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Runtime: 9:50
0:00 China EV Price War Picking Up Speed
1:09 Fisker On the Ropes
2:19 GM Cruise Loses Half Its Value
3:04 Car Dealers Don’t Like Hyundai, Amazon Deal
3:54 Kia U.S. EV Sales Soar 65%
5:13 Fiat Panda Gets New Lease on Life as EV Sales Slow
6:03 Bugatti Dumps W16, Goes with PHEV V16
7:00 Ford Developing 800V Battery System
7:52 Vertical Integration? Legacy OEMs Rely More on Suppliers
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This is Autoline Daily, the show dedicated to enthusiasts of the global automotive industry.
CHINA EV PRICE WAR PICKING UP SPEED
That price war in China shows no signs of slowing down. Last week BYD cut prices 10% and today Tesla is following suit. It’s offering insurance subsidies which essentially take the price of the Model 3 and Y down by 3%. Some paint colors get a price cut of almost $1,400. Remember, it was just a little over a month ago that Tesla cut the 3 by almost 6% and the Y by almost 3%, so these price cuts are starting to stack up. EV sales in China took a nosedive in January, and last month was the celebration of the Chinese New Year, where the entire country shuts down for at least a week. So, no doubt sales fell even further. Now everyone is watching to see if this was just a temporary dip, or if it’s a sign of something more serious. One thing’s for sure, this price war is not going to end anytime soon.
FISKER ON THE ROPES
And here’s more trouble in EV startup land. Fisker is on the ropes and may not make it to this time next year. The company only has $325 million in cash and over $540 million in expenses. Worse, its books are a mess, and it has failed to file its financial earnings on time all year long. Fisker claims it’s in negotiations with a large automaker that could result in an investment in the automaker, or the joint development of an EV platform, and a manufacturing location in North America. In his message to shareholders, Henrik Fisker blamed a host of outside factors for the company’s problems. But the basic problem is that it’s struggling to build and deliver the Ocean SUV. Fisker only built 10,000 vehicles last year and delivered less than half to customers. Here’s our Autoline Insight. Fisker probably won’t get enough cash in time. And we think anyone who is interested in picking up the pieces will wait to see if the company goes bankrupt, then buy all the assets for pennies on the dollar.
GM CRUISE LOSES HALF ITS VALUE
And in more bad financial news, the Wall Street Journal reports that GM Cruise has lost half of its value. Citing an internal document, it says Cruise’s private stock was worth $24 a share just a little over three months ago, but now it’s only worth $11. GM Cruise pretty much stopped its operations after an accident in which one of its autonomous cars dragged a pedestrian. It had planned to expand its taxi service to a dozen U.S. cities this year, but now it’s going to take a lot longer to do that. And until it resumes operations and starts generating profits, that stock valuation is not going to go anywhere.
CAR DEALERS DON’T LIKE HYUNDAI, AMAZON DEAL
Last year, Hyundai formed a partnership with Amazon to allow car buyers in the U.S. to shop and purchase vehicles on Amazon’s website starting this year. And not surprisingly, an Automotive News survey of dealers at multiple brands found they’re not happy with the deal. Dealers are concerned it will lead to a more direct sales model, won’t be good for long-term customer service and will impact their profits by cutting into the finance and insurance business and customer trade-ins. But some dealers were dismissive of the deal and not concerned, with one dealer calling it a “gimmick.” Amazon wants to partner with other automakers to offer a similar buying process. So if Hyundai buyers like the experience, we could see more brands partner up with Amazon.
KIA U.S. EV SALES SOAR 65%
And speaking of Hyundai and car sales, the Group, including Kia and Genesis, announced February sales in the U.S. Hyundai sold more than 55,000 vehicles, a gain of 5% compared to a year ago. Meanwhile, Kia sold just over 59,000 vehicles, which was down about 3%. And Genesis sold 4,600 vehicles, up 9%. Hyundai and Kia’s EV sales are going strong. Hyundai sold 5,000 hybrid, PHEV and EV models in February, which was up 7%. Kia sold 2,627 EV6 and EV9’s last month but it doesn’t break out Niro sales, which is offered as an ICE, PHEV and Pure electric. But Kia says its total EV sales are up 65% so far this year. Automakers will report February sales over the next several days but analysts expect sales to be up 5-6%.
FIAT PANDA GETS NEW LEASE ON LIFE AS EV SALES SLOW
With EV demand slowing I think we could see more of what Fiat is doing with the Panda. It’s extending the current model’s life and upgrading it with new technology. Fiat says the Panda will continue to be made in Italy at least until 2027 and it’s giving the updated model, which it calls Pandina, new ADAS features, two 7-inch digital display screens and a new steering wheel. I’ve got to imagine that this is a relatively cheap and easy upgrade for the brand. The basis for the Panda’s architecture traces its roots back to 1999 and the last major update on the model was done in 2011. Typically, limited model changes lead to a decline in sales, but Fiat says it’s boosting production of the Pandina by about 20% to meet demand.
BUGATTI DUMPS W16, GOES WITH PHEV V16
I remember pretty well my mind being blown the first time I read about the Bugatti Veyron. A 16-cylinder engine with 4 turbochargers, nearly 1,000 horsepower, 250 + MPH top speed and a million dollar plus price tag. There was nothing else like it when it debuted in 2005. But Bugatti is killing off that famous 16-cylinder engine and replacing it with another 16-cylinder engine. However, instead of the cylinder being arranged in a W-pattern, the new engine is a V-16. We know it will also be paired with a plug-in hybrid system and as you can see, the intake makes extensive use of carbon fiber. But that’s about all the details we have on the new engine that will power the successor to the Chiron, which is supposed to debut in June.
FORD DEVELOPING 800V BATTERY SYSTEM
Ford has at least considered coming out with a battery system that sounds similar to GM’s Ultium pack. At its base, GM’s system is 400-volts, but models with bigger batteries, like the Hummer EV, essentially have two 400-volt packs, which can be paired together during charging for an 800-volt system, so it can charge at a faster rate. And Ford filed a patent for a multi-voltage system that has two separate battery arrays capable of operating at 800 volts during charging. It’s possible we could see Ford implement this soon because it filed the patent four years ago. But a lot has changed in four years and Ford now has a skunkworks program working on more affordable EVs, so it’s possible the multi-voltage system isn’t part of the plan anymore.
VERTICAL INTEGRATION? LEGACY OEMs RELY MORE ON SUPPLIERS
Despite all the talk about automakers needing to get more vertically integrated, the opposite is happening. Legacy automakers are actually relying more on their suppliers to develop new designs. On Autoline After Hours yesterday, Jeff Stout from Yanfeng, said that automakers are not just looking to suppliers for new ideas, they want them to take over doing everything, at least when it comes to vehicle interiors.
Jeff Stout: “In the last couple of years, a fairly significant part of my budget comes from the customer. They call me and say, ‘Can I give you some money so you can develop this solution for me?’
John McElroy: “Have you ever had a car company do that before?”
Jeff Stout: “No, never, ever, ever, ever; whereas now we don’t do development unless the customer is willing to say, ‘I’m willing to pay for it.’”
You can watch that entire show right now on our website and YouTube channel. And it gives you great insight into what automakers want from their suppliers, and how suppliers have to deal with it.
But that’s the end of this show. Thanks for tuning in and I hope that you have a great weekend.
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I remember being stunned when I saw the yearly mandatory maintenance costs of a Bugatti Veyron. It is the only vehicle that can bankrupt millionaires which is why they are sold so frequently or just never driven.
The amazon sales deal is reminiscent of the era where cars were sold in the sears catalog. Maybe history will repeat itself. History usually does.
You can already buy vehicles through Costco. So, this Amazon sales model could really take off.
I think Tesla price cuts are no different than other automakers having manufacturer rebates/incentives when sales slow or inventory is high. It’s not broadcast as a price cut because with having dealerships, the actual price is always fluctuating and rarely ever the MSRP. Its more hidden. With Tesla being a direct sales model, the price is very evident, and they don’t seem to offer rebates. Which makes their price cuts very open to the public.
But yes, it does appear sales are slowing enough that a price cut is an attempt to spur sales.
Sean- It would be cool if you guys did an update of the three wheeled EV market. So many of those companies have stalled or failed and who knows how many are actually left and selling cars/bikes. I’m most interested in this segment as a work commuter vehicle as I don’t see an EV working for me otherwise. If the price was right, I would seriously consider one. So, needs to be sold in the US too.
I remember Sears selling re-badged Henry J cars and Vespa scooters under the Allstate name. A high school class mate had an Allstate scooter, probably 1963. I think Sears also sold some European mopeds. Montgomery Wards sold Lambretta scooters and some mopeds under the Riverside name.
Dealers are involved with the Costco car sales. My sister bought a Subaru Forester that way.
I yesterday I wanted to comment of the “speed control”, but didn’t get a chance to. What is funny to me is, in California, where many of the rich and famous live, who buy expensive, fast, exotic vehicles that can do 0-to-60 in only 2 to 3 seconds. The state is looking at having GPS enforced ‘limiters’, that will only allow them to drive 10 miles over the speed limit! Hi-lar-i-ous!!
Fisker can’t seem to catch a break with the car companies named after him! I was hoping that the new one would go the distance, but it seems his newest maybe on the ropes. I wonder who the “major OEM” that’s interested in investing/partnering up with him? Is/might it be the same company that purchased his last one, after it went into bankruptcy?
The thing about the Bugatti W16 that added to its specialness, was that it was so compact! VW’s engines that had their cylinders arranged in a “W” and “VR” configuration, were designed to fit in an engine bay that was smaller then the unit that was classically used in various applications. The 6 cylinder VR6 could fit in what would normally be a compact 4 cylinder application. A W8 would fit in an midsize V6 engine bay and a W10 would fit in a full size V8 space! The W16 would fit in the space of V12 and when compared to the length of 12 cylinders from Mercedes and BMW, I think the 16 seemed a little shorter then them, in pictures anyway. The W16 was miles wider then those V12’s, thats for sure!
That’s why I’m a little surprised that the new power plant is now a V16, for its length alone would make for a rather long-ish vehicle, to hold all of that engine! When you look how much vehicle there is behind the seats of the Lamborghini Adventador with is V12. Then add another foot, foot and a half, two foot to the rear of that car! It may start to take on the look and have the appearance of those racing boats, you see on the Detroit River and other places! While I’m sure that the styling will be incredibly, I can’t see how it will be as relatively compact as the original Veyron was. That said, versions of the Chiron had become pretty long anyway, to be able to set that ground speed records, so it might might be a mute point.
Yeah, that V16 will probably be made from two VW/Audi V8s end to end, and will be long. Maybe they thought they had reached the limit of what they can do with the W engines and maintain reliability, not that anyone actually drives those cars.
I had a GTI VR6 that was a cool car, except for reliability and gas mileage. It was a 1998 with the two valve VR6. That engine was really compact for a 2.8 litre six.
Kit — Yes, I think they are doing away with the current W16 for the same reasons, that it has either been developed as far as it can be and, with tighten emissions regulations, the cost to meet them would have been excruciating for such a limited run product. It makes me wonder about the immediate future of the Bentley W12 as well! With that brand going the BEV route it might not matter, but with the push back of EU ICE band, while the W12 could have a longer life, would it be worth the investment, especially with so much of their funds already directed toward electrification? Only time will tell.
Crazy! I just saw an article on AutoCar.co.uk, that the mystery OEM looking to invest in Fisker, is Nissan!
I don’t know much about the most recent Fisker product, the the first one, the Karma was pretty bad. It was a plug-in hybrid with limited electric range, and then on gas, being purely series, it got awful gas mileage, and the engine was poorly isolated from the cabin. Oh, and it was pricey. Maybe Nissan got them almost for free, and can do something with Fisker.
Kit — I think the old Fisker company was purchased by a large Chinese auto parts company and renamed it Karma and has (had?) plans to build their own EVs. In reading the AutoCar article, it said that Nissan was looking to invest so that they could get access to Fisker’s EV truck. Fisker was in negotiations with FoxxConn to build it, but backed out as a result of talks with Nissan. I know that FoxxConn was supposed to build Fisker’s Pear EV, but I was hard to tell if they had backed out of that too, from that way it was reported, or that I miss understood.
Almost the same car as the Fisker Karma was re-introduced a few years later as Karma Revero. It was a big car with a tiny cabin, 197 inches long, but classified a subcompact car by the EPA, like a two door Mini, based on cabin volume.
I remain fascinated with VR6s. Didn’t know that the V6 is a post-war design, first introduced by Lancia in 1950 with the Aurelia sedan. Oh, and the likes of Fieros and Peugeot 205s now count as classic cars:
https://www.motortrend.com/news/retromobile-coolest-classic-cars-paris-france-2024/
Sean, that’s interesting. I had no idea that V6 engines were not mass produced until 1950. It sort of makes sense, though. V6 engines are basically flawed. Without “band aids” like balance shafts and splayed crank pins, they are odd firing and/or poorly balanced. Their compact packaging has made V6s very common in more recent decades, but the length of in-line 6s was not much of an issue when nearly all cars were front engine, rear drive, and extra engine length didn’t matter much.
When it comes to crankshaft balancing the I6 is about the best design there is. Which is why I never understood why Ford didn’t go back to the strait 6 when they decided to eco-boost everything. Maybe because they wanted twin turbos but that could be done on a strait 6 too.
I suspect Ford went the the V6 turbos, because they’d be better for packaging in transverse applications, like Taurus/MKS for a while, Edge/MKX/Nautilus, etc. Volvo and Mazda have used some I6 engines in transverse applications, but I suspect the engines might be “compromised” a little to make them short.
Maybe Mazda hasn’t transversely mounted I6 engines. The six in the CX-90 is longitudinally mounted.
Kit- Back in the day Ford sent me a development vehicle. It was actually a Ford Tempo with a strait 8 mounted transversely. They actually pulled power from the crank center as it was still RWD. Strange configuration that obviously never went anywhere.
Interesting. That was a very unusual Tempo, and it must have been a small straight 8. Also, being rear drive would have been special, as regular Tempos were front drive, though some were AWD.
The most recent one off straight 8 I’d heard of was in the Chrysler Atlantic. That engine was made from two Neon engines end to end, but was mounted longitudinally.