AD #2687 – Ford & Mahindra Form New JV, Nissan IMk Hints at Future Design, All-New Lincoln Corsair Impressions

October 1st, 2019 at 11:42am

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Listen to “AD #2687 – Ford and Mahindra Form New JV, Nissan IMk Hints at Future Design, All-New Lincoln Corsair Impressions” on Spreaker.

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Runtime: 6:33

0:06 Ford & Mahindra Form New JV
0:52 Vehicle Discounts Up in Q3
1:27 Large Electric Bus Completes Durability Test
2:18 Citroen’s Glamping Van Concept
2:52 Nissan Reveals Funky Small EV Concept
3:45 EV Running Costs Are Half of Gasoline
4:42 All-New Lincoln Corsair Impressions

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56 Comments to “AD #2687 – Ford & Mahindra Form New JV, Nissan IMk Hints at Future Design, All-New Lincoln Corsair Impressions”

  1. Dave Says:

    Cost in British Columbia with electricity at $C0.11kwH and gas at $C1.38liter [Vancouver more] it makes a difference not to mention carbon taxes increasing or coming

  2. Kit Gerhart Says:

    There appears to be no hybrid version of the Lincoln Escape. There should be, since they will sell a hybrid version of the Ford.

  3. cwolf Says:

    The Corsair is nice. Lincoln has focused on putting better interiors in their line-up and it shows. Clearly Lincoln is moving in a direction to compete with European rivals.
    Unfortunately, the Corsair tops out around $60K.
    IMO, it is over priced. There are other luxo’s having a solid reputation that cost that much and one that is even less.

  4. Larry D. Says:

    A. Ford and the crooks at Mahindra. Their new slogan will be “Quality is job 100 (out of 100).

    B. Incentive spending makes perfect sense. The average transaction price now is $39k!!! even at a $4k discount, this is still a lofty $35k, only a few grand below the excellent Model 3. ALSO, it is economics literate, let the fools pay full price, and the smart shoppers get the discount. Why do a failed Saturn and have fixed prices? The company (dealer) will lose a ton of $ that way.

    C. On the cost of running an EV:
    “Running a car on electricity costs about half of what it costs for running it on gasoline.”

    You forgot to add, “IN THE USA”. Running an car on electricity in Europe costs one fourth to one FIFTH of running it on gas.

    D. and it gets worse. “The price of electricity is going up in the US an average of about 1.5% per year. So at some point there could be a crossover where it’s more expensive than gasoline”

    No. You assume that electricity prices will keep advancing by 1.5% a year, while US gas prices will still be at a DIRT CHEAP $2 or $3 a gallon? Really? When the rest of the civilized world pays $8?

  5. cwolf Says:

    The Corsair is very nice. Lincoln has done a good job improving the interiors in their line-up and it shows. Lincoln wants to gain more recognition as a luxury brand and their pricing sure is reflective of that.
    But ,IMO, the Corsair is over priced. It tops out about $60K! There are other Euro models who already have that reputation costing that much and one even less.

  6. Wim van Acker Says:

    ATV Team, electric driving: “So at some point there could be a crossover where it’s more expensive than gasoline. So at some point there could be a crossover where it’s more expensive than gasoline. But based on today’s rate increases, that day is a couple of decades away.” Yes if fossil fuel based gasoline cost will not increase for decades. Could you please share the underlying information for your assumption that electricity cost will increase by 1.5%/yr for the next decades and gasoline prices remain constant for decades?

  7. Bob Wilson Says:

    Your EV running numbers are fairly accurate but there is one caveat when doing cross country trips. Electrify America, EVgo, and Tesla SuperChargers have a time based, per minute cost, not the actual kWh rate.

    Our maximum 50 kW rate BMW i3 initially cost twice as much as our 100 kW Tesla Model 3. Worse, the BMW charge taper makes it 4 times more expensive than gasoline. Around town, the BMW i3 like our Model 3 is half the cost of gas.

    From a practical standpoint, any EV with less than 100 kW charge rate becomes expensive. The 50 kW rate of the Bolt and Leaf like our BMW i3 are painfully slow and expensive.

  8. Kit Gerhart Says:

    4 The Corsair starts at $11K more than the Escape, and will have to compete with the well received BMW X3 and Audi Q5. Also, one of few decent selling Acuras, RDX is in that market. It will take some time with “build and price” tools to really know how they compare in price, comparably equipped.

  9. Bob Wilson Says:

    About the increase in electrical costs, refineries use a huge amount of electricity to refine crude oil into gasoline and other petroleum products. As electrical costs go up, it adds to the crude oil production costs.

  10. Kit Gerhart Says:

    6 Don’t you just charge them at home most of the time, for ~12c/kWh, at least the BMW? I assume you would use the Tesla for any road trips, because of the supercharger network.

  11. Wim van Acker Says:

    @8: BP estimates the world’s oil reserve is 53 years at current production level. Other estimates are in the same order of magnitude. So assuming decades of constant gasoline prices seems like a wrong assumption to me.

  12. Lambo2015 Says:

    Sean; At this point how many joint ventures do each manufacturers have? I lost track between the JV on battery development, JV on EVs, JV on autonomy, JV on ride sharing, JV like this Ford Mahindra for global sales. Seems to be a very common practice anymore.

    EV running costs are basically irrelevant as its been pointed out many times here that there is no cost advantage to buying an EV. People buy EVs cause they want an electric car, or think they are helping the environment. If they bought it to save on fuel they are kidding themselves at least in the US.

  13. Bob Wilson Says:

    #9 – Around town, both cars get ~250 Wh/mile (or 4 mi/kWh) and both often use ‘free’, merchant provided chargers. The longer range Tesla, ~150 mi in town by choice, goes all day but the 72 mi, BMW i3 needs a midday charge session.

    We’ve done +600 mi trips in both the BMW i3-REx and Tesla Model 3. With the BMW i3, we turn on the Range Extender as soon as we can and drive the ~40 MPG car in ~70 mile segments. The 2 gal tank makes it a comfortable, long distance, motorcycle trip.

    In contrast, our Model 3 gets 140 miles in 20 minutes of charging which my wife and her dogs love. An old man, frequent biology breaks make everyone happy.

  14. Larry D. Says:

    10 I enjoy reading the BP statistical survey every June, but their oil reserves estimates are way pessimistic, and some of that is required. They have little of the US vast reserves of shale oil, for example.

    The push for higher oil and gas prices will come not from the ample supply, but from the demand side, assuming China continues its stellar growth and other developing nation become car driving nations.

  15. Larry D. Says:

    7 I thought the X3 and the Q5 are one size bigger than the Escape and its Lincoln clone, which are more like X1 and Q3 material

  16. Bob Wilson Says:

    #10 – The recent Saudi oil field attack jumped the price ~$0.10/gal. The limited number of oil producers and political issues makes subject to wide price swings.

  17. Larry D. Says:

    https://insideevs.com/news/373812/ev-sales-scorecard-september-2019/

    September sales are in today, and the Model 3 is the 800 lb gorilla (or elephant) in the living room, with 20,250 sales in September alone, while the Model S had 5% of that, 1,100, and the Model X, 1675, or less than 10% of the model 3. The Prius Prime did not even pass the Model X, at 1,650.

    But the big sales story for Tesla in 2019 and BEyond is in China and Europe.

  18. Larry D. Says:

    15 any serious increase in oil prices will come very gradually, as the demand in China and other developing nation expands. Supply is plentiful, especially in the world’s no 1 producer, which is the USA (!!!) again, after 75 years or so!

  19. Kit Gerhart Says:

    14 The Q5 and X3 are 3 and 5 inches longer, respectively, than the Escape/Corsair. CR puts the X3, Corsair, Q5, RDX, Cadillac XT5, MB GLC and some others in the same category they call “luxury compact suv.” How they are perceived will be different. CR’s favorite of the bunch is X3, and I suspect it would be my favorite, but I’ve never shopped that market at all.

  20. Bob Wilson Says:

    #11 – Retired on a fixed income, I really appreciate the low operating costs. At traffic lights, I floor the EV to get across the intersection first, reach the speed limit first, and choose which lane I want to be in. Then AutoPilot is my chauffeur with 360 degree coverage for lane changes.

    As for the environment, our EVs are the quietest, faster on the street, and no emissions testing. My hands never smell of gas so is something wrong with that?

  21. Larry D. Says:

    18 My colleague and former student who is not driving any more, and used to hate SUVs, later became a convert and has an X5 with the 3.0 lt and a Q5 he bought both used off lease with low miles. I just talked to his wife to ask her how he is doing and she told me the Q5 is used by their daughter who just started med school (I thought she did not know how to drive) and the BMW needs a battery (she thinks). Neither of them is something I would be interested in, even at bargain fire sale prices.

  22. Larry D. Says:

    16 from the link I give, for the first 9 months of 2019, the Model 3 sold 114,500 in the US alone, the S 10,350 and the X 13,725, for a total of 138,575, and 4/3rds of that is 184,767 for calendar 2019, or about four times what Volvo (all its models) will sell in the same year.

  23. ChuckGrenci Says:

    There has been a lot of speculation, with and about what Sean postulated. As with the switch from EV from ICE and the job transitions, I believe the fuel story will probably mimic that same action, that of gradual ebb and flow of product, prices and demand. All who have contributed in the discussion of oil, gas, electricity and the alternates are right and wrong; the story hasn’t been written yet even as some trends are becoming a bit less nebulous. Of course even my diatribe may become worthless if some, now unknown occurrence happens on a grand scale unforeseen by us all.

  24. Kit Gerhart Says:

    19 Funny you mention the smell of gas on your hands. That never bothered me because it goes away quickly, but when I had the diesel VW a while back, I tried harder not to get it on my hands. The diesel fuel would take a long time to go away, and didn’t wash off easily, even with soap.

    21 I’m surprised all of those H/K EVs sell so poorly, unless they are not even available most places. The Kona and Niro electrics have 200+ mile range, but sell in the 2 digit, and low 3 digit numbers. Maybe it’s mainly that they cost too much, for what they are. The Ioniq EV has only 124 mile EPA range, so no wonder it doesn’t sell.

  25. Kit Gerhart Says:

    C and D just drove a Jeep Gladiator, with a sticker price of $60,965 price as tested. Holy crap. I guess my Corvette was an even better buy than I realized.

  26. Lambo2015 Says:

    20 Bob I assume your reply was to me not #11 and no there isn’t anything wrong with owning a fast quiet car that you wont ever have to smell of gas. My you proved my point even further. None of those reasons have to due with saving on fuel. Its all those other reasons that people buy EVs. If anyone out there has bought an EV for economic reasons then they have poor financial sense. EV’s have lots of other reasons to be attractive to some people but cost savings is still not one.
    BTW I’ve pumped gas in my cars for the last 15 years and not gotten it on my hands so maybe your doing something wrong. The only time my hands smell of gas is wrenching on a car or over 15 years ago when the pump shut offs were not as good and they didn’t have the splash collars.

  27. Kevin A Says:

    As an ex-refinery guy, I have to say you are missing the point on the price of gas AND electricity. Most of the price of gas is taxes. As cars go electric, the government will add those taxes to electricity or change all taxes to ‘per car’, so electricity costs will rise much faster that you think. Also, as cars go electric, the non-tax part of the gas price will drop. The same amount of gas comes out of each barrel, and the price drops until it all gets sold. Less demand for gas = lower prices.

  28. Kit Gerhart Says:

    27 In Europe, a lot of the cost of gas is taxes. In the US, it is not even close. In Florida and Indiana, where I spend most of my time, the total of federal and state tax is about 20% of the pump price, even at today’s low prices.

  29. Kit Gerhart Says:

    26 I never get much gas on my hands when pumping gas, and rarely get any, but when I had the diesel, I found that a little bit, like a drop or two went a long way, in getting a whiff of it hours later.

    Leaded gas had a lot more “residual” odor, and the stuff would have been a lot worse to get on you than today’s gas.

  30. Lambo2015 Says:

    29 yeah no doubt Diesel will stay with ya. I think cause its more oily and doesn’t evaporate as quickly. When I drove truck it would get spilled on the ground get on your boots and tracked into the truck. Well that and sometimes when we hauled blacktop we would splash some in the bed to keep it from sticking. My boots and clothes always smelled of diesel.

  31. Kit Gerhart Says:

    30 Yep, the diesel stuff evaporates a lot more slowly than gas.

    I normally filled my VW diesel at car-specific pumps, but I had an interesting experience one time, at a place where the only diesel pumps were the high rate ones for big trucks. I had to barely squeeze the handle to keep it from kicking off, or trying to spit fuel out, but got it filled. My mpg came out to 60-some, rather than the usual low-mid-40s, so I thought I haen’t gotten it full. The next fillup mpg came out normal. The high flow pump metered way low at the rate I was pumping, so I got a few gallons of free fuel, at first without knowing.

  32. Mike Pulte Says:

    You reported that the EV running cost is about 1/2 of a gasoline vehicle but the gasoline price includes road taxes but your EV cost did not include the extra annual tax states are adding to offset the loss in revenue from gas tax. Include this and you will find the gap is far narrower!

  33. Terrence Quinn Says:

    It seems inevitable that electric cars will overtake carbon fuel cars, although I think it will be slower than this column predicts (until recharging stations are in place to make long distance trips feasible). But in order to make that happen, it will require a major expense to put the infrastructure in place to allow the recharging stations to be installed. And the capital cost of building that infrastructure will raise the cost of electricity. How much will it raise it? I don’t know.

  34. Terrence Quinn Says:

    I spoke to someone else about the electric vs gasoline cost comparison. He notes that the cost of gasoline without taxes is $1.57/ per gallon. And those taxes will be imposed somehow on electric cars, as the money is still needed for the roads. That makes ICE cars a lot closer than the electrical cost proposed in the article. On the other hand, charging your electric car at night will have a lower electric cost per kwh at night, as most utilities have lower rates then.

  35. Bob Wilson Says:

    #26 – There are two approaches to cost accounting: (1) those who treat capital and operational costs as one, and; (2) those who separate capital from operational costs. A primary example are Microsoft vs Apple computers.

    The purchase price of PCs has remained less than Apple products. But companies I worked for had three times as many employees maintaining the PC per seat versus the Apple users. So the first year, more PCs, but thereafter, the labor cost to keep the PCs running ballooned.

    I’m in the capital cost is a separate account from the operational cost which is why we bought Toyota Prius and drove them hard. I never had a brake job on those Prius and even ordinary ICE maintenance was substantially less than our previous ICE cars. Since 2016, our EVs are even lower cost to own and out performing ICE cars every day is amusing.

    In 6 months, we put 13,500 miles on our Model 3. At 30 MPG and $2.50/gal that would have been $1,125 in gas along with an oil and air filter change. In contrast, my EV charging costs have been between $300-400 without oil or air filter changes.

    The old saying, ‘pay me now or pay me later’ applies comparing our EVs and ICE cars.

  36. Kit Gerhart Says:

    A number of states have EV surcharges that
    are much higher than the gas tax paid for use of a regular car. Georgia, for example, charges $200/year extra, about 50% more than the total state plus federal gas tax I pay for my Camry, and I doubt if Georgia sends any of the money to the feds.

  37. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Here’s a good article about EV fees.

    https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/more-states-hitting-electric-vehicle-owners-with-high-fees/

    At some point, I’d think EV miles driven might be taxed using GPS transducers, but cheating would become a business.

  38. Lambo2015 Says:

    35 Absolutely right! and the pay me later will be when your EV needs a battery. Then see if those operating costs even out.

  39. Larry D. Says:

    https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/tesla-model-3-passes-vw-polo-no-1-seller-dutch-market?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20191002&utm_content=article8-image

    Articles like this will be commonplace in the next few months. We already saw the Model 3 do great in the much larger UK market, and of course dominate Norway car sales.

  40. Lambo2015 Says:

    33 Having a charging network will not have the impact that people are hoping for. Most EV buyers will buy with the plans to charge at home and have a vehicle that can do a daily commute without having to charge again until back home. I’m willing to bet they will do 95% of their charging at home and only use public charging if going outside their vehicles range in a given day. Given that most public chargers will not be free and probably more expensive than home charging they wont be used unless absolutely needed. Until charging is as quick as filling up with gas I just don’t see the public stations having a huge effect on sales.

  41. Kit Gerhart Says:

    40 If there were public chargers “everywhere,” like in the parking lots of restaurants I go to, etc., I might consider an EV, even without home charging. The cost of charging would need to be “fair,” though. Still, I am unlikely to seriously consider an EV without home charging availabity.

  42. Larry D. Says:

    And while Tesla had a stellar September even in the US (see 22), the other makers were massacred (those who are not still hiding their dismal sales), Subaru in particular broke its amazing 93 month consecutive sales rises, all others had single and double digit drops, and the “big” 3 have still not reported, even though they are now supposed to (3rd quarter!) I bet if they had good news they would be the first to report, early yesterday, as other makers usually do when they got good sales #s.

  43. Larry D. Says:

    https://www.freep.com/in-depth/money/cars/ford/2019/07/11/ford-focus-fiesta-transmission-defect/1671198001/

    a lot of noise here every time there is an item about VW cheating on its emissions, but if you were an actual OWNER, which would bother you 1,000 times more, cheating on the emissions, which did you no harm, OR having a defective transmission in your FORD, which could well KILL you AND your family?

    (it’s a rhetorical question)

  44. Larry D. Says:

    35 Give me a break. You really believe that Apples cost double what PCs cost because they are,… more reliable? LAUGHABLE. I have used PCs and Apples over 35 years now, and there is ZERO difference in reliability. People pay more because they are more convenient to use, allegedly. However, I am missing NONE of the Apple features when I use my over 5 year old IBM PC (made in CHina, Lenovo brand) which I bought for a mere $400, DVD drive and all, 15.6″ screen, perfect in every way, and so are my two HP destops, one of which is now over 10 years old, and never had to replace even a battery. And note that the Laptop fell on the hard floor when the strap of its carrying case broke, and I fixed it for free here, only had to buy the $30 plastic shell of it on the web.

  45. Ryan Gerardi Says:

    Can you let us know where the information about EV running costs was sourced? Thanks.

  46. Larry D. Says:

    35 and PS, repetition is the mother of learning, I have told you this before, if you really are serious about a fair cost comparison, you will compare NONE of what you say, but the LIFE CYCLE COSTS of the alternatives instead. And I have ALSO told you many times that you did not save a DIME by going EV, and especially given what you said about being on fixed income, a Corolla or a used Prius would save you TENS of thousands of $ compared with owning the i3 and the Model 3. SO please don’t think we are clueless econ illiterates, be FRANK with YOURSELF above all, and stop bragging about the few cents you saved on fuel. You bought the EVS because you LIKED them and DESPITE the economic sacrifices you had to make, PERIOD, end of discussion.

  47. Kit Gerhart Says:

    43 If I had one of the cheater diesels, I’d feel guilty about driving it, if in a place where the high NOx emissions mattered, like in southern CA. I still wouldn’t like that they did the cheating, but where I live, the actual emissions wouldn’t matter much, and I’d just keep it for however long I’d keep it otherwise. I think the “buyout” worked out to be a good deal for some people, but I know someone in Indiana who has a Jetta TDI wagon and likes it, and plans to keep it for as long as it keeps going.

    As far as the Ford DSG, “powershift” in Ford-speak, that would be a big problem if it shifted into neutral unexpectedly, etc. I drove an early one, and it worked pretty well, except for being hard to drive smoothly at low speed, but they obviously have problems. Here is an interesting British forum about them, with varied experiences.

    https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1664473

  48. Kit Gerhart Says:

    44 I use a Mac because it is convenient to use, for what I do with it. One advantage Macs have over Windows machines, is that the software seems to be supported forever. I still get free OS updates for my ~10 year old Mac. Most versions of Windows are supported for only a few years. Of course, you can always buy a newer version of Windows, if you want a newer version.

  49. Larry D. Says:

    47 I’ve ever paid a dime over the purchase price of my laptop. My desktops were free and had 100% free service too, even the one I have at home. They are all supported from our computer center.

    Anybody who buys an Apple i-phone, in particular, those costing over $1,100, is probably paying 10 times what it COSTS apple to make them in whatever fourth world sweatshop they make them.

  50. Larry D. Says:

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-could-be-the-next-gold-mine-for-tesla-and-other-electric-vehicles-2019-10-02?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo

    Is Tesla charging twice what your utility charges when you use its superchargers? So it makes 100% profit on it?

  51. Larry D. Says:

    https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/tesla-aims-start-china-production-month-report-says

    Will start this month with ‘at least 1,000 a week’. The Gigafactory can make 250,000 a year, I believe, and the Chinese market can buy 10 times that, IMO, in just a few years.

  52. Lambo2015 Says:

    35 Bob even using the inflated numbers you provided (I say inflated because that’s high mileage for 6 months) but even still that Equates to a $1550 yearly savings in fuel. For normal 12 to 15k miles a year it would be more like $850 but with an EV costing 20K more than a comparable ICE car you’ll break even in 13 years. Normal mileage driving would break even in 23.5 years. Toss in a battery surly after 13 years and the EV just never offers a savings.

    Hey its not all bad it seems like you love the cars and tracking the mileage, that’s all that really matters. Glad your happy with your purchase just don’t try and convince me or others there is any savings involved in buying an EV. They are being subsidised and not taxed the same in most places and that will soon change too.

    To me its kind of like buying a Yeti cooler. You can buy a lot of ice for the cost difference but maybe where you going, ice isn’t readily available and a 7 day cooler makes sense. For the most who only need it to stay cold for a day or two the cooler at 1/10 the price works. All in what makes you happy man.

  53. Larry D. Says:

    “The plant, which Tesla says will be simplified and more cost-effective than its existing Model 3 line, will have 500,000 units of annual capacity when the second phase is completed, doubling from initial phase capacity of 250,000 vehicles.”

    Actually the plant will make TWICE the already huge 250,000 I thought in 51.

    Remember in Shanghai and other big (huge) Chinese Cities, the license fee for an EV is ZERO while for an ICE it’s $15,000 US!

  54. Lambo2015 Says:

    51 So is Musk taking pre-orders/deposits in China like he did here in the US?
    Havent heard any news like that or if they will have back orders to fill. Maybe cannot do that in China I’m not sure if he can. I bet if he could he certainly would.

  55. Bob WIlson Says:

    Sorry “Lambo2015,” I have the actual facts and data … the receipts and EV costs. Your fantasies are not my problem.

    Our Model 3 remains quite affordable in large part because of the $18,300 trade-in of our Prius Prime and remains a joy to drive especially with AutoPilot (see web link.) So my wife and family did several long distance trips to Kansas, Texas, and Mississippi, quite affordable trips.

    In couple of hours, I’ll drive 116 mi each way to the “Damn Yankees Oyster Bar” in Heflin and bring back takeout for my wife. It’ll cost about $5.80 in electricity reduced by the free charging I’ll get at the restaurant. Growing up in Oklahoma, long distance trips are fairly common.

    BTW, “PERIOD, end of discussion” is your problem, not mine.

  56. Lambo2015 Says:

    Bob I think your confused. You cannot say the price of your EV is comparable to a ICE when your using a trade in. Its like saying I put 18K down but that doesn’t count toward the purchase price. I really hope you are not implying that as I know your smarter than that.

    You are right and my fantasies are not your problem but Id bet you would enjoy them. My point was please do not post bologna cost savings here creating a fantasy for others in thinking there is a savings with an EV.
    Also the PERIOD end of discussion is not anything I have every posted that is LARRY.

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