AD #3258 – “Freedom Convoy” Closes Car Plants; Where OEMs Will Get the Billions to Invest in EVs; Alfa Romeo Styling Lessons

February 10th, 2022 at 11:55am

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Listen to “AD #3258 – "Freedom Convoy" Closes Car Plants; Where OEMs Will Get the Billions to Invest in EVs; Alfa Romeo Styling Lessons” on Spreaker.

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Runtime: 9:37

0:07 So-Called “Freedom Convoy” Closes Car Plants
1:03 Volvo Investigating Structural Batteries
2:12 Where OEMs Will Get the Billions to Invest in EVs
3:30 Elon Musk Pads His Resume
4:02 U.S. to Prioritize Highway Charging Stations
5:16 Nissan Takes Attention Grabbing Frontiers to Chicago
6:24 Alfa Romeo Tonale Styling Lessons
7:41 Cadillac Returning to LeMans with Beautiful Race Car
8:08 Ford Bronco Everglades Gets Factory Snorkel
8:50 Ford Teases Next-Gen Ranger Raptor

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75 Comments to “AD #3258 – “Freedom Convoy” Closes Car Plants; Where OEMs Will Get the Billions to Invest in EVs; Alfa Romeo Styling Lessons”

  1. Kit Gerhart Says:

    Are the anarchist truck drivers mostly/entirely Canadian, or are US, or maybe Mexican drivers making trouble up there?

  2. S65AMG Says:

    A. The so-called “freedom Convoy” is a bunch of imbeciles, 50-75 total, who are opposed to the Canadian Vaccination mandate. I wish the US had one of its own, BTW. Canada has lost a TINY amount of its citizens to COVID while the US is approaching a MILLION DEATHS (YES, I have to write this in caps, since we don’t have bold or underline or even italics), most of them under the incompetent Biden Admin, who has the right policy but TERRIBLE Communication skills. And BTW, the Trump Adminisrtration deserves a Nobel Peace Prize (no kidding either, and, unlike Obama’s, a well DESERVED one), for the successful “warp Speed” initiative that was Instrumental in making the Vaccines available in RECORD time, and saving millions of lives around the world.

    Back to the topic, isn’t it ironic that the “Legacy” automakers, both the Detroit Dinosaurs but also the Successful ones like Toyota and Honda, all will suffer because of these idiots on the bridge, while TESLA seems to be unaffected by any of the crises that crippled the allegedly wise, experienced “legacy” makers? THINK before you reply to this, geniuses.

  3. Wim van Acker Says:

    @Truckers protesting vaccine mandates to get the economy moving by blocking the main corridor for trade between Canada and the U.S. There may be logic behind it, but I don’t get it.

  4. Kit Gerhart Says:

    When/if car inventories start to “get back to normal,” won’t car companies need to have intermittent massive layoffs if they want to keep inventories low, and avoid using rebates, etc.?

  5. S65AMG Says:

    B. Volvo keeps aping Tesla. What else is new?

    C. Where will the ‘legacy’ makers find the billions to invest in EVs? Especially since they seem to abandon their cash cows, ICE pickups for Ford and ICE SUVs for GM?

    A safe bet is my pocket, given the incompetents in Detroit AND in Washington DC. And your pocket, in the unlikely case that you have had as much success as I have.

    But a tougher question is, who will buy the POS compliance BEVS the consumer will not want? They will not dare outlaw ICEs, new and esp used. They sure will try to make the life of ICE owners difficult, but they will pay in the next election, so scrap that.

    Anybody said Bankruptcy 2.0? Coming soon to a theater near you?

  6. Wim van Acker Says:

    @2 the winning vaccines Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna have never been part of Operation Warp Speed.

    Operation Warp Speed was the right thing to do because it was not possible to predict the outcome and it was good a decision was made. But in hindsight it was $12.8 billion wasted. Again, I am glad it was done, because we could not take the risk of not spending it.

  7. Ron Paris Says:

    So the difference in OEMs spending the same number of billions to develop EVs as they would have to develop ICEs is that ICEs have a proven market in which the average consumer can afford to buy the product and there is an established infrastructure which supports that purchase. Details Sean, details! IMO, you have to be crazy to be an investor in the auto industry these days.

  8. S65AMG Says:

    D. Inventories. How many times did I object to John’s quoting that urban legend, the “60 day inventory” as “optimal”? And it is not that I have proven it is not, it was TOYOTA, 30 years ago, when they launched the lean Revolution, and spread it to the rest of the industry (but not to the Detroit Dinosaurs, whose sick agreements with the corruptos in the UAW made it pointless to reduce production, since they still had to pay the workers for not working!)

    Do you remember whenever I would mention How Toyota made billions, and its stock was worth 6 TIMES the value of GM, despite selling fewer vehicles?

    The usual reply from the GM apologists was that they did not care, because it was the dealers that pay the inventory costs (and they covered up the fact that GM would pay the dealers extra to move the junk they overproduced and the consumer did not want)

    Only when the COVID pandemic hit them on their empty heads and drastically reduced the inventories, due to the shutdowns and the chip shortage, did these dinosaurs get wise and see the obvious…

    I hope they have now learned their lesson, and I never hear anybody in the future claim, with a straight face, that “60 day inventory is optimal” when Lexus and Toyota were making fortunes with TWENTY and FORTY day inventories.

  9. Kit Gerhart Says:

    6 Yep, any administration would have thrown money at developing the vaccines when the pandemic arrived. Of course, most would not have denied for weeks or months that a pandemic existed.

  10. Kit Gerhart Says:

    7 Won’t companies just be spending their development money on EVs, while they continue to make existing “cash cow” ICE trucks and SUVs? Won’t they just make the current generation ICE vehicles longer, and with fewer changes than might normally be the case?

  11. S65AMG Says:

    And a leftover from my earlier post and a reply to it. I typed it yesterday and somehow I lost the text.

    A few days ago I posted about Pulitzer winning Auto Writer Dan Neil’s article extolling the new Toyota Sienna Hybrid, and asking Toyota where was this excellent vehicle, that would give MILLIONS of Large Families a break (especially with today’s fuel prices), 15 years ago, when he had twin kids growing up.

    Inmstead of appreciating this excellent vehicle which helps so many millions of people, and not just a few spoiled eccentrics, what did Kit say about it? He made a comparisomn with his much smaller inside, very underpowered Camry Hybrid, (158 HP for a 4,000 lb car. I know very well what this means. My 2822 lb (only!) Accord Coupe with its 2.2 lt 125 HP engine, and despite its 5-sp smooth shifting manual, was PATHETIC in even trying to climb a modest hill, it had to be done in a very noisy and annoying low gear, and especially when I drove up the tall mountains around LA, Barstow etc, it really was struggling).

    So back to Kit’s objections, instead of appreciating the excellent, full size, fuel efficent minivan, he made, for the 1000th time, his complaint about the demise of station wagons.

    OK Kit, let’s talk about that. WHo Killed the Station Wagon? YOU DID (!!!).

    Why? because the SUV did NOT kill the wagon in 1995. It was the Chrysler – Dodge MINIVAN in 1984 that killed the obsolete wagons of the 70s, and they sure deserved to kill it, they were far more intelligent designs, and they sold like crazy, helping Chrysler come out of bankruptcy.

    Why YOU? Because YOU actually bought the wagon-killing Minivan instead of a Wagon.

    And it is not just this.

    How often (it seems like 1000s of times as well) do you rant and rave here about the demise of the Manual TRansmission? Even though in 2022 (and even in 2012) Autos have become so much better than before, the Manual advantages have disappeared).

    How can you protest the demise of the Manual, and then go buy AUTOMATIC Corvette (the C7, also the C8? What about the Cayman? was it manual because you bought it used and could not make it auto too?)

    Isn’t it incredibly hypocritical when you keep protesting the death of this and that, when you with your own actions, along with many other buyers, have killed them?

    Not to mention that the CHinese Water Torture of mentioning the same gripe again and again and again does not make this site a very interesting read (the comment section)?

  12. Lambo2015 Says:

    The Freedom Convoy goes beyond a peaceful protest. I fully support the fact that people have the right to protest and should when they feel they are not being heard by the folks that represent us. But much like the fools that walked onto the freeways and blocked roads last years or so, that is more than a protest.
    When you potentially start to alter commerce and the freedoms of others its a problem. When your trying to get to a hospital and cannot because someone is protesting its a problem.

    The real question is, how serious is the injustice before you need something more than a protest? I don’t think they seriously want to over throw the government or have a real insurrection. But its obviously gotten to the point they don’t feel their voices are being heard. It really places the police in a tough spot because yea they are being peaceful but clearing the roads and bridges may ignite violence. How hard will they push or push back?

    Could get real ugly if Kent state taught us anything..

  13. Marshy Says:

    The asshats at the boarder and in the major cities exhibiting civil disobedience need to go and deserve everything that’s coming to them. No govt should bow to civil disobedience by a few as a form of democracy. License plate pictures and civil liability for tort damages should do nicely. I saw this as a Canadian.

  14. Chevydude Says:

    the truckers blocking the bridge may not help the cause, the cause is fighting covid mandates, so let’s just make a distinction here. Even when Black lives matter activists burn buildings and destroy property, nobody questions the cause against racism, right?

  15. wmb Says:

    As I have read, one of the things that add incredible expense to the development of ICEs is emissions regulatory compliance equipment. So getting away from the emissions requirements in the vehicles and getting their assembly plants and those of their suppliers to carbon neutral, with money that they planned to spend anyway, is win-win for OEMs!

  16. Gavin Smith Says:

    There is no nice way to get rid of the over reaching regulations affecting the truckers who deliver the parts to the car plants and all other citizens of the Canada and the U.S.. I agree it is difficult on car plants and all their workers BUT there is no going along with the Draconian rules and regulations imposed over the civil rights of all citizens. The way you bring it to an end is to make it untennable to continue. If the Canadian PM did his job and talked to those involved in Canada this would be over and quickly but he refuses to engage. Similar foolishness is going on in the U.S.. The people to be mad at are the politicians that won’t respond to their constituants, not the truckers who in desperation are demanding change. Governments who feel they can inflict whatever strikes them as a good idea on people who have the civil rights that are being overun in the supposed name of public safety deserve to suffer the consequences.

  17. JWH Says:

    Will be interesting to see if the OEM’s can actually control their inventory levels in the future. It seems like numerous times over the past 55 years they over produce when sales slow down leading to the much > 60 day inventory level. Then we hear how they are going to control levels much leaner in the future, only to revert back to the higher levels when sales slow.

  18. Norm T Says:

    S65, lay off the free crack pipe. You have had enough for today. Go write your state and local representatives who act like they care!

  19. Kit Gerhart Says:

    11 I’ll get to the point, and try to avoid responding to you in the future. For a start, you don’t know shit about Toyota hybrids. The Camry hybrid, Sienna, and Highlander hybrid all have essentially the same powertrain, using a 2.5 liter 4. The van and CUV have a little more power than the Camry, 245 hp vs 208 hp, which is needed to get nearly equal performance in the heavier vehicles. BTW, the Camry hybrid weighs 3505 pounds, Sienna 4585 pounds, and Highlander hybrid, 4455 pounds. The Camry is the quickest of the three, by a small margin, in CR’s tests.

    I bought my 1989 van 33 years ago, before I, or anyone else was on a “fuel economy kick” for a daily driver. I killed the wagon by buying one van? Get serious. Yeah, by the time I wanted a replacement, wagons were essentially gone.

    Regarding my Cayman, I made it a point to find one with a manual transmission, because that was what I wanted. As with Toyota hybrids, you don’t know much about why I buy certain cars, or why the cars I buy might change over a 30 year period.

  20. Danny T Says:

    Anytime there’s a protest or a strike there’s innocent people that suffer financially, I just think the whole world has gotten off tilt we have so many problems that need fix, but until the people in Washington D. C. Learn to work together it’s not going to get better, only worse I’m afraid. There’s enough blame for both political parties it’s not all 1 parties fault.

  21. Buzzerd Says:

    @16- “ draconian rules” ? Give it a break, they are required to get a vaccine. Also I don’t think a government should speak to a group of thugs that have taken over a city waving confederate flags and Nazi symbols.

  22. walter hanisch Says:

    Right on Gavin,
    Our useless PM is pulling a Biden and hiding in his basement afraid to talk to the truckers.
    I am sure the convoy is not trying to shut down anyone and just want to have a meaningful conversation. Most are vaccinated so the main issue are the mandates that are not based on science but on political science.

  23. Kevin A Says:

    In the last Canadian election, COVID response was one of the major issues. Even though the antivaxxers and anti-maskers LOST the election, they are not willing to cooperate with the majority or even to wait for the next election to forcefully express their opinion again. This is not the Canadian way, but it is the way we see every night on US TV, which we also get in Canada.

  24. Common Sense Says:

    “we don’t think you have the freedom to start shutting down car plants and hurting other people’s livelihoods.”
    So, its not ok to affect peoples livelihoods by shutting down a bridge, but it is ok to affect peoples livelihoods by forcing them to take a vaccine that’s not fully vetted according to historical medical standards and also shutdown many businesses across the country by implementing COVID mandates. When the government shut down the borders for citizens did you have anything to say about peoples freedoms, rights and livelihoods being affected?
    Is it freedom your concerned with or just appeasing the automotive viewer base you have. You hold a very strange view point especially considering the Vaccine doesn’t protect against the spread of COVID according to the manufacturers and the “science”, but yet your ok with the government forcing people to inject it into their bloodstream. Also, your news center is in he US, so I’m guessing the Canadians don’t really give a rip about your opinion on their freedoms.

  25. walter hanisch Says:

    BTW the was one flag showing a German symbol and a confederate sign. These fools always show up at rallies either on their own or by design.

  26. Kit Gerhart Says:

    16 It’s unfortunate that there is a shortage of qualified truck drivers. If there were people to hire, the drivers who refuse to get vaccinated could just be fired and replaced. Unfortunately, it’s not that simple.

  27. Kevin A Says:

    ps to Larry. Tesla is not affected because they don’t manufacture cars in the countries they are sold in, except for US, & China. At least GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and Honda do manufacture in Canada. Please note that Canada does not have any ‘domestic’ car companies. They were all sold to US companies nearly 100 years ago.

  28. Lambo2015 Says:

    17 Sales guys are taught to strike while the iron is hot. When you have a person in the showroom ready to buy you want to have product available to complete the sale right then. The buyer can be fickle and require certain options and particular color, when spending 30+K have every right to get exactly what options they want. That’s typically what drove the 60 day inventory.
    If you notice Toyota kinda forced buyers to limit their options. They had a few trim levels and typically every color in each trim level. When you do that, a dealership may only need 20-30 versions of a vehicle. 3 trim levels and 6 different colors and with 18 models you have everything covered.
    I’m sure they would like everyone to order vehicles like Tesla so no inventory is really necessary. However not everyone can or will wait a few weeks or months to get their new vehicle.

  29. ChuckGrenci Says:

    I think the truckers protest could have gotten the same amount of press had they just parked them rigs around city hall or some other government building. I don’t get shutting down a part of the economy and leaving the ‘common’ folk footing so much of the bill.

    My take on manufacturers maintaining a low volume inventory is, that as production resumes, so will the varying number of days inventory we’ve always seen. I’m beginning to see incentives returning on certain vehicles, in advertising, in my area.

  30. MJB Says:

    I support the truckers. No other collective group of people in Canada has been successful in standing up to Trudeau’s unethical mandates and getting him to take notice (and, yes, any mandate of the sort in any country is equally unethical – including the U.S.). Unfair policies don’t get reversed by just sitting by quietly and longing for the days of old.

    Peaceful protests are great, but until they are coupled with non-violent actions that have measurable impact, they only serve as an emotional outlet for those marching. Without tying up a nations resources, why would leadership even take such a protest seriously. This is why sanctions work so effectively in foreign policy. [notice I advocated for no violence whatsoever in my statement, lest anyone be tempted to say I am inciting insurrection]

    But the issue with some seems to be that they want everyone to just lay down and ‘take it’. Certain people are fine with being told what to do, and not questioning the reasons why they are being told to do it. This is the slippery slope that leads to communism and dictatorships. “Just shut the &*$% up and take that jab” did not used to be how American’s thought. It wasn’t until 2 years ago, when many got brainwashed into thinking a virus that has about the same morbidity rate as the common flu is so dangerous that we all must go around wearing face muzzles with no end in sight and getting shot up with a drug created in just 9 months that would otherwise have taken 6 years. Many of us are even accepting of the lie that even the portion of the population that is least at risk, our school-aged kids, should be face muzzled for 8 hours each day. We’ve devolved into people that despise those who hold freedom dear, applaud those who want to give more of it away.

    This trucker convoy is not entirely about Covid (which is clearly evidenced by the fact that 90% of the truckers have already taken the jab). It is about freedom – something people in these parts used to believe in.

  31. Kit Gerhart Says:

    27 Toyota won’t let customers order cars. Yes, I know, as one who has been to enough different dealers to be pretty sure they aren’t all lying about it.

  32. Lambo2015 Says:

    25 Yeah That’s exactly what we want. Our government to dictate things to the public and if you don’t comply then you should be fired.
    Maybe they’ll decide we have too many boomers retiring and need to euthanize a few to save SS and you’ll agree to that too?

  33. XA351GT Says:

    Marshy, The US wouldn’t exist if it hadn’t been for civil disobedience.

  34. Kit Gerhart Says:

    33 The US might be better off if still one of the colonies, or part of the Commonwealth, like Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. In some ways, parliamentary governments work better than the US system, with the entire national government being on the “same page” after each election.

  35. Albemarle Says:

    Protest and demonstrate – yes, rip off masks, honk horns all night, block roads – no.

    No logic, no respect for anyone or anything. I think they are blockading because they have so little trucking support. They are trying to punish the working trucker. No idea why we don’t do anything about it. We may have a small army but if we are willing to help Ukraine, perhaps we could practice with these idiots.

  36. Barry Rector Says:

    The Alfa design doesn’t look much different than the other CUV’s. Sorry Alfa!

  37. Wayne Says:

    The so-called trucker protests here in Canada are not actually supported by most truckers. They have mainly been co-opted by right leaning political groups with some truck drivers being willing participants. The presence of Trump flags and former members of the “Trump Team” at the protest in our nation’s capital shows who is actually behind it all. They are supposedly protesting vaccine mandates by our federal government to cross the border when the U.S. won’t let them in anyway unless they are fully vaccinated. Just proves the idiocy of those involved.

  38. XA351GT Says:

    Kit, I would suggest asking a Kiwi and Aussie how happy they are with their governance. I’ll give you a hint they are not. Aussies are being treated like criminals with the lockdown BS and if they had firearms would probably be ready to remove the power brokers from office. Kiwi’s didn’t fair much better. So crappy government isn’t unique to the US.

  39. Alex Carazan Says:

    CANADIAN TRUCKERS FOR FREEDOM OF CHOICE AND AGAINST GOVERNMENT TYRANNY: You may not like truckers blocking the road or border but it is much WORSE and WRONG for Canadian government FORCING truckers to get experimental jabs that are NOT approved vaccines and have NOT completed long term testing to assure safe for humans and CDC VAERS database already shows 20,000 deaths and over 1 million people injured from VAX.And estimates are that database is under-reported by a factor of 10!

    Most people who catch COVID are vaccinated. The vaccines are not helping and are harming many people. When the tyrannical government allows freedom for truckers to make their own health decisions than maybe the truckers will unblock the road. But some people think the economy is more important than life-death medical decisions. Thank God most Canadians and Americans are behind the truckers and for FREEDOM. That is what America is all about!!! A little short term disruption for long term FREEDOM is well worth it. 1775 Revolutionary war was no different….long term freedom vs. short term war to end the risk of long term control/tyranny!

  40. XA351GT Says:

    Kit and I forgot to add I work with a Brit who is here because of how bad Britain’s government has been run for decades. He’d probably ask you if you’ve been using one of Biden’s free crack pipes the government is apparently going to be handing out.

  41. Wayne Says:

    I can just imagine the uproar in the U.S. if someone from Canada tried to interfere with or influence political and or social issues in their country. I just wish the idiots would mind their own business and go away.

  42. XA351GT Says:

    Alex , I agree , everyone should be allowed to make their own decisions on how they live their lives. Just as you can decide whether or not to smoke and drink even though both are known to cause health issues and can affect others around them In the form of 2nd hand smoke and drunk drivers injuring and killing people. You have the ability to eat yourself to death if you choose. Problem with government involving themselves is that it would never stop. I have no issues with those that CHOOSE to get vaccinated or not . It’s on them and they will have to deal with the results of those decisions .

  43. Wayne Says:

    Alex, most vaccinated people that are catching covid are suffering from much less severe affects and most covid patients in the ICUs are not vaccinated so your argument is full of misconceptions. You’re obviously an anti-vaxxer so any facts given to you will likely be ignored anyway but the vaccines used both in Canada and the U.S are fully approved by health officials. Unfortunately the vaccines are less effective against some variants that have arisen and the presence of variants is mainly due to people not getting vaccinated either by choice or not having access to a vaccine. If you had any knowledge of immunology, you wouldn’t be spouting such crap.

  44. Kit Gerhart Says:

    40 There are arguments for and against parliamentary vs presidential governments. I know people who have moved both to the US, and from the US to Europe, including the UK, partly because of the governments.

    As far as getting vaccinated, it’s more than a “freedom” issue. It’s a public health issue. If it weren’t for high vaccination rates, polio, rubella, measles, pertussis, and other diseases wouldn’t have been virtually eradicated. If 90 percent of population were vaccinated with these less-than-perfect vaccines, Covid would be almost a thing of the past.

  45. Wayne Says:

    42 – I agree that people should have a choice to get vaccinated or not but DO NOT have the right to risk the health and well being of the majority of the population that chose to get the jab or people that have a legitimate health reason for not being able to get it. There is a problem when the rights of the individual are perceived to override the rights and well being of the community as a whole. So if you choose to not get vaccinated you should be willing to suffer the consequences such as not being able to cross the borders.

  46. Wayne Says:

    44 Kit your second point is spot on. Those who argue against that just show their selfishness and lack of concern for others.

  47. Ukendoit Says:

    I just saw yesterday’s show with the revolutionary
    Tesla assembly. As Sean Wagner said, the breakthrough is the battery pack being a load-bearing structural element, and the seats already installed, but VW bugs used to be assembled nearly the same way; the “pan” had the engine, transaxle, floorpan, even the carpet installed. Most components were installed on it except for the seats. The body was dipped in paint and items such as glass and lights installed. Then the body was set ontop of the pan with a rubber gasket inbetween and bolted on. You can see the two meeting around 4 minutes into this video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7XBh6uuiD4

  48. MERKUR DRIVER Says:

    47) Yeah. It wasn’t really that revolutionary. Just a modernizing of a process that has been around for a while. Everything old is new again.

  49. Kit Gerhart Says:

    47,48 I’m wondering if the Tesla is designed to be disassembled for service, or if battery service will be done from underneath the car, or through the doors after removal of seats, console, carpet, etc.

  50. JR Says:

    I can understand the debate on vaccine mandates (but not blocking border crossings in protest), but I don’t get some people’s insistence on pumping out misinformation with respect to vaccine or mask efficacy. The data is readily available and clearly shows the benefit.

    Take a look at the University of Michigan health website as an example (since many of us are in Michigan). All 14 covid patients on ventilators are unvaxed. All 15 covid patients in the ICU are unvaxed. Of the 67covid patients in the hospital, 14 are vaxed with booster, 26 are vaxed, and 41 are unvaxed. Digging deeper, only 5 of the vaxed people aren’t high risk. Of the unvaxed, 30 aren’t high risk.
    If you want to argue that around 50% of hospitalization are vaxed, don’t forget that the population at large in this area is something like 70% vaxed, so if the vaccine didn’t help, you would expect 70% of the hospitalizations to be vaxed as well.

  51. Bob Wilson Says:

    Implicit in civil disobedience is arrest and incarceration. As for the trucks, I’ve seen semi-trailer tow vehicles that can impound them. BTW, their rights end at my nose, throat, and lungs.

  52. Kit Gerhart Says:

    50 Thanks for the actual data, which we rarely see.

  53. Mark J Brichacek Says:

    I have had enough of S65AMG insulting people like Kit and other long time posters of this forum. S65AMG needs to change his attitude or he needs to be deleted.

  54. XA351GT Says:

    Kit @ 44 There is nothing wrong with our 3 branch of government system when all 3 have equal powers , but when one (executive) is allowed to run over the public with unconstitutional mandates and edicts there is something wrong. I find it funny that those taking issue with the Freedom Convoy are now trying to use that as the reason for supply chain issues. When a lot of that is apparently due to The current administration paying back unions by having California locking out independent truck operators with rules that are extremely beneficial to union trucking companies.

  55. XA351GT Says:

    Quick poll How many have had COVID before the vaccines were available and how many got it after being vaccinated and after being boosted . How many are unvaccinated and never had COVID in the last 2 years ? Because the funny thing is here where I work ,those of us in the shop who had to be in work everyday for the last 2 years we only had one case of a unvaccinated getting the virus and they were back to work in a week. Yet in the span of one week 3 people fully vaxxed and boosted came down with it and also missed a week. In our office where most worked from home for the 2 years they had even more cases and they were all vaxxed to the teeth. So while I don’t doubt people got sick I think a lot had to due with co-morbidities on how bad they got hit.

  56. Kit Gerhart Says:

    54 As JR pointed out in #50 with real data, the vaccines work, though they are clearly not 100% effective.

  57. Kit Gerhart Says:

    53 Yeah, the executive, with the help of a tiny senate majority can set back progress a generation with lifetime appointments to the courts. Half of the population is represented by about 20% of the senate. This highly undemocratic feature of the US system is one thing that parliamentary systems don’t have. Of course, the US system has, historically done better than parliamentary systems in many ways.

  58. Lambo2015 Says:

    This constant argument that the unvax are a threat to public health is pile of crap the media has fed you guys and you swallowed it like the good little students.
    If your beloved Vax is so great and actually worked then when you get it you are protected and should not be affected by those that decide not to get it. If you trust your paper or cloth mask then you’ve protected yourself. If you stay home and quarantine then you are protecting yourself. And I know your first response is going to be the unvax is the ones causing the variants and there isn’t any proof of that. If there is other than some high school graduate/actor on a talk show spewing their opinion. We have flu variants every year and we will continue to have variants of covid for years to come. So we can all go on living in fear wearing masks distancing and periodic shut downs or just live life and realize its not that serious.
    If you haven’t noticed the CDC has back tracked on so much I cant even list it all here. The whole shut down was based off inflated numbers that have now been retracted and just like for the Superbowl When it comes to money they can offer a reprieve from all the restrictions. The folks that have made these mandates don’t even follow them. So many videos of them having parties unmasked and only putting a mask on right before stepping in front of a mic. The public is just tired of the nonsense. I understand they needed to do something to make everyone feel safe and if wearing a mask and distancing made people feel safe then great but there is enough data now to show that did very little if anything. Don’t let fear rule your decisions and the media loves to sensationalize and exploit fear. It sell and makes people tune in. That’s why every snow storm now is broadcast like its the blizzard of 78 all over again. I know I’m not going to sway anyone anymore than anyone s going to sway me. I just look around pay attention to whats happening around me. I have a few nurses in the family and know whats actually happening in the hospitals and not what gets released in the press. Lots of things are being done for money. Not because they are needed but because it helps the bottom line. So all I ask is ask yourself if money is involved when you see certain stats. Would anyone benefit from the stat being a certain way. Money is the root of all evil and people have done many horrible things for the sake of wealth.
    I like the saying “live Free or die”. I had CV twice now. As did everyone in our home. Only one person is Vax (because he is a Marine) and we all had basically the same illness and recovery. I’m the oldest and was sick the longest but still just took cold meds.
    If you feel the Vax will protect you then by all means go get it. But if you are then protected stop worrying what everyone else does.

  59. MERKUR DRIVER Says:

    54) Where I work 90% of the 3000 people are vaccinated and we all wear masks and keep social distance. There are more people out with Omicron than anyone can count both vaccinated and unvaccinated. It is the only vaccine I know of that does not vaccinate anyone LOL.

  60. XA351GT Says:

    Lambo, I would add to your point that a argument could be made that it is in fact the vaxxed that are the ones spreading the virus , They may have such mild symptoms they don’t feel all that ill at 1st and are spreading it high an low to both already vaxxed and unvaxxed. If anything this shot has turned them into modern day Typhoid Mary’s. Like I said I haven’t had the luxury of hiding from this virus and have lived my life as much as normal. Never was a big fan of crowds ,because most people suck to be honest. Just reading comments by those who would villify someone for their personal heath decision , but in the same breath say that it’s okey dokey to terminate a pregnancy under the My body ,my choice mantra.

  61. Kit Gerhart Says:

    A little actual data about vaccine efficacy.

    https://twitter.com/steventdennis/status/1491985200280186893?s=21

  62. Lambo2015 Says:

    50 Since I have family within Michigan Medial I’m also familiar with the stats of the staff. Which as everyone knows has a VAX mandate for their nurses. However interestingly enough within the last 7 days they have had 158 positive tests. A 7.60% positive rate. Not sure how that compares to the general public but seems they are not preventing anything.

  63. Lambo2015 Says:

    60 And in your “actual data” it just shows that the UnVAX are more likely to be hospitalized. Again proving that there medical choice affects them not you. No one ever argued that you have worse symptoms and many are willing to take that chance. Its the mandates that people are against. If you can explain the positive case stats differences from Florida with no restrictions and NY with some of the tightest then you have a case.

  64. JR Says:

    @57. The media problem in this case has been the right wing media that misrepresents data and give air time to anyone that wants to spread misinformation without having data to back it up. I typically get my news from network news and NPR, but I monitor Fox to see what they have to say. You can certainly argue that network news saturates us with coverage, but it has been factual. The science around covid, and thus our understanding of it has and will continue to evolve. That is normal. But if you watch right wing media sources like Fox, rather than explain why guidance is changing, they spin the story to make their followers belive mainstream media and science can’t be trusted. This is a major disservice to their viewers. It’s gotten to the point that many people don’t even understand that most of Fox News content is not intended to be factual. As Tucker Carleson’s lawyers said “No reasonable person would believe what he says is factual”.

    And to other posters, you are back to arguing against objective data using your own anecdotal data. Anecdotal data is often misleading, which is why science demands better.

    Try reading reputable fact check sites like Politifact. They get into the details of many of these false claims and list data and sources like proper journalist should. But of course, the same media personalities that admit they aren’t telling the truth probably convinced some of you that political can’t be trusted.

  65. JR Says:

    @61 Aa everyone already knows, the Vax doesn’t work as well with omicron, particularly without a booster. But the stats still prove that it is better than nothing. Do you know is the nurses have been required to get boosted? Last I heard, they were not.

  66. Ed Says:

    “ While we’re all for freedom of speech, we don’t think you have the freedom to start shutting down car plants and hurting other people’s livelihoods. ” but you agree that the government has the freedom through bureaucracy to force individuals to take a substance into their body against their wishes if they disagree!
    That is precisely what the Nazi (nationalist socialist party of Germany) did.

  67. Kit Gerhart Says:

    63 It affects everyone, and costs society money when the anti-vaxxers overwhelm hospitals.

  68. Lambo2015 Says:

    67 Let me know when that happens

  69. RS Says:

    Canada has never known anything like this group of insurgents who are trying to hold the entire continent hostage. Most protests have been more orderly and respectful with only a few violent offenders to mar the purpose of the event. This is very different. The rebels are refusing to comply with orders to respect the law of the land.
    Ontario is in the process of passing legislation that will allow for expensive fines, potential incarceration and revocation of personal and business licenses of anyone who takes over public rights of way. Thus cannot come too soon!

  70. RS Says:

    Canada has never known anything like this group of insurgents who are trying to hold the entire continent hostage. Most protests have been more orderly and respectful with only a few violent offenders to mar the purpose of the event. This is very different. The rebels are refusing to comply with orders to respect the law of the land.
    Ontario is in the process of passing legislation that will allow for expensive fines, potential incarceration and revocation of personal and business licenses of anyone who takes over public rights of way. This cannot come too soon!

  71. RS Says:

    Sorry, not sure why this was duplicated :(

  72. JR Says:

    @67 There is an interesting story on NPR right now about a women in Idaho who died of some sort of medical issue while unable to get into an ICU in any hospital in the region. They were all full in part due to all the Covid patients. So it does happen, although I haven’t tried to find any hard numbers.

  73. Larry S. Says:

    Point of fact, this shot is not a true vaccine. This shot doesn’t CURE anything. Lots of people have died on both sides of the shot equation. It is flat out NOT your choice, rigjt or difference of opinion as to whether or not another human being gets the shot or not. Period. There is no debate. Argue all you want, you have absolutely NO right to force, coerce or shame someone else to risk their lives for your OPINION. There are NO long term studies proving it to be safe long term or not. Remember how long our wonderful government also said Agent Orange was safe as well.

  74. Larry S. Says:

    Point of fact, this shot is not a true vaccine. This shot doesn’t CURE anything. Lots of people have died on both sides of the shot equation. It is flat out NOT your choice, right or difference of opinion as to whether or not another human being gets the shot or not. Period. There is no debate. Argue all you want, you have absolutely NO right to force, coerce or shame someone else to risk their lives for your OPINION. There are NO long term studies proving it to be safe long term or not. Remember how long our wonderful government also said Agent Orange was safe as well.

  75. Larry S. Says:

    Didn’t mean to double post, tried to correct a typo…