AD #3553 – SAE: EVs Fall Short in EPA Estimates; Chrysler Shows Dealers New Electric Sedan; GM & Hyundai To Make More Batteries in U.S.

April 25th, 2023 at 12:01pm

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0:00 GM Q1 Sales Dip Due To 24% Drop in China
1:15 Hyundai Posts Massive Financial Gains
1:56 GM to Open U.S. Battery Plant with Samsung SDI 
2:34 Hyundai Boosts Capacity at Planned U.S. Battery Plant
3:30 Chrysler Shows Dealers New Electric Sedan
4:26 Tesla Shows Minimal Battery Degradation
5:27 BMW Expands In-Vehicle Live Sports Streaming 
6:36 SAE Study Finds EVs Fall Short in EPA Estimates
8:15 Boston Converting School Buses to Electric
9:12 Siemens Opens New EV Charger Plant in Texas

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33 Comments to “AD #3553 – SAE: EVs Fall Short in EPA Estimates; Chrysler Shows Dealers New Electric Sedan; GM & Hyundai To Make More Batteries in U.S.”

  1. ChuckGrenci Says:

    SAE is absolutely correct; there should be city and highway listing for EV’S. They could also add combined to keep it all as similar as possible.

  2. Kit Gerhart Says:

    1 They should also have city/highway/combined gas-only ratings for plug-in hybrids. There is a huge difference in plug-in hybrids. The Wrangler is dismal, even though it sells well, but the PHEV RAV4 Prime significantly outperforms the non-hybrid in gas mileage, even if you never plug it in, and it’s quicker.

  3. Warwick DUNDAS Says:

    I liked your fantasy about watching American Football in the rear seat of a BMW I7. If you have never seen Australian football known as AFL I think you might enjoy that too. Non stop action played by players wearing little protection usually impresses my American friends.

  4. Lambo2015 Says:

    GM also announced it was dropping the Bolt at the end of this year.

    I would think there has to be a lot more at play when it comes to battery degradation. Not just age but number of cycles, and are they charging fully, or just to 80%? Are they using rapid charging? So a 5% loss is probably best-case scenario.

    I agree that EVs should provide a city and HWY range just like ICE vehicles. Would help buyers know what to expect depending on what they plan to use the vehicle for. Especially if that city/HWY range is vastly different.

    The average school bus gets about 12k miles a year on them. at 14 cents thats only $1680. But with a 10K refund from the utility companies thats a $8320 profit per year. They last about 14 years so that $116,480. Not sure what those Bluebird EV busses cost but seems like a no-brainer. Plus it seems that they should be able to go more than 14 years. 10K seems like a high number for back-feeding electricity.

  5. Warwick DUNDAS Says:

    There was a suggestion that the Chrysler Airflow concept was an older design concept and would not make it to production. The real new Chrysler would be a more modern design. I hope it ends up being significantly more sophisticated than the Dodge concept we have seen, otherwise why bother making a separate model?

  6. Kit Gerhart Says:

    4 Fullness of charge and depth of discharge have a lot of effect on battery lifetime. I have my laptop set to charge only to 80%, and my phone to 85%. That should help make the batteries last long. I suspect the very fast discharge is a lot of why lifetime of batteries I use for model airplanes is very short.

    Yep, city and highway range ratings would be very useful for EVs. I would expect tall, draggy vehicle to have much higher city than highway ratings.

    This was supposed to be attached with #2.

  7. Albemarle Says:

    GM dropping the Bolt and Bolt EUV at year end is an interesting decision, particularly in light of the very few Hummer and Lyrics being produced. As well, they will only have the introductory models of the Equinox and Blazer EV on the market by then, at least a year away from volume production.

    I can only conclude that EVs are not seen as jugular to the company. Like most other companies, they forgot they needed to organize the batteries too.

  8. Albemarle Says:

    I read that GM is adding a battery pack assembly plant to its Ingersoll Ontario BrightDrop plant.

  9. Kit Gerhart Says:

    They show highway/city/combined MPGe ratings of BEVs on the EPA site, but only combined range.

    The published EPA mpg ratings for ICE cars are downwardly adjusted from the test results, to better reflect real world mileage. Maybe they need to downwardly adjust the range numbers for BEVs.


    7) The Bolt and Bolt EUV will have a similar price to the new Equinox EV with low range battery. I suspect GM figured that people, who are not really receptive to the bolt now, would likely not choose the smaller car over the larger Equinox for a similar price. So they are cancelling the Bolt, which needs rebates to sell, in favor of the Equinox EV which likely will not need incentives to sell.

  11. thredd Says:

    A friend of mine has a Ford Lightning and thought he could drive from Erie, PA to the Pittsburgh airport on a full change. Its only 140 miles. He had to stop and charge again on the way there. This would have been all highway miles and during cold weather. So I’m guessing the Lightning does much better at slow speeds. But still disappointing.

  12. Lambo2015 Says:

    So as used EVs hit the market I wonder if the on-board systems can provide current battery degradation? It will be similar to buying a used ICE and wondering if you bought a vehicle that got regular oil changes and proper service or in the case of an EV rapid charges and driven in ludicrous mode most the time.

    11 That would stress me out having to spend an extra 20 min or so to charge up on my way to the airport before a flight. I’ll make sure the car has gas the day before just so I dont have to make any stops.

  13. Kit Gerhart Says:

    12 All recent EVs would be able to measure battery degradation. I have a phone app that does that for the phone battery. It measures the watt hours used for a few charge/discharge cycles, and compares that to the rated capacity of the battery. My ~2.5 year old phone has 87%, according to the app. Not too great.

  14. Roger T Says:

    Starting to think that Sandy Munro is right – EV transition is coming sooner than we realize. When all of this battery capacity coming up is live, cost of EVs will likely drop significantly. Or else demand may render the battery industry worthless.

  15. Wim van Acker Says:

    @11 speed has a huge impact on battery range, so it would be interesting to know the speed your friend was driving. And his driving style. And what the range indicated on the instrument panel was when he left for the airport.

    Either the vehicle was not fully charged, or he drives very inefficiently, or his F150 Lightning is not operating as it should. Without knowing more the story does not add up.

  16. Kit Gerhart Says:

    11,15 Also, use of cabin heat hurts a lot in cold weather.

  17. merv Says:

    Sean, you come up with a BMW for some hockey watching, I’ll fly down and join you and take care of the beer.

  18. Sean Wagner Says:

    Kit, battery longevity isn’t easily comparable, what with active heating and cooling of the pack, bespoke chemistries, and nifty algorithms.

    I remember that back when the Model S was the only Tesla, a shuttle service between LA and Las Vegas had accumulated several hundred thousand miles on each of their cars.

    And regarding school buses, there’s a Walker electric truck that ran with its original batteries from 1914 to… ta-dah, 1960. Of course, this can’t be used to show battery longevity, but I think it is an indicator of overall vehicle durability.


  19. Kit Gerhart Says:

    11,15,16 The Lightning has resistive heating, not heat pump, and that crew cab would have a lot of volume to heat.

  20. ChuckGrenci Says:

    @6 Kit, in regard to your RC batteries (I used to be pretty heavy into RC: cars, boats, airplanes) and used nickel cadmium, which seemed to last quite a while. Are the new batteries of today, lithium based, and prone to shorter life?

  21. Kit Gerhart Says:

    20 Yep, it’s lithium batteries now for powering airplanes. They have 3-4 times the energy density of NiCads, so that’s what is used for electric motor airplanes. I like NiCads for radios, because the last about forever. I have a ~20 year old transmitter with the original NiCad, and it still works. NiCads are hard to get now, and NiMH don’t seem to last as long. Different types of lithium batteries are not commonly used for transmitters, and LiFeP are fairly common as receiver batteries for airplanes with ICE engines.

  22. Kit Gerhart Says:

    20 Did you use NiCads for electric powered airplanes, or just for radios? I had a couple “low performance” electric airplanes years ago with NiCads, but the energy/weight greatly compromises performance compared to glow or gas. In the ’80s, I raced cars indoors in the winter, using 6 and 7 cell NiCads, which was the thing at the time. Another thing that has greatly improved performance of electric airplanes, is brushless motors. I don’t know the numbers, but they are significantly more efficient than brush motors.

  23. Norm T Says:

    2, Kit, has owner reported fillups as low as about 30 mpg for both RAV4 Prime and Hybrid. So YMMY!

    Car & Driver 40,000 miles longterm test of a Model 3 had OBD-ll software showing about 6%. This journalist driven and only Supercharged charging, which degradation batteries faster than 240v level 2. With Tesla rentals only being fast charged it should be interesting to see how they fair.

  24. Norm T Says:

    Kyle Conner Model Y rental battery test.

  25. Sean Wagner Says:

    Does anyone remember the Plymouth Expresso (sic) concept car in screaming yellow? That would make an excellent cheap city EV. I’m astonished no Chinese company has stolen the design yet.

  26. ChuckGrenci Says:

    21,22 Yeah, mostly Glo for me, though I dabbled with off-road dune buggy that was electric. Nicads for trans and receiver; I think the electric motor was nickel metal hydride. Your right about the nicads in the tx and rx; never had to replace them.

  27. Kit Gerhart Says:

    23 Yep, YMMMV. I get near 40 mpg with my FWD Highlander hybrid in mixed driving in Indiana in the summer, mostly at speeds of not much over 60 mph. I get 33-34 on long trips on the interstate, mostly at about 80 mph. As with other cars, the way you drive has a big effect on mpg. If a light turns red in front of me, I let off the gas, rather than charging up to the light and slamming on the brakes like some people I know. That helps mpg. Even with hybrids, braking gently is better. Hybrids don’t have enough MG capacity to recover hard braking efficiently. The friction brakes are doing a lot.

  28. Kit Gerhart Says:

    26 A few years ago, probably 10 years, I needed a battery for glow plugs. With difficulty, I found a sub-C NiCad, and it’s still working. A NiMH probably would have died 5 years ago.

  29. Bob Wilson Says:

    Owner of a 2019 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus, it has 104,686 miles. The battery range is down ~215-220 miles from the original 240, ~10-8%. I’m not selling.

    The Tesla SuperCharger network has expanded faster than my battery degradation. So the first week of March, I drove 1,888 miles for $166 of electric costs. My longest segment was 30 hours and 1,300 miles from Huntsville AL to Albuquerque NM where the motel offered free breakfast and overnight charging. Autopilot/FSD did the driving while I supervised.

    This month I did some Wh/mi benchmarks at 35, 60, and 75 mph. Solving a quadratic equation and knowing the battery capacity, I have a graph of speed versus range that allows me to predict accurately how to reach my next destination.

    One irony is the value of my Tesla is just under the $15k value of Full Self Driving.

  30. Bob Wilson Says:

    That 1,888 mile trip was Huntsville AL to Las Vegas NM where I stayed at a motel with free electric charging. Unfortunately the ‘valet’ parking attendants were not very good about putting a charge on my Tesla … unless I bribe-tipped them heavily.

  31. Kit Gerhart Says:

    30 Were you required to us the “valet,” and not allowed to park yourself?

  32. Bob Wilson Says:

    Valet parking was required at the hotel whose name rhymes with “Dump”. The “Dump International Hotel” where on the 24th floor, there was no sound from any adjacent rooms or the hall. But you could hear a drunk tossing his load on the street below. The large picture window had no audio dampening so you heard every noise in Las Vegas.

  33. Kit Gerhart Says:

    32 Doesn’t sound like too much fun.