AD #2994 – NTSB Wants EV Fire Guidelines; Renault Reveals Future Plans; Foxconn & Geely Join to Make EVs

January 14th, 2021 at 11:49am

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Listen to “AD #2994 – NTSB Wants EV Fire Guidelines; Renault Reveals Future Plans; Foxconn and Geely Join to Make EVs” on Spreaker.

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Runtime: 10:49

0:07 U.S. Traffic Deaths Up, Despite Less Congestion
0:38 NTSB Calls for EV Fire Guidelines
1:28 Kia Sedona Being Renamed Carnival
4:17 Renault Reveals Its Future Plans
6:12 Foxconn & Geely Join to Make EVs
7:16 Geely & Baidu Will Make Smart EVs
7:57 Detecting Road Conditions with Existing Sensors
8:42 The Toyota Land Cruiser is Puzzling

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41 Comments to “AD #2994 – NTSB Wants EV Fire Guidelines; Renault Reveals Future Plans; Foxconn & Geely Join to Make EVs”

  1. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The original Toyota Land Cruiser was a Jeep CJ competitor, crude, but very off-road capable. The current Land Cruiser is more a Dodge Durango with a nicer interior, for twice the price. No wonder it doesn’t sell. The now-extinct FJ Cruiser was a retro truck inspired by the original Land Cruiser. It sold moderately well, but not well enough to justify doing a 2nd generation.

  2. bradley cross Says:

    Renault finally abandoning the Ghosn model.

    Nissan are already on this anti-Ghosn model.

  3. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The real Toyota Land Cruiser

    https://www.hagerty.com/media/buying-and-selling/now-is-the-time-to-buy-toyota-fj40/

  4. Norm T Says:

    A new Land Cruiser is $76K while an Escalade is $64K on cars dot com. While a 2009 with less than150,000 miles the LC is $26K and a Escalade is $17K.  A new LX570 3-row is $92K while a 2009 is $27K.

    So the LC drops $50K and the Escalade only drops $48K.  Toyota LC is not luxurious and should not have that depreciation compared to another luxury marque.the LX is more like a luxury vehicle in it’s high depreciation of $65 in the last decade.

  5. Buzzerd Says:

    Seeing the picture of the Renault F1 car made me wonder why they don’t make a sports car? Isn’t that the point of racing – tech transfer to the road. Why not cash in on the many years of racing knowledge

  6. Kevin A Says:

    … that is why the Renault F1 team is rename Alpine next year, so that the name lines up with Renault’s existing luxury sports car Alpine line.

  7. Kevin A Says:

    Sean, If real time road conditions are going to be gathered, could they PLEASE sell that info to city governments? Maybe then the city could fix the pothole before I hit it.

  8. Buzzerd Says:

    But doesn’t Alpine just modify cars?

  9. Lambo2015 Says:

    I could see EVs igniting long after a crash. With that much stored energy they need to find a way to deenergize the batteries. Having the potential for an arc to spark another fire while on a flat bed or in a storage lot or worse in a repair shop could be extremely bad. Its like they need to placed into a metal storage container void of oxygen until they can be deenergized. Especially if the damage is internal to the battery pack where a simple disconnect wont protect the car.

  10. GM Veteran Says:

    Ironically, the slow selling Land Cruiser was outsold in the US market last year by its sister model, the Lexus LX. There is very little price premium for the Lexus model, which might explain why it sold 1,400 more units. I have not heard any announcement that the Lexus is being discontinued. An all-new Land Cruiser will be sold in other world markets next year with a twin turbo V6, but not here. I imagine the cost of certifying the new vehicle for sale here is not supported by this low sales volume.

    The low sales are no surprise. It never has sold well here. It is built in one plant for the entire world, so that constrained the number of units they would bring over here. Also, as other have noted, you get a lot more vehicle, with a lot better mileage, for a lot less with Chevy, GMC, Cadillac, Lincoln or Ford.

  11. Roger Blose Says:

    Hi John and Sean, how about a story on the millions of dollars that the Big Three are saving on their warranty claims and costs due to the Covid mess. New cars sitting in people’s driveways, not being driven while the 3 year/36K clock is ticking. I know that my own 2018 model has low miles and no warranty issues due to low pandemic usage. Just a suggestion.

  12. Drew Says:

    Wow, short memories. NHTSA experienced one of those “thermal events” after they crash tested the gen 1 Chevy Volt. The poor Volt took a quick and unearned reputation hit, as NHTSA failed to follow GM’s post crash procedure to de-energize the compromised batteries. I know Ford and GM publish such procedures, but I suspect the NTSB saw an opportunity to justify their funding/budget to the new in-coming administration.

  13. Kit Gerhart Says:

    From CR’s “compare cars” tool, the MSRP of the LX at $86,730 is only ~$1100 more than the Land Cruiser. No wonder it sells better, even though it is seriously ugly, at least to me.

    10 “you get a lot more vehicle, with a lot better mileage, for a lot less with Chevy, GMC, Cadillac, Lincoln or Ford.”
    …and you really get a lot better value from Dodge with a Durango, which has about the same passenger and cargo space as a Land Cruiser, and costs half as much, or barely over 1/3 as much with a V6.

  14. Kit Gerhart Says:

    12 I don’t know what “new incoming administration” that was, but the test was in May, 2011, pretty much in the middle of an administration. Anyway, lithium-ion batteries can catch fire both from being shorted and from being physically damaged. From the report, it sounds like the Volt which caught fire might have had both. Also, the batteries can catch fire if overcharged. Here’s the report on the Volt in question.

    file:///C:/Users/kitge/Downloads/Final_Reports%20(1).pdf

    Has anyone heard what might have caused the Porsche Taycan to catch fire in someone’s garage a while back?

  15. XA351GT Says:

    So traffic deaths were up Jan-Sep in 2020 , I’m surprised they didn’t say it was due to Covid like every other death that no longer happens since it reared it’s ugly head. Gee more people driving under the influence , who didn’t see that coming with legalizing Pot? The lockdowns really screwed with people’s heads and probably why the DUI accidents are up as well. So maybe it really is Covid to blame after-all.

  16. Kit Gerhart Says:

    14 oops, my “link” wasn’t a link. If anyone is interesting in the test, google “chevy volt crash test fire.”

  17. Drew Says:

    Kit, sorry about the confusion… I am referring to the incoming Biden administration, and my guess that NTSB sees an opportunity bolster their standing.

    NTSB’s claim is slightly off the mark. Yes, fires can emerge from damaged batteries (often latently at the salvage yard), but the major risk for 1st responders is the high voltage wiring. You have seen the bright orange wiring harnesses under hood, but there is a hidden danger when 1st responders have to use saws and the jaws-of-life to extract trapped occupants. Our 1st responders need easy access to high voltage wiring schematics and/or access to a standardize master “off” switch.

  18. Kit Gerhart Says:

    17 Even hybrids have electrical hazards, with 200-300 volt batteries. My Camry hybrid has orange wires under the hood. Yeah, even with the small, <2 kWh battery, there could be a serious hazard from the wires going from the battery under the back seat to the front of the car where the MGs and electronics are located.

  19. Drew Says:

    18 – Agree… same with my Fusion Hybrid.

  20. DanaPointJohn Says:

    I reviewed the 2020 Land Cruiser and came away with all the same questions. My final thought was the Land Cruiser makes no sense as an on road or off road vehicle, and the price is ridiculous. I could not understand why anyone, other than the most die hard Land Cruiser loyalists, would even consider it.

  21. Lambo2015 Says:

    15 Another good reason for more people driving under the influence may be attributed to Covid. Many people have avoided ride sharing apps like Uber and Lift in an effort to reduce contact and are now driving when they otherwise would have called for a ride before. Just a thought and I have no data to support this theory.

  22. Lambo2015 Says:

    21 Cont- I did find this; from Nov 5th 2020
    “Uber is still getting pummeled by COVID-19, as the raging pandemic continues to drag the company’s ride-hailing business down. Uber lost $1.1 billion over the last three months, with its adjusted net revenues down 20 percent compared to the third quarter of 2019.

  23. Wim van Acker Says:

    @Sean “Toyota only managed to sell a little over 3,000 last year in the US market”, and 20: yes, 3,000 sold in the U.S. and 397,000 in other countries. The U.S. has outstanding domestic SUVs and in other countries those are virtually non-existent. So to me it makes sense for Toyota to give low priority to trying to get the U.S. sales from 3,000 to let’s say 4,000, while they have markets in which they have the established player for decades and sell 397,000 annually.

  24. Wim van Acker Says:

    @23 “have been the established player” instead of “have the established player”

  25. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Interesting AAH today, but some of Sandy’s predictions?? EVs will be half of the US market by 2028, when they are only 2% now? Lots of people will buy 3 wheelers for regular transportation? Bunches of electric flying machines will replace cars in SoCa? Time will tell, but I don’t see it.

  26. Kit Gerhart Says:

    23 Maybe it’s time for a new FJ Cruiser to compete with Bronco and Wrangler.

  27. Wim van Acker Says:

    @26: maybe, but I am not sure it would be worth investment to compete against some of the strongest vehicles in teh U.S. market. Picking your battles is probably a much more profitable strategy.

  28. Wim van Acker Says:

    @26, 27: I put my reading glasses back on so this time without typos: @26: maybe, but I am not sure it would be worth the investment to compete against some of the strongest vehicles in the U.S. market. Picking your battles is probably a much more profitable strategy.

  29. Kit Gerhart Says:

    27 Yeah, true, unless there would be a global market, which is probably unlikely.

  30. Kit Gerhart Says:

    The vehicle I’d like Toyota to make, and which I’d almost definitely buy, is a Camry LE hybrid wagon or hatchback. Same height, same powertrain, but a body that “opens up” in the back to make it easier to load long/bulky items.

  31. ChuckGrenci Says:

    25, I was at today’s AAH and fully agree that the predictions you cited are not going to happen (at least in the time frame presented). I was somewhat inspired that Sandy appears to have softened somewhat on what I thought was leaning a little too much to Tesla (as a messiah). Granted Tesla spurred the movement to BEV but the next 5 years will see if the rest catch up or at least are well represented.

  32. Bob Wilson Says:

    My understanding is putting the EV in a pool of water works. Rather than one pool, have a water proof sheet and make a car sized water balloon. Tie it off for a couple of days and problem solved. In effect a biblical style flood.

  33. Kit Gerhart Says:

    31 Tesla seems to have the lead in EV powertrains, especially efficiency vs performance, and, of course, have the best charging network for those who use EVs for highway trips. On the other hand, most reviews say the Models 3 and Y ride poorly, there is the build quality thing, and many people would like to have, say, a switch for the windshield wipers.

    I see the Ford E-Thing as being real competition for the Model Y. Something Tesla has that others don’t, to my knowledge, is the heat pump cabin heat, a very good thing in cold climates.

  34. Lambo2015 Says:

    25,33 Not taking anything away from Tesla but lets remember Ford Dominated the US car market too in 1908 with the introduction of the Model T. However by 1928 gm outsold Ford and the sales leader teetered back and fourth until 1936 when gm took off and outsold Ford through 1986. So for those folks that think just because Tesla is the current leader they will remain in the lead. It only took 20 years for Ford to loose the lead and Tesla has been around how long? EVs is anyone’s game.

  35. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Tesla now has ~80% of BEV market share in the US, which is ~1.6% of total market share. In the unlikely event that Sandy Munro is right about BEVs having 50% market share by 2028, Tesla will probably have not much more than 5% of total market share, unless they buy GM, Ford, or VW.

  36. Ukendoit Says:

    33, My limited understanding of heat pumps is that they work very well and efficiently in moderately cold climates by extracting the heat from the cold air, but that if the outside temperature gets much below freezing they barely work. Do you know if this is accurate? If so, does Tesla have a back-up electrical heater for when the heat pump fails to heat in extreme cold climates?

  37. Kit Gerhart Says:

    36 That’s generally accurate. Heat pump heating for homes in cold climates works best using “water source,” using well or stream water for the evaporator, rather than outside air.

    Tesla uses coolant from the motors, electronics, and/or batteries to make the system work better. I’m not sure if they have backup resistance heating, but I’d guess that they do. Bob Wilson, if you see this, do you know?

  38. Carl Says:

    Kia Carnival. ROTFL. That’s my laugh for the day. Will it include confetti, balloons and a churro machine in the back!?

  39. Bob Wilson Says:

    #37 – Using the waste heat from motor, inverter(s), and sometimes battery is multiplied by the heat pump. It is the ow cabin heat demand, ~1-1.5 kW, that makes the heat pump, 0.3-0.5 kW, so efficient when using waste heat from car.

  40. Sean Wagner Says:

    37 Kit – I think the Model 3 did away with resistance heating in favor of specially driving the motor coils to create waste heat. Very smart.

  41. stephen Says:

    Looking at the car-tech partnerships it seems that every tech giant wants to be in the EV car business but needs a car maker to build it. The fact that a good EV needs a generic battery sled platform and then the real IP is the software on top is attracting big tech (with zero car experience) to the “mobility service market”. Will we see a Microsoft/Oracle/Amazon mobility product soon as well? Like smartphones and laptops most of these techgiants don’t even manufacture themselves (even Apple is barely in it). Few seem interested in advancing public transport (bar space taxis for Nasa)