On the Subbies. I love the syling of the Impreza/WRX hatch. I cant help it. Its ballsy in a weird way. It’s love me or hate me styling, but Im definately in the Love camp. Like Im in the I absolutely Hate the Styling of the Civic, Accord, and New Fit camps.
November 28th, 2009 at 6:58 am
Talk about Love me or hate me Styling, Im in the I Absolutely love the Latest BMW Concept Styling, and Acura Styling. Think about this for a second. VW/Audis Grilles and Styling was very Controversial 5 Years Ago. Their Styling is now the Industry Stanadard now. Just about every make will have models styled in this manner within the next 6-24 Months. The Big Gaping Grilles, and the Like.
Thats why I love Acura’s Styling. They have that Businessman from a Robocop like Pre-Apocalyptic Society look and feel to them. Its very Science Fiction, and maybe its 5-10 years ahead of its time, but I think that will be the Next Industry Standard.
November 28th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Who needs to develop a brand new lightweight FWD wagon that americans obviously need (hence the popularity of the small crossovers such as the CRV, that is an Accord-Civic class best seller, but with only 30-40 day sof inventory (vs the 80 and 88 for the other two!)
Dodge and Chrysler 25 years ago did it. The original minivan (and if you needed more space, the “Grand Caravan” version?) were properly designed, lightweight compared to today’s hippopotamuses, and with a few upgrades (all-around airbags, ABS, stability etc), they are actually a far better alternative to 4,100 lb wagons like the obese and ugly Honda Crosstour!
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/hammer-time-bye-bye-miss-minivan-pie/
November 28th, 2009 at 10:46 am
“# Kit Gerhart Says:
November 27th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
It’s hard to believe, but the BMW Mini is about the same size as a Mk 1 GTi/Golf, except that the Mini weighs about 700 pounds more. The ‘83-’84 US market GTi had 90 hp while the “base” Mini has 115-118, so the power/weight of the cars would be similar.”
it is not hard to believe. A former student bought a gen II Golf GTI in 86, cost him a high for these times $11,000, weighed only 2,200 lbs, I believe, and, even tho a GTI, had a laughably low 102 HP! Inside, it was as bad as most other 80s cars, angular and primitive dash etc, and quite cramped, but the back seat was OK for a car this small. The first gen must bave been even smaller and had much less HP in the non-gti version. These are good city cars, but not a car you’d take for a long trip and enjoy it.
I did rent a gen II regular golf in germany twice in summer 88, and did two long weekend drives of 3,000 km each (2,000 miles). The thing could go at 100 MPH for ever, and probably had a 1.2 or at best 1.4 engine with less than 70 HP. I never could figure out how its stereo worked.
November 28th, 2009 at 10:47 am
One should compare the original Mini to the Golf I, after all they were on sale the same time. Quite probably the mini was ligher.
November 28th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Kit wrote: “I’ve only had my Mini a few weeks, and so far, so good on the reliability. It is low mileage, only 22K, and still has some factory warranty left. I hope I won’t need the warrenty, but it’s nice to have, given the spotty reputation on reliability.”
Then it is practically brand new. If I could ask, how much did you pay for it? Any car with 22,000 miles should be OK for the next 40,000 or so, even an old VW or any other car with a bad reputation.
“My car is a base, manual tranmission car. The shift quality is pretty good for a front drive car, not as good as recent Honda Civics, but not bad.”
I would only buy a Mini wht the manual too, even if I did not buy the base version. It is much less fun with the auto, plus it is probably $1,000 more expensive when new. I am surprised the shift is not perfect, BMWs usually are, so I would think they paid attention to it. Hondas always had excellent shifts, incl our old 90 Accord coupe and 91 civic hatch, the last one we still drive and will probably drive another 20 years (low miles, sunbelt car)
” While not having a lot of thrust, the engine sounds kind of nice when revved. I am getting about 32 mpg in driving that includes a lot of short trips. I generally drive very economically, accelerating moderately and shifting early, but wind it out once in a while “for fun.””
32 MPG sounds similar to what others got in tests etc. That’s pretty good if it is average and around town mostly.
“To me, the car is fun to drive, considering its moderate amount of power. The steering feels good, and the handling is good, as long as the pavement is smooth.”
Handling should be excellent, given the design of the mini, that’s its main attraction, besides the cute styling you also mention below.
” Another thing about it is that most people seem to like seeing Minis because of their “cuteness,” even people who would not consider buying one.”
They sure are very cute and good looking exterior styling (and probably inside too).
November 28th, 2009 at 11:44 am
H/S:thanks for the info, I hope they’re successful with this plan. You know people complain about bland styling but when an auto maker tries something different, they call it ugly, etc. I don’t like Acura’s front end (pokeman) but the rest looks fine, just like Mazda’s big mouth Mazda 3 look or Lincoln’s toothy grill. Looks to me they’re trying too hard to call attention to themselves, thus driving away prospective buyers.
November 28th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
“. You know people complain about bland styling but when an auto maker tries something different, they call it ugly, etc.”
Not true. Nobody called the Chrysler 300 current design ugly, it was new, bold, AND everybody praised it as such. Its designer became something like a CEO for some branch of CLrysler currently. Same with the PT Cruiser, and also with countless exotics, ferraris, lambos etc. When a new design is ugly, it is rather obvious, like the Aztec, or the current Rolls Phantom, most subarus, new or old, especially the “Tribeca” which was so Edsel-ugly, Subaru re-designed it after only one yyar and made its front from weird-ugly to boring, etc.
“I don’t like Acura’s front end (pokeman) but the rest looks fine, just like Mazda’s big mouth Mazda 3 look or Lincoln’s toothy grill.”
Here I agree 100%. Perhaps there are rabid Sci-Fi or Star Trek fans that actually like the current Acura front styling. I am not one of them. Same with the Mazda open mouth, like a dumb whale shark eating krill..it looks terrible. I also hate the “zoom-zoom” stupid ad campaign. Come on, how can a serious person buy their cars if they are advertised by some clueless kid uttering the silly phrase? And the Lincoln MKT’s baleen whale grille is both grotesque, ugly, and, as the review said, not even functional (it is not needed for air intake, most of the mouth is blocked by a panel behind it, air does not enter freely in it)
November 28th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
The Data you have all been waiting for: Chinese Auto Sales (detailed) for 2008 (last year available), from Automotive news Data Center. I’d give you the link to the whole PDF file, but you need to be a subscriber to see it (around $100-200 annually)
TOtal 2008 Sales in China, 6,491,544, does NOT include either commercial OR even Imported vehicles. If you include impoorted, it must be much higher, since the 2009 sales are higher than the 10-11 million projected US sales!
Among the domestically produced are the following US, Euro and Asian makers:
VW, 983,436 (!!!)
GM, 485,545
Honda, 470,033
Toyota, 543,106
Hyundai-Kia, 450,163
Nissan, 361,015
Ford-161,758
Suzuki, 178,853
Mazda, 112,711
BMW (only 3 and 5 series included), 35,164
Mercedes, 14,355 (also not total?)
etc
It is a HUGE market, the second (now first!) in the world, and NONE of the above are cheap Chinese cars, to further emphasize my answer yesterday to Salvador’s q.
And not only is it a HUGE, HUGE market, it has been growing at an amazing rate, world recession or no recession!
Enjoy!
November 28th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
From the above, you can see that 2/3 to 3/4ths! of the domestically produced cars in CHina are NOT the cheapo chinese cars but expensive, established makers like VW, GM, TOyota, Honda, and Hyundai-Kia! Not to mention the luzury makers and the smaller makers.
November 28th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Nick: there’s no data on their domestic brands? does that mean that they don’t sell that many to even count? Maybe the Chinese are smart enough to avoid their own crappy brands. Jim. whether a car is ‘ugly” or not should be about personal tastes like everything else. I mean, some people find the Acuras attractive, and they did sell a bunch of Azteks, right?
November 28th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Pedro,
there are very, very detailed data on everything, I already explained to you that if I give you the link to the entire PDF file it will not work unless if you have a subsrciption.
As I clearly explained above, I gave you the total domestically made cars (the 6,491,544, and if you deduct the MAJOR makers I listed in detail, the remainder, which is less than 2 million, will be mostly the domestic Chinese brands, and it will also include smaller importers (like Chrysler, it had only 11,000 or so sales in China, Subaru, which may have more, and others I did not bother to copy in my original post.
So hopefully now you and Salvador have no doubts that the chinese marker is HUGE, and GROWING, and the vast majority of cars sold are EXPENSIVE Western type cars and NOT pos. The proof is UNDeniable above!!!
As to your other comment, you must be kidding me! You already saw that I agreed 100% with your taste in every one of the three examples you gave. While different people have different tastes, there is a very wide consensus about what is beautiful and what is not.
Very, very few people think that Aztec is beautiful, and very, very few people think that any Ferrari, or even Aston Martin for that matter, is ugly. Same with women, supermodels and Miss Universe Winners, I just will not believe you if you say that one of these is ugly, while other known women like Mother Tereesa and Golda meir, God rest their souls, were really, really ugly when we knew them, despite all the wonderful things about them.
And this is also an undeniable fact.
November 28th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
And NO, thry sure did NOT sell a bunch of Azteks, nor did they sell a whole lot of EDESELS either. Look the sales numbers up!
November 28th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Think about this for a second. Suzuki is very big in India and Europe as of late, maybe they should stick to those markets, just like Honda is very big in the US, but they cant give away the same cars over in Europe; becuase no one will take em. In Europe, more Hyundais/KIAs are sold than Honda Products.
If you think about it, the US is still the only market besides China and India where Hyundai/KIA has room to Grow. In most of the World including Canada. Hyundai/KIA outsells Honda.
That’s how Hyundai/KIA is the 4th Largest make in the world, and will be 3rd in Global sales behind VW/Audi, etc and
Toyota/Lexus/Scion/Subaru and Production within the next 12-18 months. They sell close to 800,000 in the US a year, but in Europe they sell closer to 1.1-1.3 Million units a year. Thats how much room they have to grow here.
The rest of the world has discovered the Value of these cars years ago, its just only now they have Existed in America. Existed as in people outside of the frugal are now interested in our cars. As I was saying to Pedro about the Accent being the Halo car from Below, thats what Hyundai/KIA needs to seal the deal in this country. Have Accent and Genesis attracting people to the dealers, to buy Elantras and Sonatas. The other trick will be to have a new Car that will replace the B segment spot from below the Accent, and the Equus from above the Genesis to show People that the Compnay is capable of making a Technological showpiece.
Kit, I hope you have good luck with yur MINI, but if that fails in a couple of years, just be rest assured you can trade it in for alternatives from: Hyundai, Mercury, and VW. Yeah, Mercury will have their own Fiesta Variant; they might even call it Capri. The MINI is an excellent car in Theory, and the Reliability Statistics should make BMW ashamed.
Pedro and Jim, I used to hate the Mazda Grille a few months ago, but its growing on me Slowly. The Grille is Fine, they need to refine it somehow, maybe a Chrome bar or something.
November 28th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
H/S do you think the new Sonata is finally going to give Toyota and Honda real competition in that segment? At least on paper, it looks like a winner.
November 28th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
It will be a cut above the Toyota, competitive with Upper Trims of the Accord, and Competiive with lower spec TLs.
Hyundai wants to take people out of the established near Luxury Marques, and get them out of the: Regal, S40, Milan, and Sebring. It wants to be a step ahead of the VW. Which I think right now Hyundai’s Principal #1 Competitor is VW. Both are are brands changing from an Econo car image to an image of affordable near luxury. The KIA Optima will be on Par with Camry, Malibu, and Fusion. If you seen the Spy shots of the Next Gen Optima you’ll see what Im talking about. It’s beasty. Looks like a car Detroit should have made.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/109082721325/2011-kia-vg-sedan-aka-opirus-amanti-spied-in-death-valley
The Article says Amanti, but thats the Optima. It was a misprint.
I forgot to mention that most Hyundai/KIA products will have in dash weather forecasting soon too. The Sonata and Optima will be the first new models to feature it.
They are testing a Sonata 2 Door Coupe as well. Something to go in between the Genesis Coupe 2.0 and Gen Coupe 3.8. The Featured Powertrain will be the upcoming 2.4 Direct Injection Turbo that will get 275 HP. The 4 door Coupe will get that powertrain as well. They might give it the 6 that Will go in the Sonata Touring (Portico Wagon) as well.
November 29th, 2009 at 9:19 am
Hyundai/Kia deserve a lot of credit, they set out years ago to improve their quality and now to improve their products and their place in the market. They need to be careful not to allow too many or their cars to go to rental agencies, ti lowers the value of their used cars. If you look for a used Kia, most of the stock is previous rentals. (you gotta be crazy to buy one). That’s why they lose so much value, even with the transfer warranty. The next thing Kia has to work on is their dealer network.
November 29th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
http://www.detnews.com/article/20091129/OPINION03/911290321/1148/auto01/GM-optimistic-about-Cruze-premiere
A good first review of the Chevy Cruze. It seems quite improved over the Cobalt it replaces. It’s got to be good to compete vs Civic and Corolla.
I like the modest HP and 40 MPG hwy, from either 1.8 basic engine with 123 HP, 138 lbft and the 1.4 turbo with 138 and 148, this one should be adequate.
While about as short as the civic and corolla, the cruze is wide and tall, as it should to maximize space at modest cost. It also claims to be quiet, a BIG improvement over the coffeemakers Cobalt, Cavalier etc. And 10 airbags.
DId it mention price? I bet it will start at abt 17-18
November 29th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
No, No price info. I also like the six speed and the 600 mile range (hWY) from its modest (must be 15 gal) tank.
It will also compete vs the fake Focus (still the old model, while the Euros got the far better 2nd gen for years now, and I really do not want to hear the excuse about how more expensive the new focus is, all cars are more exp. in Europe than in the US!), the Sentra, the Elantra etc.
November 29th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
“HyundaiSmoke Says:
November 28th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Think about this for a second. Suzuki is very big in India and Europe as of late, maybe they should stick to those markets, just like Honda is very big in the US, but they cant give away the same cars over in Europe; becuase no one will take em. In Europe, more Hyundais/KIAs are sold than Honda Products.”
What a Bunch of clueless BS. Are you paid by Hyndai to spew all that nonsense? Honda is far, far higher quality and price than Hyundai will ever be. Honda is also big in CHINA, if you bothered to read the FACTS posted by Nick Stevens here a few posts ago, as big as TOyota and GM are in CHina! Unlike Hyundai, Honda NEVER sells its high quality vehgicles to RENTAL compoanies to prop up sales, NOR does it discount them as the domestics, Nissan and even TOyota (and of course Hyundai and Kia) do.
Hyundai-Kia do well in the poorer European markets where people make little $, as little as $1000 a month, and cannot afford the much higher than US prices for comparable models. A COROLLA there costs 17,000 EUros with just a 1.4 engine, that’s $30,000 (!!!!!!!!!) US! No wonder Hyundai and Kia are almost the No 1 sellers in such poor markets, but that does not mean they are on par with TOyota or Honda in quality, and no matter how often you spam us with your lengthy Hyundai Commercials, few will believe it.
As for Reliability, you obviously never owned a BMW, so again you have no clue what you are talking about, these cars are, unlike Japanese and especially Korean JUNK, MADE TO Last lifetime, their high prices and the Frugal Euro buyers will NOT pay an arm and a leg for a car that will not last them many, many DECADES. VERY different than thhe US market, where people dump their cars long before 10 years, and the Asian brands are OK for that interval, but beyond 15 years, they fall apart. Not to mention the RUST!!!
November 29th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Oh, and PS, the so-called “Genesis” coupe is NO genesis, and John McElroy agreed publicly on this in the comments section, I think he referred to a post also by Nick Stevens some time ago. The “genesis” coupe is almost half the price of the sedan, is far, rfar smaller and lighter by 500+ lbs, and does not even have the V8, while the REAL Genesis sedan does not have the 2 or so lt 4 the coupe has. A TOTAL Fraud by Huyndai to capitalize on the good reviews of the Genesis SEDAN and peddle its unrelated, NON-Luxury coupe as another “genesis. How DUMB does Hyundai think US buyers are?
November 29th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Well Jim, Honda hasnt been above Hyundai in quality in 4 years. Check the JD Power.
The Genesis isnt Infinti Luxury, but its not a Tiburon Econo car either. Its near Luxury, its better than a SAAB 9-3 Coupe/Hatch, but on such a pro American make (Which I consider SAAB a US make) site as this one, I bet John Mc Elroy wouldnt admit to that? Its better than what established Near Luxury makes like Chrysler can muster up. Chsylers usually have cloth seats on 2 or even 3 trims of a model, why does this “Non-Luxury” coupe as you can John make it out to be, have Cloth seats on one trim which is the cheapest trim possible, but if you want more than that you have to get premium features. Humm… maybe that’s why SAAB is on its death bed? When a Korean Company can make something better than what they have without really trying, its time for SAAB to go.
By the way, Hyundai offers a dirt cheap variant of all of its cars, to keep some of its customer base who truly cant afford an upmarket product quite yet, but as Hyundai slowly but surely gets rid of those dirt cheap trims in the long run, those customers will be forced to shop at KIA.
About BMW, BMW hasnt been more reliable than Hyundai in 10 years. Just Check those facts out as well. MINI hasnt been off the bottom of the reliability lists since its introduction to the US market. There has been improvement with MINI, its just that the others are getting so much better, so much faster.
Im not advertising Hyundai, Im just stating fact about their future products. I call my statements a reminder of what competition the US Makes have, especially on a pro US site such as this one.
What are you scared, is that why you have such a problem? Or, are you mad becuase an upstart Korean car make can have much better reliabilty than an established German Manufacturer?
Reliability facts:
1. Lexus
2. Cadillac
3. Porsche
4. Hyundai
5. Mercedes
6. Ford
7. Honda
8. Subaru/Toyota
9. KIA/VW/Suzuki
BMW is not even in the top 20 in reliability and MINI is 34 out of 34 makes=AT THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE LIST!!!!!
With your attitude of Denial, with your fancy BMW products with all of the toys, fact is fact. That fact is BMW/MINI will stay in the reliability doldrums, until you BMW/MINI onwers get a grip of your situation. Just becuase you spent more doesnt mean its a good product. All of you BMW/MINI guys/gals act this way. If I spent that much on a car it better be up there in with Lexus, Cadillac, Porsche and Hyundai on the list.
Pedro I agree, Hyundai has dropped its fleet sales while rising KIA’s fleet sales. When they did that Hyundai started hold somewhat better value than before. However, people need to try more KIAs, as you can see from Jim’s attitude there’s still a lot of ignorance about this company.
You can have Great looking products like KIA has right now, you can have a great reliability score like KIA has now, but if people still see KIA as it was 10 years ago, like they treated Hyundai about 5 years ago not as many people will buy their products as they could.
Most people know nothing about cars, and if they trust soemone who kind of knows about cars, but doesnt know enough that KIA has gotten so much better its not funny, and they tell them a KIA is a POS without checking the facts. Guess what, they will believe them.
Hyundai/KIAs marketing Dept is getting better, but boy they still need a lot of work in chaging the perception from the reality. The Engineers did their jobs, marketing just needs to make their jobs worthwhile.
Im not a Hyundai Worker, or Im I related to soemone who works at Hyundai or any of that other malarchy. Im just someone who has been driving their products for the last 10 years, and has seen the day and night trasnformation of this company first hand. If you look at the Prices, reliability, and options these cars have, you would be foolish to not buy one.
Maybe that’s why I became a Hyundai Superfan?
November 29th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
By the way John Mc Elroy, people who drive small KIAs like that grunty engine noise you found the Forte test, but since you know little of this company you would say what you said.
You may not like the Noise, but you or people like yourself arent going to buy it either, correct?
Sure the Civic is quieter, but at what cost? I have a buddy with a Civic Si, the spark plugs are at the back of the engine, etc.. if you own a Civic you have to take the thing into the dealer for maintenance. With that KIA, an 25 year old can do service on it in a parking space at his apartment complex.
Its like the Civic has become a 10 year old Cavilier or something. If you want a car you can service yourself without spending a sinful amount at a dealer, get a Hyundai/KIA.
November 29th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
My only experiences with the Hyundai brand has been a 2006 Accent I rented, (did not like it one bit) I know the next gen is better, and I just rode a 1998 Sonata that a friend bought used, I was surprised at how well it had kept up with time and all the miles. It was quiet,rode well, good interior with no rattles or engine noises, I was very impressed.
November 29th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
2006 Accent only came in Sedan Form. As an Accent Driver, I wouldnt buy the sedan. If I needed a sedan Id get the D-segment sized C-Segment classed Elantra. The Seats in the back of an Accent Sedan back are tiny, and since the sedan is heavier its going to be slower. You can actually sit 2 6 footers back to back in the hatch without a big compromise, you cant in the sedan. Hatch rear head room needs work though.
The Powertrain is too lightweight for a sedan, invented in a world with $1.30 gas, and Hyundai was so concerned about maintaining high quality in the Accent that it would modify old tech just to make sure they had a tried and true powerplant. While on the side, they were creating next generation technology. It has been over the last 2-3 years replacing the Tiburon as the company Tuner car though (More so than the Gen Coupe 2.0 is), which is good for future products. Tuning brings this car out to where it really should be.
Im not a fan of B and C segment Sedans. B and C segment cars should only come in hatches, and if you need a sedan so much, get a D-segment Sedan with some real space.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:02 am
“Pedro Fernandez Says:
November 29th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
My only experiences with the Hyundai brand has been a 2006 Accent I rented, (did not like it one bit) I know the next gen is better, and I just rode a 1998 Sonata that a friend bought used, I was surprised at how well it had kept up with time and all the miles. ”
Early Huyndais and Kias were Yugo-like cheapo tin boxes, I have seen them in shows and dealerships. I rented a Sonata in Milwawkee in 2005, it was the top Hyundai car model at the time, it was a mix of basic stuff (cloth seats) and options (heated seats! and sunroof), but it did not drive well, it was still a crude attempt to compete with the Accord and the Camry. Even today’s Sonata, which is 1-2 gen later, has not been successful in selling even remotely close to the number sold by the Accord and the Camry, but sells one-third of what each of them sell every year.
Hyundai and Kia may be making the same mistake that GM has always made, and which is responsible for it going broke: Too many different models cannibalizing each other, too similar. WHat is th edifference between the Sonata and the Kia Optima? Not much. Why offer both? And where will they find the Hundreds of millions to advertise each model and educate the consumer about what they are?
Look at Honda and Toyota and even Ford! They only have ONE mid-sized family car (Fusion, Accord, Camry), ONE compact (Civic, Corolla, Focus) and ONE subcompact (Fit, Yaris, Fiesta next year)! It is far easier to the consumer to remember what each model is, and saves the makers billions in advertising over decades!
November 30th, 2009 at 10:10 am
“HyundaiSmoke Says:
November 29th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Well Jim, Honda hasnt been above Hyundai in quality in 4 years. Check the JD Power. ”
JD Power is a JOKE. And even Power itself says it only checks very EARLY reliability and Quality, at most 5 years, but mostly initial quality and up to 3 years. not long-term durability, which Jim correctly pointed out, for German Cars.
If I want to see reliability data, I’ll go to COnsumer Reports, but even these are limited to the first 8 years or so of a car’s life, and cars last TWENTY years today, even here in the snowbelt.
I cannot explain your infatuation with these inferior products, are you a Huyndai salesman? Then you should admit your obvious conflict of interest and leave this forum, which does not tolerate commercials and sales pitches.
if you are not paid by Hyundai-Kia, then you still have no clue what you are talking about. In particular your comments that…. a CIVIC has anything in common with a crude Cavalier of all cars. You obviously never owned any of the two. I have owned BOTH (still own the civic) and they are day and night, Civic quality and reliability is MONUMENTAL. And our civic is a 44 MPH highway Actual MPG 91 hatch that never broke down or needed any repair to date! Try that with a POS Accent or whatever!
I also owned the Pontiac version of the cavalier in the 80s, what a piece of junk, but also very fuel efficient with its 5-sp 84 HP 1.8 lt Opel engine..
And then you totally cluelessly told Kit to dump his MINI and… get some Huindai or Kia piece of junk instead? Are you effing insane? NO automaker makes any product even remotely close to the Mini, and least of all cheapo Hyundai or Kia!!!!
November 30th, 2009 at 10:30 am
From the Automotive News data website that I was able to access without a subscription…
China’s top-selling passenger
vehicles in 2008
Model Sales
1. Wuling Light/
Sunshine/City Breeze 545,239
2. Changan
Green Star 222,366
3. Hyundai Elantra 203,734
4. Volkswagen Jetta 202,303
5. Buick Excelle 175,470
6. Honda Accord 170,304
7. Toyota Corolla 165,270
8. Toyota Camry 152,834
9. Nissan Tiida 137,193
10. BYD F3 136,782
November 30th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Welcome everyone to the “Nick Stevens-Jim Sachetti-Thor” Show! Awfully difficult to tell them apart, don’t you think?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Hyundai Smoke (it is interesting that while ,most of the rest of us post with our real names, this person is so fanatical about H-K that he or she posts under the.. Hyundai Name?) claims that Hyundais are “VALUE” propositions. I do not even agree with that one.
H-S focuses, like most US consumers that buy domestics with deep discounts, on “FIRST COST”, ie how much he or she pays to drive the car off the dealer’s lot. This is just the beginning, and one should NOT compare the cars on this basis.
One should add the entire cost of operation, incl fuel, maintenance and repairs, BUT, also, one should include the RESALE VALUE, which has been KILLING Hyundai and Kia until not so far ago. I remember $10k Kia Sephias that would sell for $4,500 (private party value, trade-in would be worse!) after only a YEAR of operation and low miles! ‘
There are organizations and websites such as Intellichoice that used to try to estimate the TOTAL cost of ownership above, and their previous recommendations were the “Expensive” Hondas and Toyotas, they ended costing LESS when everything was included!
November 30th, 2009 at 10:35 am
“# Max Christensen Says:
November 30th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Welcome everyone to the “Nick Stevens-Jim Sachetti-Thor” Show! Awfully difficult to tell them apart, don’t you think?”
Another Hyundai Salesman?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:37 am
“# T. Bejma Says:
November 30th, 2009 at 10:30 am
From the Automotive News data website that I was able to access without a subscription…”
Why don’t you post the entire report then, the link to the entire PDF file? YOur list is a mix of makers and specific models and you do not even list the totals. In any case, can you confirm, since you can see the site for free, that Nick’s specific numbers were correct, and if not, please correct which ones were not.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Here is the entire publication on China that also includes the PDF file I got my (100% correct, Jim) data from:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20090427/DATACENTER/904249962/1032
See if you can access it without subscription.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:42 am
“# Max Christensen Says:
November 30th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Welcome everyone to the “Nick Stevens-Jim Sachetti-Thor” Show! Awfully difficult to tell them apart, don’t you think?”
Thor is my Evil Twin.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Here’s the best selling car in China:
http://www.made-in-china.com/image/2f0j00EMmaNOTKHGprM/WULING-Sunshine-7-8-Seats-Minibus.jpg
November 30th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Here is the document I got my data from:
http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA61057424.PDF
November 30th, 2009 at 11:36 am
T. Bejma:
I tried to read your document several times, there is no doubt I have access to read it, I can see the margins of the PDF file, and a 102% enlagrement on my screen, but it is a blank page when it appears.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:41 am
@ Nick-Jim-Thor
Need I say more?
November 30th, 2009 at 11:51 am
“Need I say more?”
Of course you do.
On the one hand, you did not answer MY question, are you a Hyundai-Kia salesman?
On the other hand, Nick spoke for himself, NOT me, and if you can read, you’d notice.
Why don’t you try to contribute something of value to the forum instead of accusing this and that poster of being this and that former poster who has not bothered to post here for months, as the record shows?
November 30th, 2009 at 11:55 am
“# Max Christensen Says:
November 30th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Welcome everyone to the “Nick Stevens-Jim Sachetti-Thor” Show! Awfully difficult to tell them apart, don’t you think?”
Thor is my Evil Twin.”
The most hilarious part is that Max Chr. believes in evil twins…
November 30th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Im just a Hyundai Superfan. Consumer reports likes Hyundai, by the way. Maybe I dont use my real name, for work related reasons? I do have a job to where if I used my real name you can find out who I am.
I know what Im talkng about Ive worked on a 2001 Cavilier Motor, the Motors in the New Civic are no Different from a 10 year old Cavilier or other 10 Year Old “Old GM” Product in terms of layout; except that its from Honda. Humm Maybe that’s why the Civic Si has reliability problems, like the way it does?
Nick you speak of Cannibalizaton, thats why Hyundai is going upmarket, and KIA is going uptempo. Its their way of ending cannibalization, etc…..
Im not hating on Kit for driving a MINI, its just that every single reliability list magazine, etc… the MINI is at the bottom of it or almost at the bottom of it, While Hyundai is always consistantly either in the top 5 or top 10.
Check any reliability list. Hyundai is ranked the lowest on Consumer Reports out all of the lists, and we are still 8th place out of 34 makes on that list.
November 30th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
By the way, I look at Camrys and Sonatas all of the time. I dont get the Camry, I dont understand why its still a seller. Its still a hot seller, in an era where everybody else makes sedans that are just as good or better.
Toyota still has reputation on its side, that’s why people are still buying Camrys when there’s a cornucopia of value of there.
Plus, baby Boomers love Camrys, and there’s still a lot of you guys around.
July 15th, 2011 at 3:38 pm
I’ve never had to worry about recalls, because instead of buying a Toyota, I went with a BMW. BMW repair is rarely needed, and I don’t have to worry about my accelerator getting stuck to the floor of my car. Scary stuff.
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